After Bottling Michigan’s Clean Water, Nestle Comes Under Fire For Ties To Snyder Admin

Nestle, which bottles 200 gallons of Michigan water per minute and has ties to the Snyder administration, has become a target for activists who don’t want the corporation to profit from the Flint water crisis.
By @KitOConnell |
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    FLINT, Michigan — As celebrities, corporations and citizens alike donates thousands of gallons of bottled water to the lead-poisoned residents of Flint, Michigan, Nestle, one of the world’s largest manufacturers of bottled water, has come under fire for its ties to the state’s water woes.

    The global food and drink giant teamed up with Wal-Mart, Coca-Cola, and Pepsi to deliver up to 6.5 million bottles of water to 10,000 school students in Flint. Celebrities including Madonna and Jimmy Fallon have pledged tens of thousands of dollars toward relief efforts.

    Although Nestle controls over 70 bottled water brands, some local activists are pushing back against the company’s involvement in relief efforts. On Sunday, New Era Detroit published a warning: “On the behalf of New Era Detroit we ask that you not purchase Nestle’s or Ice Mountain bottle (sic) water which is owned by Nestle.”

    Activist, documentary filmmaker and Flint resident Michael Moore elaborated on the connections between Nestle and Michigan’s government in a Feb. 1 report on The Huffington Post:

    “[Gov. Rick] Snyder’s chief of staff throughout the two years of Flint’s poisoning, Dennis Muchmore, was intimately involved in all the decisions regarding Flint. His wife is Deb Muchmore, who just happens to be the spokesperson in Michigan for the Nestle Company — the largest owner of private water sources in the State of Michigan.

    Nestle has been repeatedly sued in northern Michigan for the 200 gallons of fresh water per minute it sucks from out of the ground and bottles for sale as their Ice Mountain brand of bottled spring water. The Muchmores have a personal interest in seeing to it that Nestles grabs as much of Michigan’s clean water was possible — especially when cities like Flint in the future are going to need that Ice Mountain.”

    Nestle’s been embroiled in years of court battles over its water bottling activities in the state. Facing pressure from activist groups, the corporation agreed to reduce — but not eliminate — bottling in the state in 2009.

    The governor’s office was directly involved in encouraging the city to switch to the corrosive Flint River water that led to lead poisoning and other toxins in Flint’s water supply. Leaked emails reveal that Dennis Muchmore warned Snyder in September that the crisis could become a dangerous “political football.” Muchmore, who was Snyder’s chief of staff at the time, encouraged blaming city officials for the crisis. He also encouraged prompt action, telling the governor in another email that he was “frustrated” with the slow response:

    “These folks are scared and worried about the health impacts and they are basically getting blown off by us (as a state we’re just not sympathizing with their plight).”

    Indeed, Snyder’s office continued to deny the size and scope of the crisis until last month, even as state officials received bottled water for their own use.

    Whether or not the Snyder administration’s ties to Nestle influenced the government’s actions, bottled water donations alone will not fix the crisis. They do, however, provide much-needed good publicity for a corporation battling accusations of using slave labor in other markets and criticism of its high water use amid California’s drought.

    In an open letter on his website, Moore wrote: “Do not send us bottles of water. Instead, join us in a revolt.” Moore is among the activists demanding the arrest and removal from office of Gov. Snyder. As of Tuesday afternoon, his petition for Snyder’s arrest had received over 578,800 signatures.

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    • Kevin Sheets

      They didn’t. The failed to follow EPA procedure that requires the addition of organic phosphate to drinking water to coat the inside lining of lead pipes, common in older cities with lead pipes. This failure caused the erosion of phosphate already present in the pipes. Once the phosphate was eroded away the water was then directly exposed to the lead piping. The failure of the flint water department to follow EPA procedure directly caused the water problem. The second problem then became the slow reaction of the Michigan department of water quality to address the problem promptly. That exacerbated and prolonged the situation. Now, in order to fix the problem the city of Flint will have to pump millions of gallons of phosphate treated water through the system. People will have to regularly flush all of their water taps until the inside of the pipes reline with the phosphate coating. The state should absorb the cost of this as the residents of Flint had nothing to do with the problem. The state will also have to blood test the residents for lead, and where detected, provide medical EDTA treatments to remove the lead from their blood. Unfortunately I think it might be too late for that. Young children are exceptionally vulnerable to the effects of lead exposure. The situation is a travesty and could have been avoided.

    • Brenda Cowan

      FLINT water should not have to be DONATED to them at ALL……
      Being where they are located, they should never have dirty water…..EVER!!

    • Brenda Cowan
    • Brenda Cowan

      They are also taking water out of the aquifers in Aberfoyle, Ontario, Canada and are also trying to tap in to a beautiful little tourist town called Elora, Ontario…….stop supporting these people

    • D’wain Rebrab

      Doesn’t make clear that not only is Nestles bottling MI water, they are doing so at no cost.That is, the state is getting no money for this resource.

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    • Robert Taylor

      It’s time to test our own water for lead . If one republican governor has poisoned the people who is to say the other republicans aren’t doing the same. One town at a time. All bottling of water should stop until the issue in flint has been resolved period.

      • Kevin Sheets

        The state isn’t poisoning anyone. EPA procedure for city water suppliers is to add organic phosphate to the water to avoid water contact with lead pipes. When Flint started reusing their own water station they failed to add the phosphate. That is where the problem started. The states slow response was problem number two. And apparently there was a paper cover up at the state level. Problem number three.

      • Kevin Sheets

        If you live in a city receiving city water you should contact the city water supplier and request testing. If your house has lead pipes, or a lead feeder from the main you could have lead in your water. I was part of a volunteer group that had water sa.please taken every three months. My house was over 50 ppb which is way over the epa action limit. This was in the early 1990’s. Eventually the Epa figured out that using organic phosphate in the water coats the pipes inner lining preventing contact of the water with the lead. That is the present policy but please verify that your city conforms to the standard.

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    • jodylorenwilliams

      Nestle has had a case filed against them for the use of child slaves in production of their products.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQvEX2Xait4

      A group of people there found they could not get an honest hearing because of corruption in local courts. For that reason, they filed in California courts. Recently, they tried to have the case dismissed, but the court ruled against them. Meaning there is enough evidence to move forward. Walmart continues to carry these products. Demand Walmart stop benefiting from the pain of child slaves.https://www.change.org/p/walmart-boycott-nestle-s-products-because-of-child-labor Sign the petition on the link above.

    • The Gov is MARRIED to the spokesperson for Nestle & Ice Mountain WATER. We have been FIGHTING to stop them from stealing and selling our fresh water for YEARS~! I did not know he was married to her. This is SO MUCH WORSE~! Did they do this on purpose to drive profit? The billionaire class needs to be checked. The conflict of interest between government and corporations has reached a dangerous tipping point and that affects ALL of our health.

      • jodylorenwilliams

        A group of people there found they could not get an honest hearing because of corruption in local courts. For that reason, they filed in California courts. Recently, they tried to have the case dismissed, but the court ruled against them. Meaning there is enough evidence to move forward. Walmart continues to carry these products. Demand Walmart stop benefiting from the pain of child slaves.https://www.change.org/p/walmart-boycott-nestle-s-products-because-of-child-labor Sign the petition on the link above. Nestle has had a case filed against them for the use of child slaves in production of their products.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQvEX2Xait4

      • Hate Liberals? Bite Me.

        You may be thinking of Snyder’s Chief of Staff, Dennis Muchmore. He is married to the Michigan spokesperson for Nestle Company.

      • Kevin Sheets

        Not the governor. His chief of staff.

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    • Frank Rossman

      It is critically important that what happened in Flint never happen again. Please sign the Petition to establish April 25th as a State of Michigan “Day of Remembrance” for the Flint Water Crisis. On April 25th 2014 Mayor Dayne Walling pushed the button which switched Flint from treated Detroit water to corrosive Flint River water.

      http://www.thepetitionsite.com/772/666/412/petition-to-establish-a-state-of-michigan-%E2%80%9Cday-of-remembrance%E2%80%9D-for-the-flint-mi-water-crisis/

    • TecumsehUnfaced

      This ties into another problem.

      http://www.commondreams.org/sites/default/files/styles/cd_large/public/headlines/marcedwards.jpg?itok=ulHj22ld

      “I grew up worshiping at the altar of science, and in my wildest dreams I never thought scientists would behave this way,” said Virginia Tech professor Marc Edwards, whose research uncovered high levels of lead in both Flint, Michigan and Washington, D.C. (Photo: Jake May/The Flint Journal via AP)

      http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02/03/professor-who-exposed-flint-crisis-says-greed-has-killed-public-science

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    • TeeJae

      I’m already boycotting Nestle (ALL products, not just their water) for what they’re doing in California. This just solidifies my decision.

      • grannygrey50

        Nestle is draining quite a bit of the spring water in FL, and paying a 50 DOLLAR A YEAR permitting fee to take water and bottle it. Yet, many of our wells are deteriorating, becoming heavily contaminated, by Big Sugar and water being bottled…

    • Eugene Nicholas

      If it was any ordinary citizen, they would be already arrested, tried and convicted. These thieves, crooks, liars, and potential murderers, will not face anything because they are in the exclusive club of oppressors , and will walk without having any charges pressed against to them. They just made millions for their kind to cheer about.., just like the stock market that rings it in big!!!! Another win for the Super Rich at the cost of innocent unknowing and trusting, women, children, and men. How many lives have they ruined, permanently? Michigan take back your destiny and kick those alien life forms out!

    • Combat Override

      Water is donated and Michael Moore complains?

      Fine – just refuse to drink the water.

      No good deed goes unpunished.

      • TecumsehUnfaced

        How stupid! The donors are among the bandits that made the problem. So shill someplace else.

        • Combat Override

          Wal-Mart, Coca-Cola, Pepsi and Nestle caused the lead from aging pipes to leach into the water supply?

          • TecumsehUnfaced

            Did you read the article, shill?

            • Combat Override

              Every word of it.

              Wal-Mart, Coca-Cola, Pepsi and Nestle caused the lead from aging pipes to leach into the water supply?

              • TecumsehUnfaced

                Who put Snyder into office?

                • Combat Override

                  The ~1.6 million people that voted for him?

              • TecumsehUnfaced

                http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/34652-mitigating-the-harm-done-to-children-s-health-in-flint

                The creeps who did this were put into office by the creeps you are shilling for.

                • Combat Override

                  The elected officials of the city of Flint who made all of these dumb decisions?

                  • TecumsehUnfaced

                    You are liar. It was Snyder’s City Manager that made those evil decisions.

                    • Combat Override

                      “The Flint City Council’s approval of the Genesee County Drain Commission-backed idea to link Flint and a proposed multi-county connector effectively launched the greatest water war in Michigan’s history. The action ignores a credible state-sponsored study that came out against the ill-advised Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA) project.

                      … At issue is the reckless push for Flint to purchase untreated Lake Huron water through a new multi-million dollar intake pipeline and treat it at the city’s treatment plant
                      …The insistence of Flint officials to pursue construction of the KWA pipeline can only be attributed to a “political”objective that has nothing to do with the delivery–or the price– of water.”
                      http://www.dwsd.org/downloads_n/announcements/press_releases/pr2013-04-01_water_war_undermines_flint-dwsd_relations.pdf

                      • TecumsehUnfaced
                      • Combat Override

                        The US Attorney, FBI and EPA are all investigating. I look forward to their conclusions.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced
                      • Combat Override

                        Fixed? No evidence of that. Do you think Loretta Lynch will be covering things up for a Republican?

                        She’ll likely say he didn’t react soon enough. I wonder what she will have to say about the elected officials of Flint, who made all of these decisions.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        Why wouldn’t she? After all they belong to the right and left had of the same Deep State? Why do think Obama’s Justice Department has beenletting the obviously corrupt crook, Walker, play his sick games in Wisconsin?

                        You are just so gullible, right? Or any you just playing us for gullible?

                      • Combat Override

                        I’d recommend loosening that tin foil hat.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        Now you’re speaking your native language,,, SHILL!

                        But don’t feel bad about giving yourself away just now. It was already obvious.

                        Please continue speaking in Shill. I want you to be comfortable.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        Why don’t you go here and make your stupid, thuggish comments?

                        http://ecowatch.com/2016/02/03/fbi-flint-water-crisis/

                      • Combat Override

                        Thuggish?

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        Or Shillish. Dialects of the same language. Got you again.

                      • TeeJae

                        How many more links does Tecumseh need to provide before you understand it was the Emergency Manager who made the decision, not the city officials? Read through them (I’d recommend starting with fair.org) and then come back and talk to us.

                      • Combat Override

                        Gosh, nothing more interesting from links to fair.org, thinkprogress, ecowatch and truthout.

                        Maybe I can give him something from stormfront and he could comment.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        Wow! “Stormfront?” We know what kind of people yammers stuff like that.

                      • Combat Override

                        Exactly.

                        If one is looking for conspiracies and whacky news, one goes to whacky sites.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        Hey! I thought I could provoke you back to your native language, Shill. You were the only one stupid enough to bring up “Stormfront”.

                      • Combat Override

                        Ranks right up their with your information sources. Narrowly focused people go to narrowly focused places to affirm their whacko conspiracies.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        More Shill. Learn a new language.

                      • alykatma

                        There is proof the governor knew a year ago, when people started dying from Legionnaires disease, from contaminated water. He also trucked in fresh water for his employees. Meanwhile the folks paying for clean water get poisoned.

                      • Everyone does. Meanwhile hope people still do send them water as they need it. Just not Nestle or Ice Mountain!!!!

                    • Who do you think tells Snyder’s Emergency Manager Puppet what to do?

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        His mother? His Snyder?

                      • It’s Snyder’s puppet – I’m suggesting Snyder controls him

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        I agree. I was being facetious.

                      • haha Sorry! There are so many plants and troll comments, I missed that!

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        This is where Snyder finds his Emergency Puppets…

                        http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/ghouls-1.jpg

                  • Derrick Jordan

                    If you think the local residents are responsible, you are either ignorant or worse.

                    • Combat Override

                      Who said anything about the local residents? No, it’s the local politicians who made a series of bad decisions.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        Oh, i didn’t know that Snyder was a local politician of Flint. I thought he was your mother Shill.

                      • Combat Override

                        Snyder didn’t make any of those decisions. At best he can be accused of not reacting quickly enough to a problem that had already occurred.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced

                        More Shill.

                      • That’s not what Snyder says

                      • Combat Override

                        Snyder is taking responsibility because he is the gov. The entire “leadership” chain below him, including the 7 or 8 city council members who voted for this, are taking cover.

                      • No, you’re absolutely wrong about that. He installed emergency managers to do what he wanted all over the state. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it turned out like Flint.. He removed the power of all elected officials in most poor, black communities. The people they VOTED to represent them were rendered powerless.

                      • Combat Override

                        Nope. Not wrong. You are projecting your personal opinion to fit your preconceived beliefs.

                      • Read the law

                      • You are wrong. Read the law. Educate yourself. The only thing I’m projecting right now is anger at the results of this fascist em law. And at you for being an obvious shill.

                      • ModeBeast

                        Moron. City Manager is in Flint, the elected officials have no power, make no decisions. Republicans put the Emergency Manager rule in place by shenanigans, so the entire debacle rests solely on Gov. Snyder and his REPUBLICAN government. You are obviously an ignorant troll.

                      • Combat Override

                        Flint = all progressives. Detroit = all progressives. Decades of neglect and mismanagement of infrastructure and terrible decisions regarding water to the point of the City being a complete failure and totally economically collapsed and the only person the progressives can find to blame is the one Republican at the state level who showed up to help. Whatever. It doesn’t really matter what you think. Keep electing these dolts and trying to seek out the next scapegoat.

                      • WHAT does that have to do with basic clean water?! Who gives a $#%^ at the end of the day which letter goes after their name?!

                      • Combat Override

                        Unfortunately, a lot of people. see “modebeast” above. For this person, it’s all about how to avoid blame. Keep going up the chain of command to find a Republican and you’ve found your culprit.

                      • I will choose D every time

                      • Combat Override

                        Obviously. Just like most people from Flint for the past 50+ years. There will always be a (R) to blame somewhere. It could never be the fault of a (D) . Every major city that has failed under decades of (D) can never look at themselves.

                      • That’s not true. Both sides fail

                      • It does seem like there is always an R to blame. I’m never voting for one again. Ever.

                      • This particular issue is all R with hired D

                      • Combat Override

                        Nonsense. The only R is the Gov. Everyone else for decades in Flint has be Dem.

                      • Doesn’t matter what party they are when their powers are stripped. It’s an unconstitutional law. If you’re a real R, you should be up in arms against it like the people of Michigan

                      • Combat Override

                        Which constitution (MI or US) and what part?

                      • Combat Override

                        It should be pointed out that the Emergency Manager is also a Democrat.

                      • Cliff Rapert

                        The Emergency Manager was appointed by the Governor and has served repuglican interests for years, and continued to do that until a few days ago.

                      • It should also be pointed out that he’s a puppet who does what he’s told for money and NOW the same puppet is installed in charge of Detroit Public Schools~! STILL!

                      • You’re an obvious shill for republicans. You don’t live in Michigan. GTFO

                      • Combat Override

                        It’s obvious that you trying to take political advantage of people suffering.

                      • Me?! I live 30 miles from Flint! I don’t give a care whose party did it, my neighbors have poison water and this will affect our community for generations, long after I’m gone! Since it is well documented who did what, I certainly will never vote for any republican ever again for any position. No more balancing the ticket. Screw that!

                        Furthermore, this has gone on for 2 years with people writing letters which were thrown out for grammar or other nonsense excuses. They were not heard because the officials they elected were replaced with emergency managers who didn’t have to answer to anyone. Snyder has a $1.1B surplus which he got by stealing the pensions of Detroit city workers – my friends – and by switching Flint’s water and other atrocities. Wait till you see in the Detroit school system on Ellen DeGeneres show. Guess what emergency manager is in charge there? Darnell Early, the same guy as Flint water and I believe he calls himself D, but he’s just taking the money and doing what Snyder says.

                      • Combat Override

                        You seemed consumed with finding a R to blame. If you did live near there, you’ve probably never seen an R to vote for.

                        Yep, that’s the same Darnell Early.

                      • No, their power was stripped & replaced by “emergency managers”, The Gov is a fascist. Better learn about this as it could happen anywhere in the good ole USA

                      • Combat Override

                        The local politicians ran the city into the ground. They were incapable of spending money on their own so an emergency manager went in to watch over the money they borrowed. Their power wasn’t stripped – they made the decision to change their supply of water and the emergency manager didn’t object. That’s not fascism.

                      • TecumsehUnfaced
                      • You’re wrong. You need to read the Emergency Manager law and see how we voted it out, but Gov Snyder put it right back in. It IS fascism.

                      • Jamie Collins

                        From what I have read, you are correct, the local politicians proposed the idea of switching the water supply. The actual switch did not occur until after the city manager took control. Once the city manager took control, he made the decision to implement the proposal. You cannot be certain who failed to ensure the water would be treated properly unless you have access to the records (which I’m quite sure you don’t). Regardless, when it became clear the water was contaminated, both the city manager and the Snyder administration were negligent in how they responded to the crisis as well as warning their citizens about the potential health threats. Also, to counter your point that “The local politicians ran the city into the ground”, the cost of this crisis will escalate into hundreds of millions. So my question to you is: how is that City manager position working out that you are so artfully defending?

                      • Combat Override

                        I’m not defending any position, I was pointing out the facts on the ground. While this article is looking for evil in a bottled water company or in a governor who wasn’t involved in any of the decades of downfall that led to this, the real culprits seem to escaping criticism.

                      • Evelyn Herron

                        You’re talking about a mayor and city council that are no longer in office. Also, they might have assumed that the water would be properly treated, and it was not. Who dropped the ball on that one? Probably some state water control agency. E-mails are now being released that show officials in the governor’s office knew about the contamination for about a year before they did anything about it. They were shamed into acknowledging it by scientists outside their system who tested the water, and a pediatrician who monitored children’s lead levels. That’s how the story got out. Flint Residents were repeatedly told by State officials that the water was fine, and they should all drink it.

                  • Cliff Rapert

                    You really ARE an idiot. The elected officials had no hand in this whatsoever. They were allowed no decisions once the Governor’s Emergency Manager took over. He and the Governor’s office made the decision to use Flint river water

                  • alykatma

                    Emergency city manager made the decision to use polluted water

                  • No, the Gov put in a law to remove the elected officials and replace them with emergency puppet managers

                • Exactly~!

              • pat

                This is the most non-informative and disjointed article. I have no idea what they are trying to say.

                • Combat Override

                  They are throwing crumbs out there for people like tecumsehUnfaced to pick up and fill in the blanks for the conspiracy theories.

                • Gov is MARRIED to the spokesperson for Nestle & Ice Mountain WATER. We have been FIGHTING to stop them from stealing and selling our fresh water for YEARS~! I did not know he was married to her. This is SO MUCH WORSE~! Did they do this on purpose to drive profit? The billionaire class needs to be checked. The conflict of interest between government and corporations has reached a dangerous tipping point and that affects ALL of our health.

                  • Evelyn Herron

                    The Governor is not married to Deb Muchmore. His chief staff assistant is married to her. His name is Dennis Muchmore. He, however, was advising the governor while the original decisions were being made.

      • TecumsehUnfaced
        • Combat Override

          Mark Schauer, is that you?

          • TecumsehUnfaced

            Governor Snyder has a split personality? The better to catch the graft, eh?

      • obadiahorthodox

        just jail the bastards and nationalize the company. problem solved. capitalism sucks.

        • Combat Override

          Jail them for what? Donating water?

          • I’m sure the comment referred to the gov officials

          • Ed

            No, for stealing the water and then giving or selling it back to them.

            • Combat Override

              They didn’t steal water.

              They have a contract for that water with the govt, who was elected by the people of that state.

              • Ed

                My mistake, I was under the impression they were taking the water. Anyway it looks pretty fishy and suspicious they are bottling so much of water while the people of Flint were being poisoned with polluted water.

                • Combat Override

                  The two things are unrelated. The water that Flint is using is from the river and their pipes are leeching lead. The water the bottling companies are using is from a different source.

                  • Patrick Goodson

                    Why don’t you provide a link or source to back up that claim?

                    • Combat Override

                      There are multiple sources available for anyone wanting to do their own research.

                • Patrick Goodson

                  With what they pay the state for water, they are taking the water. Water is more important in the long run than oil and Nestle is “taking” water all over the country.

                  • ImWithDem

                    Exactly right and I don’t care if these stories are unrelated, that is one helluva great point that needs to be said often! Why is nestle and other water companies able to steal, bottle and sell our most precious resource: fresh drinking water?!

              • ImWithDem

                Except the government replaced elected officials with “emergency managers” and usurped all power. Vote straight ticket Democrat! GOP poisoned the water, took people’s pensions, robbed the public school systems. They have to GO!

                • Combat Override

                  Oh, geez. Everyone in the entire chain of command except the gov was a Democrat, including the emergency manager. Somehow only the Republican Gov gets the blame. Partisans are awful… and completely blind.

                  • ImWithDem

                    Ok you want a reason to blame him? Over 2 years later and he’s still not solved it! Filters ain’t gonna get it!

                    • Combat Override

                      It seems that he (and the legislature) have sent >$200M to resolve the issue, which was the result of decades of neglect. All 550 miles pipes are in the process of being replaced.

      • Did you read this article? It says the Gov is MARRIED to the spokesperson for Nestle & Ice Mountain WATER. We have been FIGHTING to stop them from stealing and selling our fresh water for YEARS~! I did not know he was married to her. This is SO MUCH WORSE~! Did they do this on purpose to drive profit? The billionaire class needs to be checked. The conflict of interest between government and corporations has reached a dangerous tipping point and that affects ALL of our health.

        • Ray Smith

          No, it is the governor’s former chief of staff — NOT the governor — who is married to a rep for Nestles.

          • Brenda Cowan

            same difference….all in bed together

        • Kevin Sheets

          Please re-read the article. The governor’s chief of staff, not the governor.

      • Rick Hillier

        Was it donated directly by Nestle or was it purchased by the people donating the water, thereby contributing to Nestlé’s pocketbook?

    • another creative

      Nestle has long been involved in unethical practices, but big money is beyond legal action in the USA, Money has rights, people do not, in the legal, political and social mentality of the USA.