The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told.
By @Justinkingnews |
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    (TFC) Washington, DC  – A church was shot up by a lunatic. The US government never lets a tragedy or crisis pass without attempting to find a new way to restrict the American people. So, we can expect a renewed push for gun control. There is a lot of propaganda about gun control. So much so that the truth has been lost.

    The National Rifle Association (NRA) would have you believe that guns stop murders. The gun control lobby would have you believe that gun control reduces murders. They are both wrong. Gun bans have always had the same effect once implemented: none. They do not create a (sustained) period of increased murders, nor do they reduce the rate of homicides. The gun control crowd is currently stomping their feet and screaming “No, it reduces violence! I’ve seen the statistics.” What you probably saw were studies that point to reduced instances of “gun murders,” not murder. The pro-gun crowd is screaming that gun bans cause crime. At least this is grounded in reality. Typically, there is a spike in murders immediately after a ban, but it is short lived.

     

    Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told. Let’s take a look at the data:

    United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

    Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

    Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.

    Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. Removing firearms does not typically create massive lawlessness. It is a moot point. These figures aren’t a secret. Why would the governments of these nations want a disarmed populace? For the answer, it is best to look at a nation that has had long-time gun bans that is currently relaxing their laws. Russia recently relaxed its firearms laws. For the first time in recent memory, a Russian citizen can carry a firearm. The prohibited items speak volumes about what a government’s motive behind disarming the population is. Russia has allowed “smoothbore long barrelled guns, pistols, revolvers, and other firearms, as well as Tasers, and devices equipped with teargas.” That’s almost everything, what is still banned? Rifles. So the Russian government has made it clear that the real objective is to remove rifles from civilian hands. The reasoning is pretty clear: you need rifles to overthrow a government.

     

    The Real Reason Gun Control Will Never Work:

    Poverty has a greater correlation to violent crime than access to firearms. Education and poverty are directly linked. In short, we don’t have a gun problem in the United States, we have a cultural problem.Home Depot. Most people in the gun control lobby know nothing about firearms or their construction. Everything you need to manufacture firearms is available at Home Depot. The materials needed to manufacture a 12 gauge shotgun cost about $20. If someone wanted to build a fully automatic Mac-10 style submachine gun, it would probably cost about $60. Every electrician, plumber, and handyman in the country has the materials necessary to manufacture firearms in their shop. The items are completely unregulated. They aren’t like the chemicals necessary to manufacture methamphetamines. How is the battle against that black market working out?

    We have a society that panders to the basest desires and instincts. One of those is violence. We live in a society where women are given dirty looks for breastfeeding in a restaurant, while over their heads on the wall-mounted television plays a movie that graphically depicts someone being tortured to death. We are desensitized to violence, and we have a generation of people that do not have the coping skills necessary to deal with reality.

    Firearms are the Pandora’s Box of the United States. The box is open, it can’t be closed through legislation. If you want to change society, you have to actually change the whole of society. You can’t blame an inanimate object that’s availability has absolutely no correlation to murder and expect to end violence.


    This article (The Facts That Neither Side Wants to Admit About Gun Control) originally appeared on The Fifth Column and was used with permission.
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    • Elfje Day

      Body cam is the best solution https://forceprovideo.com/

    • Faithskylar

      “Poverty has a greater correlation to violent crime than access to firearms. Education and poverty are directly linked. In short, we don’t have a gun problem in the United States, we have a cultural problem.”
      Pft. Yeah, right. I mean, you don’t see captured terrorists or psychopaths saying that they killed dozens of people just because they are in poverty. They either kill just for attention of the public, whether it is negative or positive, or they kill because of their negative emotions to that one person or group.
      And education and poverty are not directly linked. You could have someone who is highly intelligent that can get away with murder every single time, and they could live in a middle-class or poor environment. Heck, you could have a millionaire who isn’t that very intelligent hook up some people to kill others and no one would know it.
      The crime rate (for people who do not want to get shot or severely injured) would escalate if guns were banned in all cities and states. The crime rate for people who also don’t care if they get killed in the process, would also escalate, since the criminals and terrorists know that most civilians cannot defend themselves with legally purchased firearms.
      The crime rate (for people who do not want to get shot or severely injured) would decrease if some parts of the US hadn’t strictly banned firearms, and the crime rate for people who could care less about getting killed in the process would only decrease slightly. If everyone had a firearm, the terrorists would have less of a chance of doing mass shootings and causing extreme fear to the public.
      The problem with everyone having firearms, is that the terrorists will try and plot bigger plans to kill as much people as possible in one attack, which means that with a strong and protective shield, will eventually be smashed down by more powerful force.
      And yes, I know very well that guns are not the only weapon that can kill a person. There are poisons, knives, ropes, and anything else in the world that a person can get their hands on. People can die from strangulation if the person with murderous intent gets disarmed. But right now, this comment is for the sole purpose of guns.

      • Faithskylar

        Do you also really think that guns are just for shooting humans? People have to get their meat sources somewhere, and they aren’t really going to be chasing some of the most dangerous animals with a sharpened wooden spear. They would want to get as much distance from the animals as possible as to not disturb, or intrigue its interest. If I had to go hunting, I’d rather have a hunting rifle than going out and getting stabbed in the intestines with a male deer’s, moose’s, or reindeer’s antlers. trust me, being pierced by antlers and just lying there trying to get shaken off and thrown onto the ground would most likely feel far worse than getting shot with a bullet.

    • Scotty

      “Poverty has a greater correlation to violent crime than access to firearms. Education and poverty are directly linked. In short, we don’t have a gun problem in the United States, we have a cultural problem.”

      Education and poverty have nothing to do with each other. Intelligence has a ton to do with both poverty and academic success. A person’s prefrontal cortex doesn’t better regulate his actions by any amount of homework. That would be like playing basketball to make yourself taller.

      Also, poverty doesn’t create crime; crime creates poverty. How many businesses are going to stick around that neighborhood in Milwaukee that was looted and burned?

    • Bluesman1950

      “Since over 45,000 police are killed and injured in the line of duty each year”

      45,000? More Jarhead idiocy.

      “Of the 49,851 officers who were assaulted in 2013, 14,565 (29.2 percent) sustained injuries.”
      https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2013/officers-assaulted/assaults_topic_page_-2013
      Deaths 130.
      https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2015

      • jarhead1982

        So we see the number was higher, thanks for proving yet again why cops are so likely to shoot perverts like you…..

      • jarhead1982

        By the way blue balls, since there were only 37.3% of all 19,335 police agencies reporting data in 2013, maybe you can explain with proper govt. data link where the data on assaults and killings is a hard count or estimate moron…..oh wait…..

        Since the count is a hard count of what was reported, and deaths are always also reported regardless of the individual agency reporting not posting all their crime data, we see that only 37.3% of all assaults aggravated and such upon police are reported….

        Yet the brain damaged by too much sugar in the donuts whoore in the UK wants everyone to believe that count he posted is the actual totals…ROTFLMFAO……what a moron

    • Mike Breen

      And I am free to leave, you are not. You are the slave.

      • jarhead1982

        But you refuse to leave hence you prove yourself a liar yet again, and again, and again , and again, and again….

        • Mike Breen

          Yet more insane gibberish, this time from a man owned by his government and not free to leave. They might give him a free pass though, but who would have him and his rotten brain?

          • jarhead1982

            Come on coward walk your talk and leave, you brag about that which you yourself are too chicken schiite to do

    • Mike Breen

      Strange. A police officer getting killed in the line of duty is a rarity here in the UK, despite not killing any threat as a precaution.

      • jarhead1982

        Strange, we have the right to defend ourselves, you do not…..and since aggravated assault upon anyone, even officers can be fatal if not permanently crippling, you insist the criminals have superior rights to inflict whatever deamage or death they wish, why is that pervert?

        • Mike Breen

          Still telling lies to people who he know he is lying. How mad is that? Jarhead1982, proof that the welfare state is far from always a good idea.

          • jarhead1982

            Yeah you are still telling lies, and since the goat syphillis has clearly rotted your brain it is clear to all sane people you haven’t the intellect to discern truth from your fantasies oh brain damaged pedo

            George Soros has clearly overpaid for your services

    • Mike Breen

      “”United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.””

      Yet another case of presenting what was nothing more than a tweak to already very strict gun laws as proof that gun control does not work, and so such a ban in the USA would also not work. That is my beef with the pro gun brigade. It’s not so much that I disagree with their ideas, it’s their failure to be honest.

      Every single person I have seen on those boards who has argued for guns for all has been somewhere between ignorant, dishonest or flat out mad, such as jarhead1982. They are not making the case for gun freedom, they are making a case for gun control!

      This is a classic, the UK gun ban did not work=gun control does not work. Complete and utter rubbish. Of course it changed nothing of any great significance in the UK, because those few guns owned by a tiny minority were not of any significance!

      • legaleagle45

        Take it back to 1920 when the UK first implemented modern gun control legislation (supposedly as a “crime control” measure but actually in response to fear by the ruling class about what was happening in Russia).

        The homicide rate in the 10 years previous to the gun control legislation was higher than the homicide rate in the following 10 years.

        But you are right, the USA has always had substantially more firearms per capita than the UK — even before 1920. In fact most historians believe that the USA was the most heavily armed country in the world based upon private ownership of firearms from its very founding.

        In order to change that statistic, what you need is a law for the mass confiscation of firearms in the USA— but no one wants to take your gun, right?.

        • Mike Breen

          I’m not even going to try playing statistics any more. I know one thing for sure….The 1997 act, the one Americans think was the mass disarming of the UK population leaving them defenceless and angry, didn’t even happen.

          • legaleagle45

            Correct.. that disarmament movement began with the Game Act of 1671– which was temporarily stopped by the Glorious Revolution in 1689 then went unabated thereafter.

            The fact is that gun control had nothing to do with it.. as is documented by this article.

            • Bluesman1950

              “But you are right, the USA has always had substantially more firearms per capita than the UK — even before 1920. In fact most historians believe that the USA was the most heavily armed country in the world based upon private ownership of firearms from its very founding.”

              Which is why the USA, with higher levels of violence than the UK, despite what some try to allege by comparing different levels of assault , has a homicide rate 5 times that of the UK. Firearms make it much easier to kill people.

              The 1997 Act was not, as this article dishonestly pretends, a failed experiment to disarm the previously armed UK. It was simply a tweak to already effective laws which have helped keep our murder rate so low. Americans need to be aware that Britons overwhelmingingly do not want widespread ownership of firearms.

              • legaleagle45

                Firearms or the lack thereof have little to do with it. Which is why our non firearm homicide rate is also substantially higher than the overall homicide rate in the UK.

                Firearm ownership rates does not create a straight line correlation with homicide rates… in fact if you eliminate the USA as an outlier, there is no correlation between homicide rates and firearm ownership rates. Thus, Switzerland has a much higher firearm ownership rate than the UK and has a substantially lower homicide rate— same with Norway.

                The tweak in 1997 had no impact as did the legislation enacted in 1920. Your low murder rate is more a result of cultural factors than its firearm ownership levels.

                • Bluesman1950

                  It is probably both! I would rather not try the experiment of passing a 2nd. Amendment law in the UK and waiting to see what happened!

                  I’m not sure in what other country I would have felt happy being a police officer for 30 years without carrying a gun.

                  • legaleagle45

                    The 2nd amend is modeled upon a similar article found in the English Bill of Rights passed in 1689.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      But we had the sense to get rid of it. Muskets might not be a huge problem but AK47’s could be!

                • Bluesman1950

                  “France where more people have died of mass shootings in 2015 alone than in the USA during Obama’s entire term.”

                  Really? http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting.

                  • GAU-8

                    You might want to research that site better…..some of their “events” have zero deaths…it is a known left wing anti gun web site prone to convenient error

                    • Bluesman1950

                      That website only lists, on its ‘Mass Shootings’ page, incidents in which 4 or more people were shot. I know that pro-gunners try to restrict that definition to only those incidents with 4 or more deaths, but they would be ‘mass murder’.

                      The record of children under 12 shot (620 so far this year!) does include all incidents of death or injury, but listed separately.

                      Feel free to point out any of those “convenient errors” you can identify.

                      • GAU-8

                        Mass shooting is a media term

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Mass shooting is a media term”
                        And one which Legaleagle was apparently happy to use.

                        So what would you call 8 people being shot?
                        http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/33744655/man-arrested-in-birthday-party-mass-shooting
                        How many more would be needed to make it a mass shooting? 10, 50, 100?

                      • GAU-8

                        Aggravated assault…attempted murder…I’m not swayed by emotional labels.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Don’t forget the 8,124 actual shooting murders either. Or is ‘murder’ too much of an emotional label for you?

                      • GAU-8

                        Murder is the crime. The method is just that, the method; blame the criminal not the method.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        8,124 murders committed with guns last year. So many criminals!

                      • GAU-8

                        Everytown. Seriously, you are better than that. A notorious anti-gun front with erroneous data.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So post your statistics.

                      • GAU-8

                        A child at 18? I think not. recut the numbers to exclude gang members.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Well, 622 under- 12s (do you count them as children) shot so far this year.

                        I’m sure you will post some alleged statistical proof that most children in the USA were not shot and therefore none of the 622 were significant, but I find that less than convincing. After all, most Americans didn’t die on 9/11.

                      • Ron

                        Both you and Breen must be smoking some mind altering substance if you believe your “statistics” are accurate.

                        In 2013 the Centers for Disease Control National Vital Statistics Report records the following data on this subject, you can look it up for yourself at the link below.

                        Accidental deaths by firearm, all ages: 505
                        If we add just the number of “children” (age 0 to 24): 176

                        Intentional deaths by firearm, all ages (homicide): 11,208
                        If we add just the number of “children” (age 0 to 24): 3,897

                        You folks are willing to subordinate the actual facts with what you want to believe as provided by people like “Everytown”, which is just plain stupid. “Everytown” intentionally and maliciously skews the data to meet the needs of their political agenda, and the truth is not even on the list of their priorities. By repeating those intentional falsehoods you are just as culpable as they are for these lie’s.

                        http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

                      • Bluesman1950

                        622, so far this year, is the number of children under 12 shot, not just those killed.

                        Of course the CDC figures you quote show only deaths, not injuries. The clue is in the title ‘Deaths: Final Data for 2013’

                        “If we add just the number of “children” (age 0 to 24): 176″
                        You count people of 23 as children? And you accuse me of taking drugs!

                        In 2013 there were 69 accidental shooting deaths of under 15’s
                        There were 193 firearms homicides of under-15’s
                        That’s 262 under-15’s shot dead.
                        Page 41: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

                        Unintentional Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100,000
                        2013, United States, All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 14
                        Disposition: All Cases
                        538
                        Violence-Related Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100,000
                        2013, United States, All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 14
                        Disposition: All Cases
                        1,174

                        https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html

                        So in 2013, according to the CDC 1,712 under-15’s were shot and wounded. 262 were shot dead. A total of 1,974 under-15’s shot and wounded or killed.

                        Makes the Mass Shooting Archive, which only counts 622 under-12’s this year look pretty modest!

                      • Ron

                        The “Mass Shooting Archive” is a political organization, not a research one. I dont determine how the CDC lists the ages, they do. I just work with the figures they present.

                        “There were 193 firearms homicides”. I am a retired federal law enforcement officer, and I have never seen a “firearms homicide”, not one. I am not one of the sheeple that you are trying to convert to your agenda, I am well educated and have a great deal of experience in the field, and I can spot both a lie and an agenda with equal ease. A homicide is a homicide, the weapon used to perpetrate it is only a detail, not a cause for action. I cant put the gun in jail, nor the shovel, club, or poison, only the criminal who used them. That gun control lie has been thoroughly exposed for what it is. But feel free to keep telling it, makes it easy to determine the agenda behind its use.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “I have never seen a “firearms homicide”, not one.”
                        Ignoring the means by which a homicide is committed may be convenient for your arguments but the fact that the homicide rate in your armed country is 5 times our unarmed one and that guns are used in 60-70% of your homicides, compared with around 5% in the UK is just burying your head in the sand.

                        Of course nobody thinks that the weapon is responsible for the crime and that simple-minded strawman is getting very tired. ‘Firearms homicide’ is convenient shorthand for ‘a homicide committed by means of a firearms’. The significant point is that guns make it much easier to kill and wound people, particularly in large numbers and at a distance, than knives, clubs, punches etc.

                        In the ‘Gun-controlled’ UK you are 68 times less likely to be murdered by means of a firearm than the USA.

                      • Ron

                        Interesting, so the UK has a gun problem, thanks for telling us.

                        The UK is no utopia, your own citizens are organizing to force the government to repeal the irrational firearms laws that have been forced on them by far left and scared politicians. Much as the liberal press try to ignore the movement, to down play it, to minimize it, it is growing. They know that gun control is failed policy, that their own country is far more violent than most, the USA included. “Britain has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe, more so than the United States or even South Africa. They also have the second highest overall crime rate in the European Union. In 2008, Britain had a violent crime rate nearly five times higher than the United States (2034 vs. 446 per 100,000 population).” (The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S., Daily Mail, July 3, 2009). That’s a pretty sad statistic.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Interesting, so the UK has a gun problem, thanks for telling us.”
                        Is that news to you? Who ever claimed we had no gun problem? It is just miniscule in comparison to yours.

                        “The UK is no utopia, your own citizens are organizing to force the government to repeal the irrational firearms laws that have been forced on them by far left and scared politicians. ”
                        I don’t know anybody who has ever claimed that the UK was Utopia, except pro-gunners building strawmen.

                        Perhaps you have fallen for the silly hijacked ‘Daily Telegraph’ online poll which has no validity whatsoever. There is absolutely no significant movement amongst the population of the UK to repeal our firearms legislation. 3 petitions to Parliament for that specific purpose raised less than 2000 signatures between them. 2 surveys by reputable organisations have shown at least 92% of Britons in favour of keeping the same, or stronger, controls.

                        As for the Daily Mail nonsense which failed to notice that only aggravated assaults in the USA were being compared with ALL assaults, however trivial, in the UK, it made an eye-catching headline, frightened old ladies and confused Americans, but was otherwise worthless. It’s not a sad statistic, it’s just a lie.

                        Britain wants to keep the firearms controls that it wanted Parliament to introduce.

                      • Mike Breen

                        There is no sizable number wanting to reform the law. The law most speak of was the 1997 act which effectively banned hanguns from one in a thousand of the population and that tiny minority were never allowed to own those strictly licenced guns for defence.

                        As to UK violent crime, it’s tiresome to have to continue to point out that this figure is caused by the way the UK records a huge amount of petty nonsense under the category of violent crime, up to snd including a nasty email.

                      • GAU-8

                        And your point? Shall we go with CDC facts?

                        57% were accidental
                        43% were the result of violence

                        Accidents are the result of negligence, much like the child backed over in their driveway.

                        Which BTW an equal number are killed annually in back overs and nearly 20x as many injured versus both accidental and violence related gun incidents combined.

                        Or do we stack that against the 2.5 times as many that accidentally drown, and 10x injured by accidental drowning?

                        It’s clear cars and pools are more dangerous. And there are 30x less pools per capita, and 40% less cars per capita.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So, no problem then? Well done!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “It’s clear cars and pools are more dangerous. And there are 30x less (sic) pools per capita, and 40% (sic) less cars per capita.

                        Oh well, since there are other things more dangerous than guns let’s ignore guns.
                        Since terrorism is far less dangerous than guns, swimming pools and cars let’s ignore terrorism as well!

                        Funny for someone who lives in Montana and carries a gun because he is, apparently, worried about the local wildlife attacking him, despite the fact that such attacks are phenomenally rare.
                        Average Number of Deaths per Year in the U.S
                        https://historylist.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/human-deaths-in-the-us-caused-by-animals/

                        Bee/Wasp 53
                        Dogs 31
                        Spider 6.5
                        Rattlesnake 5.5
                        Mountain lion 1
                        Shark 1
                        Alligator 0.3
                        Bear 0.5
                        Scorpion 0.5
                        Centipede 0.5
                        Elephant 0.25
                        Wolf 0.1
                        Horse 20
                        Bull 3

                        So, since Montana only has a homicide rate 3.5 times that of the UK and you have a vanishingly small risk of wildlife attack, you don’t need those guns any more than Americans need to stop shooting children, deliberately or accidentally, or leaving guns where the kids can shoot themselves!

                        I’m convinced!

                      • GAU-8

                        I know the whole idea of rights is beyond your meager mind to comprehend so quit now.

                        Please stay in the UK, I wouldn’t want you to wet your panties visiting the evil colonies.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes you keep exercising those rights and don’t let the piles of bodies and wounded children worry you. It’s your right!

                        Please stay in the USA, I wouldn’t want you to wet your panties visiting the evil UK where you can’t carry a gun to protect yourself from Muslim rapists.

                      • GAU-8

                        I will. Given I have absolutely no idea how you think law abiding citizens are to blame for gun crime.

                        Tell me do you blame all drivers for every drunk driving accident?

                        I know, we can apply your logic…ban cars and eliminate car accidents. Ban kitchen utensils. Or some other nonsense.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        If our drunk driving accidents were 68 times higher than they are, as your shooting homicides are, we might be taking even more serious steps than we do now.

                      • GAU-8

                        So you blame all driver? Do you blame those young girls for getting themselves assaulted too? Sharia law might be for you

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Just think that allowing people carry guns around is like letting them drive drunk. Accidents do seem to happen.

                      • GAU-8

                        Actually you don’t restrict them from driving drunk. You punish them if they are caught breaking the law and are convicted.

                        We behave the same way. We don’t restrict rights of the peoole based on what they could do.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        In the UK if you are convicted of driving with excess alcohol you are normally disqualified from driving for a minimum of one year, so you are not allowed to drive at all. That doesn’t prevent the original offence, but serves to act as a preventative measure against further offending. Of course some offenders will carry on driving, despite the ban, but that renders them liable to arrest and further punishments, including prison.

                      • GAU-8

                        You are like a brand new 2nd. Lt. on his first land nav.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “You are like a brand new 2nd. Lt. on his first land nav.”
                        I’m sure that means something to you.

                      • GAU-8

                        Lost

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Ah, you’re obviously thinking of the US Army.

                      • GAU-8

                        Lost is lost, and your meandering statements certainly verify you are navigating these pages without a map.

                      • Faithskylar

                        I’m sorry, but are you seriously this dumb? Since when have you heard that a drunk person remembered not to go into a car and drive it while drunk? It is by little to none. When you are drunk, you have vague recollection of memory and cannot process everything that is happening right when it is happening. Sure, people while not drunk will remember to not go and drive right after they drank a lot, but when they are drunk, they won’t remember what they first thought before they entered the bar. If only some people could bring a friend over that doesn’t like to drink to keep an eye on them and make sure to drive them home while they are still a bit loopy, the amount of drunk driving accidents would probably decrease.
                        Also, if the US restricts access to guns, the people who really want to have and use a gun for illegal purposed will find a way to get them, and that is known as the Black Market. If the law abiding citizen has no guns and criminals are still finding ways to get their hand on illegally purchased guns, then what good does that do? NONE. The crime rate will shoot right on up, and no one can do anything about that. It would be too late before the police arrive and hopefully “take care of business”. So just shove those poor excuses to restrict guns back into your cringy little mouth, and just shush for once. Unless you actually have a valid reason and EVIDENCE to support your opinion, then I would just suggest being quiet.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        I have not the least problem with Americans having guns and shooting each other. It’s your right after all! The 700 or so American children shot every year, the 8000+ homicides committed with firearms, the total gun deaths, which almost match those on your roads are your problem.

                        What I do object to is Americans telling us that we in the UK are unsafe because we don’t have or need guns, despite the fact that we are 5 times less likely to be murdered than you and over 60 times less likely to be shot dead.

                      • Faithskylar

                        I’m sorry, but there has only been 2 shootings in my neighborhood, and that was it for getting hit by a gun. It has almost been a year since those two have come up, and no other shootings have been recorded in this town. And if everyone had at least 1 firearm, the total amount of deaths or shootings per year would decrease. Now, I can understand that accidental shootings may increase, because kids like to sneak around and look for things, and they might see a gun. They might not even check to see if it has bullets in it or not, they grab it and pull the trigger, and they may accidently shoot themselves or someone else who is in the same room as them. You also must count the amount of people that tried or have committed suicide by shooting themselves.

                        But anyways, back to just criminal shootings. According to http://gun-control.procon.org/, if our gun rights are completely taken away, criminals who buy guns through the black market will increase, and the death toll from guns throughout the United States will escalate massively. If we have no guns, criminals will find it to be much more easier to kill people and rob people since we will not be able to defend ourselves. WHILE WE ARE STILL IN OUR HOMES. If we have guns, the criminals will fear more that they will get shot if they try to hurt or steal from someone. According to http://www.infowars.com/18-little-known-gun-facts-that-prove-that-guns-make-us-safer/, the more guns made and sold legally in the United States, the less crime there is throughout the country. For more proof, this website also says that over the past 20 years, gun sales have absolutely exploded, but homicides with firearms are down 39 percent during that time and “other crimes with firearms” are down 69 percent.
                        And yes, in the UK it may be 5 times better than being in the US, but here in the US is different. We are under different categorized laws and ideals. The UK may be safer with no one having guns, but if a terrorist attack suddenly happens and the police don’t have any firearms to at least find and take down the terrorist(s), then they will get away with a massive shooting and/or bombing. That is hypothetically, of course. It may or may not happen.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Funny, everyone here who is pro-gun seems to live in a fantastically safe place where there is practically no crime or violence. That all happens somewhere else apparently. Nonetheless, if they don’t have guns to protect themselves they will be overwhelmed by a tide of homicidal criminals. Still, as I have said, keep your guns and feel safe. We will do without them and be safer.

                        Actually, we do have specialist armed units in the UK police who would be called upon in a terrorism situation. Most UK officers however, are not armed with firearms and do not want to be. Taking a gun into an otherwise unarmed situation, as the vast majority of incidents are, just increases the risks.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Colony? You mean the worlds biggest open prison? I wonder of they will ever come right out and say that you are not free to leave? You should visit, it might leave you feeling slightly foolish. You should take a walk, the coast to coast path. You’ll be perfectly safe, which is not the case in the USA.
                        As your own man Bill Bryson said of the Appalachian trail…”and of course being the USA, there have been murders”. It’s all very odd that a country with so many murders and so many not feeling safe without a gun, insists the UK is so much more dangerous.

                      • GAU-8

                        Here’s all the F#cks I don’t give.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Temper temper!

                      • GAU-8

                        How are those refugee rape gangs working out for you, Germany and Sweden?

                        What did they try to cover up in Rotherham? How many more cover ups are out there?

                        Wasn’t it you that talked about extreme value theory? You might also want to parse out self defense from your numbers? And wasn’t it you that admitted UK had higher violence and rape rates? Which are orders of magnitude greater than homicide rates? Overall…per your admission the UK is more dangerous…not even including your notorious under reporting of crime? How many number did you fudge while an active cop?

                        Have you come across a bear or mountain lion? Of course not…your greatest risk is a fox. Or maybe an irate hedge hog.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Overall…per your admission the UK is more dangerous…”
                        You are obviously thinking of someone else!

                        Keep on banging on about sexual abuse, which you know about because it has been uncovered and dealt with. Obviously there is no sexual abuse, uncovered or otherwise, in the USA (except of course that 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys in the USA is a victim of child sexual abuse; https://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics ) It takes the attention off your horrific rates of homicide and the shooting of 623 children so far this year.

                        “How many number did you fudge while an active cop?”
                        None, but then I didn’t work in the LAPD. “The Los Angeles Times analyzed eight years of LAPD crime data and found that aggravated assaults had been routinely classified as “simple assaults” and therefore weren’t counted in the city’s numbers tallying violent crime.”
                        http://time.com/4074896/los-angeles-crime-rates-higher-assaults/

                        Of course, that problem only affects the LAPD and only in respect to assaults doesn’t it? I mean there must be, as in the UK, a rigorous system of national inspection and reporting on of all your 17,000+ police organisations large and small. Although their reporting to the FBI is entirely voluntary someone checks up on them and publishes the results, don’t they?

                        “Have you come across a bear or mountain lion? Of course not…your greatest risk is a fox. Or maybe an irate hedge hog.”
                        So, do tell, What gun do you carry daily to deal with bears? How many times have you used your firearm to defend yourself from all of those dangerous animals?

                      • GAU-8

                        Read your replies. You’ll find it. Seriously, that denial is pathetic.

                        You have a spare tire? Why? For the one or two flats you might get over 30 years. You have fire extinguisher? For the 0.03% chance of a fire?

                        Hiking alone in bear country. No really, come to the US and enjoy. However, I’ll continue to exercise my right.

                        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a598b9376aaa500ebd69437664a9c93f3bf28591ff027c948837e84fc2868cc4.jpg

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Any pictures of the ones you have had to shoot to save your life?

                      • Faithskylar

                        If you cannot put out a fire fast enough before it gets too large or spreads out too much, can be deadly. There is a reason why all rooms in schools and buildings have a fire extinguisher nearby. And even though a spare tire would most likely not be needed in an emergency, you still don’t know if your tire will go flat. Some roads are hardly ever driven on in the US, it almost seems abandoned. If you got a flat tire, it would be even worse if your phone did not have any service. No phone service = no chance to call 911 or a nearby towing company. You might be a couple of miles away from the nearest town/city, or you might not even be 100 miles near a city. So would you rather take the chance of being able to use a spare tire, or be stranded in the middle of nowhere?
                        Yeah, that’s what I thought.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Thank you for your explanation of the need for fire extinguishers and spare tyres, although, having used both, I was already quite familiar with the principles underlying them.

                        What I do not need, however, is a gun, because I live in a country where very few people have access to guns and the murder of an ordinary member of the public by use of a firearm is extremely rare. That is why I was able to be a frontline UK police officer for 30 years and never carry a gun.

                        The chances of being shot would be greatly increased if we had hundreds of millions of guns around in the way that you do.

                      • Faithskylar

                        Well the USA is different than the UK. A LOT different (although our government is trying to make us like you with the gun control and the brainwashing). In our Constitution and our Bill of Rights, the 2nd Amendment clearly states, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” We take our rights seriously, and if our rights are infringed, the people will either gather a peaceful rally and protest, or they will take things into their own hands and start shooting people up. That is also why Chicago is the highest death rate by guns for just one city. Chicago strictly limits the people’s guns rights, and the people rebel in protest. Also many of the shootings may also be from criminals taking advantage of the gun control laws, and they are doing their happy dance for the people who clearly think what their thinking is brilliant, but what is extremely wrong. Sure, the UK is a happy place without everyone having guns, but if the US government decides to revoke the 2nd Amendment, the people will freak out and we will end up in another civil war.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Well the USA is different than the UK. A LOT different”
                        Well, for a start you have 5 times our murder rate.

                        “…the people will freak out and we will end up in another civil war.”
                        At least you’re already tooled up for one.

                      • GAU-8

                        Have I come across bear or mountain lion? Yes.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        And you had to kill them in order to save yourself?

                      • GAU-8

                        Which you prefer? To need and not have or have and not need.

                        Luckily we have the right to choose for ourselves

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So you’ve never actually had to defend yourself from a bear. What a relief!

                        So you only carry a gun when in danger from bears. That sounds sensible.

                      • GAU-8

                        Unlike you I’m a normal human and not blessed with pre-cognition. “Minority Report” must be looking for you.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You haven’t shown me the statistical risk of being killed by a bear in the USA, but since it is around 60 times less than that of being killed by a dog, which is itself less than one in nine million, it must be a very impressive-looking number! Still, you can’t be too careful can you.

                      • GAU-8

                        No. But then again I don’t have to justify my lawful exercising of my rights to anyone, nor am I apologetic for doing so. So yes I carry, and it’s a big 45_70 with 405 gr. hard cast.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        No you don’t have to justify it. It must be heavy to lug about though, what with the fire extinguisher you must carry all the time, given that you are over 6,500 times more likely to die in a fire than be killed by a bear. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!

                      • GAU-8

                        Slowly understanding rights? Next we will work on proper use of data.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes, please explain why our lack of firearms is totally unconnected with our tiny firearms homicide rate again. I love a good laugh.

                      • GAU-8

                        Please explain why your homicide rate is totally unrelated to your gun confiscations and restrictions. That is the correct comparison. Like the unfortunate Harvard professors you have made the same error by constructing a poorly formed analysis. Was the intent to reduce crime or reduce gun crime? If the latter all you have done is proven criminal behavior is unaffected by method availability, and while your psyche may have soothed by the low firearm homicide rate the effect on real homicide rate was totally unaffected, so instead of a small percentage of firearm homicides there are a greater percentage of knife homicides. Your overall homicide rate remains unaffected. If you draw some sense of accomplishment from that, great. My hypothesis has always been there is no correlation between your homicide rate and gun control laws, and you continue to prove my statement true time Anna time again. Like the left wing double speak so common in the US you feel interjection if the word “firearm” somehow vindicates you. It doesn’t, it is merely another demonstration of how progressives mislead the public in their march for statism. While the UK may gleefully surrender their rights to the State there are a significant and growing percentage in the US that won’t.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        ” Like the unfortunate Harvard professors you have made the same error by constructing a poorly formed analysis.”
                        Yes, when will those ignorant Harvard professors learn to think as clearly and objectively as you?

                        “…all you have done is proven criminal behavior is unaffected by method availability,…”
                        So why does the USA with wide firearms availability have a firearms homicide rate 68 times that of the UK with very limited firearms availability? I know that the USA is far more violent than the UK , but , even then, why do we murder so few people? Why do we so rarely use guns to do it?

                        “… instead of a small percentage of firearm homicides there are (sic) a greater percentage of knife homicides.”
                        Whilst knife homicides are a greater proportion of our much lower overall rate, your knife homicide rate is also far higher then ours.

                        “My hypothesis has always been there is no correlation between your homicide rate and gun control laws,”
                        And our gun-controlled country has 1/5th of your homicide rate and, recently, 1/68th of your firearms homicide rate. Perhaps you need a new hypothesis.

                        “While the UK may gleefully surrender their rights to the State there are a significant and growing percentage in the US that won’t.”
                        And while the USA may gleefully surrender their rights to life to the gun lobby, there is an overwhelming percentage in the UK that won’t.

                      • GAU-8

                        Good question, ask them. My guess is when they stop getting funded by anti – gun groups.

                        Again…..you have continue to prove yourself gleefully ignorant.

                        Learn what correlation is … I know it’s a stretch….but do try…I mean you can fit it in when you and your UK police buddies aren’t under reporting crime.

                        You might want to review your own comments where you acknowledge the UK had higher violence and rape rates. Which by the way are 60x the homicide rate of the US.

                        You are not very good at this are you?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “the UK had higher violence and rape rates. Which by the way are 60x the homicide rate of the US.”
                        You conflate violence (undefined) and rape rates, without any evidence and then allegedly compare them with your homicide rates!?

                        I’ve no doubt our consumption of teacakes vastly exceeds your deaths in road crashes, but I’m not sure what that would prove!

                        Please be aware that you are talking to someone who has dealt with crime in the UK, not some hillbilly banjo-twanger who will fall for any rubbish you post.

                      • GAU-8

                        Silly Brit, right to keep and bear arms. No justification needed.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You also have the right to carry a fire extinguisher, against the vastly higher risk of being burned to death and yet you choose not to exercise that right. Funny that. Bears must be more frightening to you than fires.

                      • GAU-8

                        Silly Brit. Do you often come across people in spontaneous combustion? Or experience it yourself? If not why do you carry an extinguisher. Most of us apply common sense and have them available according to risk: home, jeep, work shop, by the fire pit. By the same token your national averages for animal attacks are meaningless. You have to look at localized numbers. There are zero bear, mountain lion, lynx, wolf in the vast majority of the US, just like there are no sharks in our glacial lakes. But please continue to demonstrate your analytical prowess. It is entertaining. Don’t let mama take your calculator away

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Silly Brit. Do you often come across people in spontaneous combustion?”
                        Probably about as often as you come across someone being attacked by a bear.

                      • GAU-8

                        So the answer is yes, interesting..how long have people spontaneously burst into flames around you?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        About as long as I’ve met Americans unable to recognise sarcasm.

                      • GAU-8

                        But keep on carrying that fire extinguisher….I’ll just keep mine in my house and jeep where I might actually need it.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Just lock your doors to keep the bears out!

                      • GAU-8

                        What are you worried about ? Russian circus bears? Let me guess you have never been west of New York?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        I’m not worried about bears, so I don’t carry a big gun to defend myself from them, as you say you have to. I’d be more worried about Montanans, who murder around 40 times as many people as are killed by bears each year in the entire USA.

                        I’m pretty sure Juneau was west of New York when I last went there. Have they moved it?

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”In 2013, 1,670 children (age 0 to 18 years) died by gunshot and an additional 9,718 were injured””

                        Good grief!!!!

    • sammy

      as someone frothe uk who has since moved out, please heed my warningto KEEP YOUR GUNS! Banning guns is simpy to make the population weaker and more defenseless. in outset it might seem fine, but over time you see that the country becomes more and more socialist (welfare state of an authoritarian gvnt and a weak dependent populace – which pretty much describes the uk and france perfectly). The uk is a SHITHOLE; an urban maze, and the clintons and obamas of the world want to turn the USA like the UK

      • Bluesman1950

        Where have you moved to Sammy. The USA? Good luck! Perhaps their excellent education system can help you with your grammar, syntax and punctuation

      • Mike Breen

        If the UK is a shithole, an urban maze, why do I keep crossing continents to take hiking holidays there? Why do the Lonely Planet describe the UK as the most beautiful island? The UK offers some of the most beautiful countryside in the entire WORLD! Doubt me?
        Walk…….
        The Pennine way.
        The coast to coast.
        The South West Coastal path.
        The Kintyre way.
        The Yorkshire Dales.
        Pennines.
        Lake district.
        Swaledale.
        North Yorkshire Moors.
        I could go on all day, but to describe the UK as an urban shithole just marks you out as one very ignorant man.

    • qb

      The best article I’ve ever read about firearms, crime, gun control, societal catalysts. Excellent research, clear, concise and unbiased presentation. Most likely will be criticized by almost everyone with predisposed opinions, which is one more reason to pay attention to Mr.King.

    • Dan Spector

      In a large number of cases, spree killers obtained the firearms right before they did it. We want to make it harder for those psychopaths.

      • Scooter

        Impossible. Even if you took guns from every person in the Country, you can still get one. How you might ask? You can make a pistol for abour 30$ worth of Metal. Or a Slamfire Shotgun for 20$ worth of Metal. Could make a semiauto-fullauto rifle for about 100$ worth of metal and a day of your time… (Get rid of bullets) literally impossible to do. But let’s say you are able to. Then what? You can make Gun Powder out of your own piss. Melt brass and make bullets……. End of the day, criminals will always get ahold of a Gun. Limiting the ability of a Law Abiding Citizen will not help in any way shape or form.

        • Dan Spector

          Kinda stretching there, scoot. Here’s a ton of steel and a gallon of gas.. English killers use knives, and are less lethal. Suicide and little kids are major killers too.

    • CHRIS D

      Western Europe has strict gun control and the murder rte varies from 1 to 10 per million, the US is at an all time low at about 40 per million, over 60% of those are carried out with a gun. The UK for example have never had the homicide rates at the levels of the US and they have never had a gun culture, even before the stricter laws , like the US. The way this article uses the stats to try to prove it’s point is stupid and very transparent.

      • The non-black/Hispanic rate in the US is comparable to that of the UK, illustrating it’s not gun availability that drives homicide rates.

        • CHRIS D

          That is completely incorrect

          • Sorry, but while it may be news to you, it’s been widely known and understood for decades. Take a gander: According to FBI stats, 50% of murders in America are black-on-black, with blacks 13% of the population. And according to the Violence Policy Center, the murder rate for Hispanics is twice that of non-black/Hispanic, with Hispanics 17% of the population.

            The math is simple. With a recent (2012) overall homicide rate of 4.7 per 100K that works out to the following rates: Black 18; Hispanic 4.5; Non-black/Hispanic 2.2; Homicide rate in the UK? 1.2, and some say that number should be adjusted upward due to differences in reporting.

            Clearly, as far as our outsized homicide rate is concerned, we do not have a gun problem but a socioeconomic one.

            • Bluesman1950

              Nonsense. Of the 2015 homicides, of the 10, 539 where the race of the offender was known 44% were white. The homicide rate for white Americans is twice that of Britons of all races.

              Some Americans do try to pretend that the UK murder rate is higher than recorded, but that is just a myth. The USA has a murder rate around 5 times that of the UK

              • Not sure where your confusion lies or what you think is nonsense, but let me know and I’ll try to help. I’m really curious where you’re going astray.

                • Bluesman1950

                  “The non-black/Hispanic rate in the US is comparable to that of the UK”

                  In the UK (England and Wales), (pop. 56 million in 2014) 534 homicides were recorded. http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/2015-07-16#violent-crime

                  in 2014 the FBI recorded 13897 homicides, the race/ethnicity of the offender being known in 9,765 of them.https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_3_murder_offenders_by_age_sex_and_race_2014.xls

                  Of those 9,765, 3782 or 39% were white (i.e. not lack, latino or hispanic).

                  Allowing for the 5.8 greater population in the United states, that would equate to 652 murders in the UK, 22% higher than our homicide rate by all races

                  However,since the ethnicity of 4132 is unknown, try applying the rate of 39% to the overall figure of 13897 homicides and you get 5419. Allowing again for the population difference that would equate to 934 murders in the UK, i.e. 75% higher.

                  Of course, we can only guess at the ethnicity of the 4132 whose identity was unknown, but there is no indication that it is more or less likely to be weighted towards black, white or latino.

                  To express, without any supporting facts, that the US white murder rate is the same as that in the UK is nonsense.

                  Clear enough?

                  • As far as “supporting facts”, the data I posted is well known and easily accessible for you to verify, so perhaps you can tell me which part you don’t accept and I can point you to a source if needed:

                    According to FBI stats, 50% of murders in America are black-on-black, with blacks 13% of the population. And according to the Violence Policy Center, the murder rate for Hispanics is twice that of non-black/Hispanic, with Hispanics 17% of the population.

                    The math is simple. With a recent (2012) overall homicide rate of 4.7 per 100K that works out to the following rates: Black 18; Hispanic 4.5; Non-black/Hispanic 2.2; Homicide rate in the UK? 1.2

                    What I take away from this is that, clearly, as far as our outsized homicide rate is concerned, we do not have a gun problem but a socioeconomic one. And, further, our non-black/Hispanic homicide rate is in line with that of the UK, as factors of 2 or 3 difference in homicide rates is the norm among Western nations.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      “.. the data I posted is well known and easily accessible for you to verify”
                      So feel free to actually post the links to it. Your point, you prove it.

                      “…our non-black/Hispanic homicide rate is in line with that of the UK, as factors of 2 or 3 difference in homicide rates is the norm among Western nations.”

                      No, your homicide rate is 5 time ours overall, around 120% to 170% homicides by white Americans.

                      Do you include black and Hispanic people as Americans, or don’t they count?

                      • Okay, I guess you really are unaware of the elephant in the room. To take your last comments first,

                        “No, your homicide rate is 5 time ours overall, around 120% to 170% homicides by white Americans. Do you include black and Hispanic people as Americans, or don’t they count?” Not sure if you’re trying to be funny or if you’re having trouble parsing the sentence: “our non-black/Hispanic homicide rate is in line with that of the UK”. And that of course is the whole point.

                        As for references:

                        (1) “According to FBI stats, 50% of murders in America are black-on-black”

                        See Table 7, p12, and text on the following page: “93% of black victims were killed by blacks”.
                        http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

                        (2) “with blacks 13% of the population. And according to the Violence Policy Center, the murder rate for Hispanics is twice that of non-black/Hispanic, with Hispanics 17% of the population.”

                        “African Americans are the largest racial minority, amounting to 13.2% of the population. Hispanic and Latino Americans amount to 17% of the population”
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

                        “Murder Rate for Hispanics Is Twice the Murder Rate for Whites”
                        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/murder-rate-for-hispanics_b_5309973.html

                        And once again: “The math is simple. With a recent (2012) overall homicide rate of 4.7 per 100K that works out to the following rates: Black 18; Hispanic 4.5; Non-black/Hispanic 2.2; Homicide rate in the UK? 1.2” Let me know if you have trouble with the math.

                        So again clearly, as far as our outsized homicide rate is concerned, we do not have a gun problem but a socioeconomic one. Whatever effect gun availability might have, it is dwarfed by socioeconomic factors.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “our non-black/Hispanic homicide rate is in line with that of the UK”.
                        “Non-black/Hispanic 2.2; Homicide rate in the UK? 1.2″ Let me know if you have trouble with the math.”

                        I do have trouble with 2.2 being “in line with” 1.2.
                        It is actually 83% more.

                      • ‘I do have trouble with 2.2 being “in line with” 1.2.
                        It is actually 83% more.’

                        You shouldn’t, and here’s why.
                        (1) A factor of 2 or 3 difference in homicide rates is the norm among Western nations. Go ahead and check it for yourself (I’m leaving this as an exercise for the reader).
                        (2) The black homicide rate is 720% higher than the non-black/Hispanic rate, or 8 times higher. THAT is what is significant.

                        You may ignore the elephant in the room if you want to, but do not try to sweep the elephant under the rug.

                        “exacerbated by the widespread availability of guns to all your divided races” And it would indeed be racist to suggest that the “divided races” cannot handle the responsibility of owning arms just as well as everyone else.

                        Whatever effect the availability of guns may have, it is dwarfed by socioeconomic factors. Those are the real causes, and that is what we need to address if we really want to change this picture. Gun control is not going to change that any more than it brought down Al Capone.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        It works in the UK. It’s too late for America.

                      • Well, if we could make the lives of black and Hispanic folks as good as everyone else’s we have a much lower homicide rate even with all our guns.

                        Besides, it’s not all about guns, as people don’t need guns to commit murder. Even here, about 1/3 of homicides are by other means.

                        And there’s no denying the benefits of the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        A gun homicide rate 68 times the UK? An undeniable benefit obviously!

                        Even without all your firearms homicides, your rate is still twice that of the UK.

                      • The non-gun homicide rate would be 4.7/3=1.6, which is 1.6/1.2=1.3, not 2.

                        As you should realize by now our homicide rate is not a gun problem but a socioeconomic one. It is not the right of the people to keep and bear arms that causes it. You’re confusing the means for the cause.

                        And it’s 4.7/1.2=3.9, not 68! I appreciate the frank discussion here but get a grip.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You are confusing your overall homicide rate, which is about 5 times ours, with your firearms homicide rate.

                        Last year 8124 people were murdered with firearms in the USA, population about 319 million.

                        In the same year 21 people were murdered with firearms in England and Wales, population about 56 million.

                        319/56 = 5.7. If Americans were murdered with firearms at the same rate as us you would have had 21 x 5.7 = 120 firearms homicides.
                        In fact you had 8124.

                        8124/120 = 67.7 times our firearms homicide rate.

                        If none of those firearms murders had been committed, even by another means, your homicide rate, by stabbing, strangling, bodily force etc. would still have been twice ours. Get a grip.

                      • “You are confusing your overall homicide rate, which is about 5 times ours, with your firearms homicide rate.” The confusion is you don’t realize homicide is about murdered people, not how they’re murdered! You’re making a common error, once again, you’re treating the gun like a causal agent. I don’t know if you can see the irony, but that huge number, 68, only serves to underscore the point. The overall homicide rate of non-black/Hispanics is within a factor of 2 of that of the UK, and that is what is relevant.

                        QED

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “And again, “more than twice ours” is incorrect: The non-gun homicide rate would be 4.7/3=1.6, which is 1.6/1.2=1.3, not 2.”
                        Sorry, but you are wrong!

                        USA, population about 319 million. UK (England and Wales,) population about 56 million. 319/56 = 5.7

                        US non-gun homicides 7068

                        UK non-gun homicides 494.

                        494 x 5.7 = 2,816 (allowing for the population differences)

                        7068 / 2816 = 2.5.

                        Even discounting all firearms homicides, the USA is 250% more homicidal than the UK.

                      • With all due respect you have trouble with numbers. As 1/3 of homicides in America are non-gun and an overall rate of 4.7 that gives 4.7/3=1.3 for the non-gun homicide rate.

                        But this is really quibbling over factors of 2 or 3 which is the norm among Western nations. The point is that here in the States as far as our outsized homicide rate is concerned, we do not have a gun problem but a demographics and socioeconomic one. Whatever effect gun availability might have, it is dwarfed by socioeconomic factors. The non-black/Hispanic rate is in line with that of the UK, 2.2 vs. 1.2.

                        Factors of 2 and 8 *within* a country (Hispanic and black) *is* significant, and reveals it is not gun availability that is causing it, and it’s not about the “number of guns”, that’s a common misconception. “Perhaps the fact of many of them still being used as slave labour in the largest prison system in the world and disproportionately likely to be killed, in huge numbers, by your police, has an impact on their perceptions of society.” That is really baloney and hyperbole and misdirection there! Half of all homicides are black-on-black, with blacks 13% of the population. That’s hardly a matter of perception, killings by police, or “slave labor”! Christ. Again, you’re blinding yourself to the elephant in the room.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Look at the actual numbers rather than inaccurate proportions.

                        US non-gun homicides 7068

                        UK non-gun homicides 494.

                        494 x 5.7 = 2,816 (allowing for the population differences)

                        7068 / 2816 = 2.5.

                        Your police kill around 1000 or more people per year. There are no accurate figures recorded! the entire UK police kill fewer than 3 people per year on average. That would amount to less than 18 in the USA.

                        You imprison the highest proportion of your population in the world and use them to work for little or no money. That survival of slavery is specifically allowed by the 13th Amendment.

                        The fact that black and Hispanic people may be disproportionately offenders and victims does not negate the fact that most of them are Americans. It is an American problem.

                        Your problems are with a country that is unequal, divided AND heavily armed.

                      • Sorry, but you’re getting lost in the numbers here, and I’ve already showed you the math. And again, quibbling over ratios and trying to ignore the elephant in the room: black-on-black homicide. You can run but you can’t hide.

                        “Your police kill around 1000 or more people per year.” Correct – and 60% of them involve blacks and Hispanics, which make up only 30% of the population. The overwhelming proportion are justified. Again, you”re ignoring the demographics issue.

                        “You imprison the highest proportion of your population in the world and use them to work for little or no money.” Again, you’re ignoring the elephant in the room: outsized black and Hispanic crime rates.

                        “The fact that black and Hispanic people may be disproportionately offenders and victims does not negate the fact that most of them are Americans. It is an American problem.” You’re resorting to a tautology. That’s desperation.

                        “Your problems are with a country that is unequal, divided AND heavily armed.” Again, you’re ignoring the fact that the non-black/Hispanic homicide rate is far lower and in line with that of the UK. Is it your opinion that the white people should give up their guns because the black folks can’t stop shooting each other?

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Sorry, but you’re getting lost in the numbers here”
                        How is quoting the actual numbers and their relationship to the relative population sizes of our countries “getting lost”?

                        I’m sorry if I am confusing you with facts, but they are the best things to go on.

                        “Your police kill around 1000 or more people per year.” Correct – and 60% of them involve blacks and Hispanics, which make up only 30% of the population. The overwhelming proportion are justified.”
                        What is that ‘overwhelming proportion’? People like the carer sitting with his hands up, shot by the police? http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-21/carer-shot-by-police-while-lying-on-the-ground-with-his-hands-up/

                        Unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.
                        About 13 percent of all black people who have been fatally shot by police since January 2015 were unarmed, compared with 7 percent of all white people.
                        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.dbfec8f0b0e9

                        Pointing out that the minorities who are responsible for a high proportion of your crime are Americans is not tautology, just an uncomfortable fact. ‘Real’ America is not just the nice, white middle-class bits, it is all of it, rural and urban, white and black, rich and poor, plutocrat and trailer trash.

                        “…the non-black/Hispanic homicide rate is far lower and in line with that of the UK.”
                        Repeating this lie does not make it any more true. It is at least 20% higher than the UK, even if every single one of the offenders whose race is not known turned out to be black/hispanic. Since that is unlikely to be the case it is, based on the proportions of known offenders, probably around 70% higher than the UK.

                        “Is it your opinion that the white people should give up their guns because the black folks can’t stop shooting each other?”
                        No, it is too late for the USA to get the guns out of their society. It is your problem and you are stuck with it. If I lived in the USA I would want a gun too, to defend myself from the mad, bad and paranoid armed citizens around me.

                        Pointing out that non-white Americans may be more homicidal and violent than white Americans, overlooks the fact that your whole country is more violent than us. However you try to ignore or twist the facts, all of America, to one degree or another is far more dangerous and violent than the UK and trying to pretend otherwise is just ignoring your real problem.

                      • Sorry, but 4.7/3 still equals 1.3 every day of the week, including in the UK, whether you like it or not.

                        One word of advice: you will not be able to understand gun matters while you are emotional.

                        Point is the homicide rate is not a gun problem, but a matter of demographics and socioeconomic conditions. You seem frustrated that you didn’t know that and didn’t believe it and, once shown, are now flailing around frantically trying to deflect and throw everything but the kitchen sink at the subject to try and distract from the elephant in the room. The power of belief is strong in you. Even once you know, you cannot admit. You must believe the prevailing narrative you’ve been taught.

                        You can run but you cannot hide.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “You can run but you cannot hide.”
                        But I can count, which seems to be a skill that has eluded you!

                        “Sorry, but 4.7/3 still equals 1.3 every day of the week, including in the UK, whether you like it or not.”
                        If you are going to try to be patronisingly critical of my maths, you might want to get yours right first!
                        Actually 4.7/3 equals 1.566 recurring, not 1.3 including in the USA, whether you like it or not! Still, what’s a difference of over 20% eh?

                        And the 4.7 ratio you quote is wrong anyway. Americans were murdered at 5.1 times the rate of Britons last year. 8.5% higher than your guesstimate. Look at the numbers again. One word of advice: you will not be able to understand gun matters while you are emotional.

                        USA, population about 319 million. England and Wales, population about 56 million. 319/56 = 5.7

                        Last year 15192 were homicide victims in the USA
                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-t
                        Last year 518 homicides were recorded in England and Wales.
                        http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepo….
                        15192/518 = 29.3 times as many homicides.
                        Adjust for population difference 29.3/5.7 = 5.1

                        “With all due respect you have trouble with numbers. As 1/3 of homicides in America are non-gun and an overall rate of 4.7 that gives 4.7/3=1.3 for the non-gun homicide rate.”
                        Your ‘one third’ assertion is wrong too!
                        In 2015 of the 15,192 homicides recorded by the FBI 7,068 were non-gun, i.e 46% not 33%. 46% of 5.1 is 2.37

                        “..you’re ignoring the fact that the non-black/Hispanic homicide rate is far lower and in line with that of the UK.”
                        Wrong again! Your overall homicide rate is over 5 times ours and your non-gun homicide rate is well over twice ours. The rate of murders committed by white people is not “in line with” that of the UK, it is at the very least 20% higher, (only if all unknown murderers were non-white) and more likely 70% higher, or possibly more.

                        I agree that you have a socioeconomic problem in American society stemming from centuries of injustice and alienation which cannot be cured overnight. Unfortunately a state of armed tension between communities and between them and the police is not helping to resolve it.

                        The fact that you have just managed to elect a president of extremely dubious character, who seems to be surrounding himself with religious loons, racists and extreme right-wing bigots in positions of power, does not bode too well for the USA either.

                        If you do want to dispute my figures, please check yours before you post and avoid embarrassing yourself again.

                      • There you go again! Once again trying to run away from the elephant in the room. But again, I will not allow that.

                        Overall homicide rate for the US: 4.7 per 100K.
                        Black 18
                        Hispanic 4.5
                        Non-black/Hispanic 2.2
                        Homicide rate in the UK 1.2

                        Clearly, as far as our outsized homicide rate is concerned, we do not have a gun problem but a socioeconomic one, the chief symptom of which is high violent crime by black and Hispanics.

                        Yes I repeat myself, but for you, apparently, I must.

                        And again, you will not be able to understand gun matters while you are emotional, let alone bigoted as you are resorting to now.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So why are you happy to have your dangerous black and hispanic American
                        citizens armed with firearms?

                      • There you go again! Trying to run away from the elephant in the room. Feel free to post more up to date sources if you have them, put up or shut up, but you already know it does not change the elephant in the room.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                        And you’re asking the wrong question, and it’s a stupid one. You keep trying to run away.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        More up to date sources than the 2015 statistics? Feel free to post them if you have them!

                        4.7/3 still equals 1.56, not 1.3!

                        The simple facts are that Americans are 5.1 times more homicidal than Britons.
                        White Americans are about 1.7 times more homicidal than Britons of all races.
                        Americans are 68 times more likely to be shot dead than Britons.
                        Americans are more homicidal than Britons and they are armed!

                        You can type but you obviously can’t think.

                      • I’ve yet to see your source for 2015, not that it compares to the elephant in the room.

                        And you Brits are 3 times more murderous than Icelanders, 1.8 times more murderous than the Swiss, not that it compares to the elephant in the room.

                        Yes I fixed it, hunky dory. Now, scroll up, Einstein, and you’ll see in this voluminous thread I wrote: ‘And again, “more than twice ours” is incorrect: The non-gun homicide rate would be 4.7/3=1.6, which is 1.6/1.2=1.3, not 2.’ So in this cutting and pasting where I’ve had to repeat what I say because you don’t get it the first time I copied 1.3 instead of 1.6. And now I’m not only cutting and pasting what I already said but even quoting myself back to you. Bon apetit. Not that it compares to the elephant in the room.

                        Because all you can do is run away from the truly staggering numbers, the black homicide rate 18/2.2=[8 TIMES HIGHER] than it is for non-black/Hispanic, or 100x(18-2.2)/2.2=[720% HIGHER]. It’s the elephant in the room you keep trying to run away from, over and over and over again.

                        It doesn’t fit your narrative, but there it is: not a gun problem, but a socioeconomic one. You literally can’t handle the truth. It’s too late for the UK.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Last year 15192 were homicide victims in the USA
                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-t
                        Last year 518 homicides were recorded in England and Wales.
                        http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepo….
                        15192/518 = 29.3 times as many homicides.
                        Adjust for population difference 29.3/5.7 = 5.1″

                        Perhaps you missed that.

                        And your homicide rate is still 5.1 times ours, not 4.7. What might it be without guns?

                      • I’d be happy to see it but the first link does not work.

                        You have a nationalistic bigotry and chauvinism that is misplaced and unflattering. If you’re happy with your gun laws in the UK that is fine for you, but here we have a different history and set of responsibilities and rights for our citizens, and that’s a whole other subject. Suffice it to say you neglect the benefits of our Bill of Rights. You’re entitled to your opinion, but keep some perspective. It is not your place to judge.

                        “And your homicide rate is still 5.1 times ours, not 4.7. What might it be without guns?” Once again, you’re running away and trying to hide from the elephant in the room:

                        Black 18
                        Hispanic 4.5
                        Other 2.2

                        That is a staggering difference, within the same country, and for you to want to average it out just washes away the information, and that is stupid and an obvious form of denial. If “gun rights” were the cause all those numbers would be the same. You have an irrational anti gun bias and this just doesn’t fit your narrative, and you’re being stupid.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-12

                        http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide#offences-recorded-as-homicide

                        “If you’re happy with your gun laws in the UK that is fine for you,”
                        Indeed we are and what we tend to object to is people like the author of this piece pretending that our gun laws have no effect and actually implying they make things worse by quoting unrelated trends in offences recorded. It is either ignorance or dishonesty or possibly both.

                        There is no ‘elephant in the room’ nor am I trying to ‘run and hide’ as you so predictably and irritatingly say each time you post, presumably under the impression that it somehow validates your opinion.

                        America is a large country with a history of racial persecution, oppression and strife. Your ethnic minorities, who are all still American, commit a disproportionately high volume of crime.

                        The possession of huge numbers of guns into your troubled society makes things worse rather than better. It is too late to get the guns out of society so you have to deal with the consequences. Trying to address the issues of social inequality, prejudice and poverty might be a start. I’m sure Donald Trump will sort it all out!

                      • “Your ethnic minorities, who are all still American, commit a disproportionately high volume of crime.” Exactly. It’s a demographics issue, not a gun problem.

                        “The possession of huge numbers of guns into your troubled society makes things worse rather than better.” That’s a common misconception – you mean the black communities in our cities. Most of the guns are owned by the white folks who don’t have the murder rates anywhere near the black folks, and that is indeed a benefit, otherwise it would not be in our Constitution. It’s not about the gun culture, it’s about the violent crime culture.

                        Here we have rights and responsibilities that you do not. You gave them up, or had them taken away from you, and that’s for you to deal with.

                        You can run but you cannot hide.
                        Black 18
                        White 2.2

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Since I live in the UK, with less than 20% the chance of being the victim of homicide of an American, I need neither to run, nor hide, but keep chanting it if you feel it makes your points any more true.

                      • Again, you’re ignoring the demographics, which makes the 20% meaningless.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • GAU-8

                        “America is a large country with a history of racial persecution, oppression and strife. Your ethnic minorities, who are all still American, commit a disproportionately high volume of crime.”

                        Hold true for the UK too………………………………….

                        UK: Relative to the population, the Black ethnic group had the highest rate of prosecutions. The rate of prosecutions for the Black ethnic group was 3 times higher than for the White group.

                        Blacks were 6x more likely than white to be subject to stop and searches in the UK

                        https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/race-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2014

                        Whites in the UK make up 87% of the population, Blacks just 3%

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_Kingdom

                        68 percent of blacks earn below the median weekly income referenced

                        https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/weekly-disposable-household-income-by-ethnicity-tax-years-19941995-to-20122013uk

                      • Bluesman1950

                        And yet we still have less than 20% of your homicide rate! Why is that I wonder?

                      • GAU-8

                        Why does Brazil with stricter gun laws and similar ownership as the UK have a rate 3500% higher?

                        Hint: other factors.

                        You continue to prove my statement. Thanks

                      • Bluesman1950

                        I am replying to the nonsense that attempts to link the 1997 UK legislation to an increase in homicides, whilst ignoring the subsequent decreases. Ask a Brazilian about Brazil.

                      • GAU-8

                        Do you purposely contort my statements? You sound like Mikey.

                        What I have said and will continue to say, read it slowly.

                        “There is no correlation between your gun laws and any reductions in violent crime”

                        Why do I say that? Well for one, it is true. Second, left wingnuts in the US like Hillary and Barry like to point to your laws/confiscations and Australia’s laws/confiscations as models for reducing crime.

                        At no point did I say your laws caused increases in homicide rates.

                        It is a fact your homicide rate, gun homicide rate and violent crime rates increased about 50% from 1997-2003, Hence, NO CORRELATION.

                        Even my calculations showed a covariance of 0. 0 = no correlation.

                        I hope I said that clear enough for you. Consider our conversations over. Tell Mikey the same.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Cheerio. Look out for the wild cats and the bears and especially the armed Montanans.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I don’t contort your statements, I point out your inconsistency and the fact you are wrong. You claim you are free to leave the USA and that you have a $100,000 FEIE and a form to fill, so leaving is no problem. Leaving aside the fact that you STILL seem to have to report to a country you claim you can leave………..You then gloat at the fact that the British Mayor of London was hit with around $400,000 in taxes by the USA on what should have been a tax free sale of his home in the UK. Free to leave, just taxes to a country you claim to have left?

                        Or you go even further, in dismissing cut and paste from a tax lawyer and foremost expert in the US tax code and FATCA, and in how it makes normal life impossible for a “US person” who chooses not to live in the USA. John Richardson of the Isaac Brock society. You called it “fantasy” despite the sheer simplicity of googling the post I made.

                        You deny the truth if you don’t like it, and that makes you dishonest and lacking in personal integrity. Go on, tell us again how the 1997 firearms reform act increased crime and how Americans are free……

                      • GAU-8

                        “other factors” you like to ignore them for your one-trick pony argument.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes, even if we all carried guns we’d be far too polite to use them. We might spill our tea!

                      • GAU-8

                        Like this country?

                        If you want to own a gun legally these are the requirements:

                        — a fixed address

                        — proof of legitimate income

                        — no criminal record

                        — a mental health test

                        — proof you know how to handle a gun and shoot it

                        — evidence of why you need a gun. For example, a police report of an attack against you.

                        The UK has an estimated 6.6 guns per 100 persons. This country has 8. By comparison the US has 112

                        This country has a homicide rate of 32.4 (the US is 4.7; UK is 0.7)

                        Welcome to the world of NO CORRELATION between gun laws, gun ownership and crime.

                      • Mike Breen

                        You should be wary of comparisons where one more murder would double their murder statistics, as in the case of Iceland. If you are interested in the truth. My experience with pro gun fanatics, is they are not.
                        Too late for the UK? Don’t make me laugh. We’re just fine without needing to worry about being five times more likely to be murdered, usually with a gun.

                      • I guess you just can’t handle the truth. Sorry, but you’re being stupid. It’s a demographics problem, not a gun problem.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You are the one too stupid to realise that it is a demographics AND gun problem.

                        Of course, electing a rabble-rousing racist oaf like Trump, who is apparently in the process of surrounding himself with other racists and religious loons, some of whom have the support and approval of the KKK, is bound to improve your societal problems no end!

                      • “You are the one too stupid to realise that it is a demographics AND gun problem.” Not unless you believe blacks are inherently incapable of handling guns as well as white folks. And that is genuinely racist (and stupid).

                        You are being bigoted. Your prejudices have been revealed and you don’t like it so you’re sticking your head in the sand instead of acting like a grown up.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “”You are the one too stupid to realise that it is a demographics AND gun problem.” Not unless you believe blacks are inherently incapable of handling guns as well as white folks. And that is genuinely racist (and stupid).”
                        So the man that blames ethnic minorities for the American crime problem accuses me of being racist! And who says Americans don’t do irony?

                        I think the problem is that your ethnic minorities are easily as good at handling guns as “white folks”. The racism comes in their historical and daily oppression and the fears engendered by electing a racist blowhard buffoon like Trump as your president are hardly likely to calm them down and prevent them using their guns.

                      • Sorry, but you really are being stupid. “So the man that blames ethnic minorities” Yeah, that is stupid of you, royally. Spare me your adolescent guilt trips and just look at the data. Christ.

                        Okay, so the black folks are murdering each other at an alarming rate because … white racism. That is indeed stupid. Again, royally.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Americans 5. Britons 1.

                      • Literally, you can’t handle the truth. You take an average so you can wash out the information. What are you afraid of? Losing your narrative, your prejudices, your propaganda, etc. You not only ignore the elephant in the room, you try to sweep the elephant under the rug. And that is indeed stupid. It is people like you that actually crave tyranny, Orwellian hegemony and bigotry. You cannot win.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        White Americans are nearly twice as homicidal as Britons of all races. Why is that?

                        “You take an average so you can wash out the information. ”
                        And you seem to be trying to ignore the fact that all these ethnic minorities who are responsible for the higher proportion of your homicides are American. They may be black Americans, or Hispanic Americans, or Native Americans, but they are Americans! That is a truth you seem unable to handle.

                        Your problems are American problems and failing to sort them out is an American failure. The fact that you have so many guns available makes that failure so characterised by violence.

                        “It is people like you that actually crave tyranny, Orwellian hegemony and bigotry.”
                        Not arming the general population, the vast majority of whom do not want to be armed, is hardly tyranny. Do you think that we are tyrannised because we don’t carry guns? Is the fact that we are 70 times less likely than you to be shot by the police a symptom of tyranny?

                        No, what I want is a society in which we are free to live our lives under a democratic system. One in which we are as free of violence and murder as possible. Recognising that your ethnic problems are largely the result of centuries of persecution is not bigotry.

                      • “That is a truth you seem unable to handle.” How stupid can you possibly be?

                        “so many guns available” It’s not about gun availability, as I’ve shown you over and over: it’s a socioeconomic and demographics issue.

                        “arming the general population” Nobody arms anyone. The people have always been armed here, as is their right and their responsibility.

                        “Do you think that we are tyrannised because we don’t carry guns?” I know you cannot prevent being tyrannized because you have abdicated your responsibility to be armed against it.

                        “Is the fact that we are 70 times less likely than you to be shot by the police a symptom of tyranny?” Again, you’re ignoring the demographics and socioeconomic differences that account for it. You can run but you cannot hide.

                        “Recognising that your ethnic problems are largely the result of centuries of persecution is not bigotry.” Well, we have your illustrious limey forbears to thank for that now, don’t we? And we eliminated your institution of slavery at great cost. We also defeated your army in our Revolution, and you are bigoted because you still resent and you can’t get over it.

                        You just don’t want to admit that our “gun problem” is not what you thought it was. And your experience as a gentle “bobby” in your gun-free, violence-free utopia doesn’t mean squat over here. And don’t go blaming our police for being “trigger happy” just because you’re jealous they deal with threats you never had to and likely would be too afraid of.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “It’s not about gun availability, as I’ve shown you over and over”
                        How do you shoot someone if you do not have a gun?

                        “I know you cannot prevent being tyrannized because you have abdicated your responsibility to be armed against it.”
                        You seriously believe that you need your guns to fight your government? In a democracy you use your vote. If your government actually sought to impose tyranny by military means through a compliant army and police force, do you seriously anticipate that a disorganised rabble, scared for their lives, families and property could effectively resist them? State by state resisters would be slaughtered. You are living in a paranoid fantasy with which guns help you to deal.

                        “Again, you’re ignoring the demographics and socioeconomic differences that account for it. You can run but you cannot hide.”
                        And those socioeconomic and demographic differences make the problems not American problems? You can run but you cannot hide!

                        “We also defeated your army in our Revolution,”
                        So what? What has that got to do with Americans slaughtering each other on a daily basis? Do you really think that we would want back a racially and economically divided society, populated by people 70% of whom believe in angels ffs!
                        (http://www.salon.com/2014/12/20/7_things_americans_think_are_more_plausible_than_global_warming_partner/ )
                        People who are happy to elect as their president a lying, racist, misogynist, tax-dodging, nepotist, serial groper and torture advocate who is surrounding himself with overt racists, ‘mad dog’ generals and religious loons! We are well rid of you. You can stew in your own juice. Don’t worry, the Redcoats are not coming back to take your guns.

                        “And your experience as a gentle “bobby” in your gun-free, violence-free utopia doesn’t mean squat over here”
                        I thought that, according to you, we were more violent than the USA! Utopia or hell-hole, which is it?
                        As to being a “gentle ‘bobby'”, I’m not sure that some of the people I arrested and tried violent resistance would agree with that description of me! I had occasion, from time to time, to use pain compliance techniques; to kick punch and baton violent criminals, causing more than one broken bone. All of which I could fully justify. What I did not need to do was seriously wound or kill anybody, because they did not have guns and neither did I.

                        “.you’re jealous they deal with threats you never had to and likely would be too afraid of.”
                        In your armed society they often have to face guns, far more often than I did and that is why they need guns. Unfortunately they also seem to use them frequently on people who, like the ones I regularly dealt with, were either unarmed or armed with weapons that could be overcome without firearms. I’m not jealous of unnecessary killing.

                      • “do you seriously anticipate that a disorganised rabble, scared for their lives, families and property could effectively resist them? State by state resisters would be slaughtered. You are living in a paranoid fantasy with which guns help you to deal.” Yeah, worked pretty well against your tyrant King George’s redcoats didn’t it? Ha! You really have no credibility you chauvinistic snowflake bobby.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        And the US Army and Air Force, armed with modern weapons and fighting on their home territory would find it just as difficult as the redcoats with muskets being supplied and directed by sailing ship from thousands of miles away. Obviously!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Given what I have found since 2011 when I had a friend (and her Belgian family) getting destroyed by the USA via the US tax code and FATCA, I’m not laughing any more. The USA has lost it’s moral compass, and I fear worse with Trump at the helm.

                        Any country capable of passing FATCA has proven itself to be monstrously stupid, arrogant, hypocritical on an epic level and not to be trusted. And they did that before the orange buffoon starts throwing his weight about.

                      • Man are you stupid! We’d be fighting people like YOU Mr Snowflake Bobby, not the armed forces. Stalin didn’t herd people into the death camps of Siberia using tanks and bombers. You may be able to kick in doors and drag people away with nothing but a billy club in your own little nanny state, but if you come over here and join the ranks of a tyrant’s henchmen you’ll be wearing body armor and carrying a Glock and AR-15 and you STILL won’t last long. So stick that in your fancy Sherlock Holmes pipe and smoke it.

                        “You are the helpless subjects ” Methinks you project too much! You’re an immature, stupid bigot. I’ve given you a taste of your own medicine just for the heck of it, but frankly I don’t feel the need to criticize what people do in other countries. But YOU, you are jealous of my country and frustrated at your impotence and lost glory. Deal with it, and for Christ’s sake grow up.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So, the government would keep the US Army and Air Force neutral and just leave it to the police to be defeated? You think that a government seriously bent on tyranny would allow the police to be unsupported and outgunned by a bunch of Rambo wannabes, without using the vastly superior force they can wield to send a message to others who might want to resist? Your trust in your guns and the capacity of a bunch of civilians to organise themselves against professionals is touchingly naive. I seem to recall that the National Guard were happy enough to gun down unarmed students at Kent State University. Armed resistance at Waco didn’t go too well did it?

                        How about those armed citizens who supported the government, as very many Germans did in the 1930s and didn’t want it overthrown? Is the term ‘Civil War’ familiar? Your guns are only any use against a government which is not tyrannical.

                        “You may be able to kick in doors and drag people away with nothing but a billy club in your own little nanny state…”
                        Bur we don’t do we? Your paranoia about the government is your problem. We are a democracy and rely on the ballot, not the bullet.

                        “You are the helpless subjects ”
                        Well you have just managed to elect, by a minority of the popular vote, a President so staggeringly vulgar, inappropriate, corrupt and racist that the USA is the laughing stock of the world, but I suppose that there is “nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don’t know,” to quote him!

                        “I’ve given you a taste of your own medicine just for the heck of it,…”
                        Really? I haven’t seen any coherent argument or evidenced proof of your views, but if you think you have, well done you! Give yourself a Gold Star on your chart.

                        “But YOU, you are jealous of my country and frustrated at your impotence and lost glory. ”
                        Jealous of your superstitious, unequal, divided, homicidal country, so collectively stupid that you can manage to elect probably the worst person to preside over and represent you? If you say so. Good luck!

                      • You can run but you can’t hide!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “You can run but you can’t hide!”

                        That’s all you have left I suppose.

                      • You do run away a lot! You ran like the Dickens from the demographics data, frantically trying to deny anything that threatens the prevailing narrative you’ve bought into, changing the subject whenever you get cornered.

                        You think guns are too dangerous for “civilians” yet they are useless against mass killers or resisting tyranny, etc., which is a bit of cognitive dissonance. Resistance, for example, does not mean the simplistic pitched battles and loyalty lines you imagine, but rather things like 4GW, etc.

                        “Bur we don’t do we? Your paranoia about the government is your problem.” You are fundamentally mistaken. It’s not about fear, its about responsibility: rights and responsibilities go together. And it’s not about whether you kick in doors now, but that you can, and with impunity.

                        “We are a democracy and rely on the ballot, not the bullet.” So do we. But the American people retain the power of arms because it is their responsibility to safeguard their freedom. That power can only be surrendered or taken away by force. I do not believe the people will surrender it, nor should they.

                        You have to understand the underlying principles. The American people have the right to keep and bear arms because they have a responsibility to defend innocent life and to safeguard the nation’s liberty. You cannot ban a responsibility, nor can you remove it. If there is ever a conflict, it comes down to people with rifles, and that’s why the citizens have the right. As the language of our covenant with our government, our Constitution, suggests, “to keep and bear”, it’s principal political value is one of deterrence. We don’t have guns so we can shoot tyrants, we have guns so we won’t have tyrants.

                        To believe the American people could not mount a potent resistance, or that they should surrender the rights and firepower they have without a struggle, is your fantasy. Do not stake your life on it.

                        You are blinded by a kind of statist mentality and hatred and intolerance. People like you have created the Trump phenomenon, with the Orwellian hegemony and bigotry of the left. He may be an overcorrection, but a correction nonetheless.

                        You are a bigoted, spiteful Americaphobe, no different than a racist or anti-Semite, and I can’t help you with that. You will not be able to understand gun matters with that level of immaturity and emotionalism.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Good luck with keeping Trump in line.

                        You can run but you can’t hide!

                      • We’ll do our best!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Good luck, you’ll need it.

                      • And good luck in nanny state neutered Brittania!

                      • “More Americans have died from gunfire” That’s one-sided, simplistic, and evinces a common misconception and error in logic. Guns do not have a mind of their own, it requires intent. In fact, 1 out of 3 murders are not by gun, so you have to add 50% to all of your figures. (Plus I’ve already shown you it’s not about guns but demographics.) You can run but you can’t hide.

                        But more importantly, the right of the people does not depend on statistics or trends in violent crime, etc. I understand your people have been castrated and that bothers you, but do not try to project your weaknesses onto the people of other countries you are jealous of.

                        “How many tyrannies have you overthrown since Independence?” Utterly and completely irrelevant. You still do not understand the principles. You have a mental block due to propaganda conditioning. You cannot even understand the concept, let alone evaluate or judge it.

                        “He doesn’t fit your stereotype of a tyrant so you sleepwalk into the nightmare convinced that your guns could save you.” Wrong again, you are projecting your stupidity: it’s not about “guns saving us”, it’s about responsibility for defending, keeping the power of arms with the people where it belongs. Man, are you stupid! You are an unteachable stupid bigot. No wonder we have Trump here, and you folks over there have no recourse whatsoever, you are completely powerless over your fate, and that is why you are jealous of us: you have already lost and you simply can’t stand the fact that we have not lost. Frankly, we don’t think about you. We don’t have to. We’re not jealous of you.

                        “You don’t even recognise the dangers.” You’re being bigoted and projecting, and you are stupid. You have no idea what we recognize.

                        “People like you have allowed him to take your country without any resistance.” Again, you’re being stupid and prejudiced. You can’t even think straight. I never said Trump was a good candidate or a good choice. Man, you’re stupid! And your stupidity is the reason we have Trump: you created him, people like you with your stupidity. Bon apetit!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yeah right!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Your guns failed to stop your government making you US government property, yet the claim is so often about guns keeping you free of tyrannical government. I am genuinely not even trying to score points when I say thank god I’m not an American. Get set set for reports of yet another record year of renunciations, despite the best efforts of the US government to make renouncing ever more difficult and expensive.

                      • You’re being quite myopic for one thing, not to mention incoherent with respect to property. There is nothing to “claim”; the guns have never been needed to resist, and hopefully they never will, though history informs us never to relinquish our power and responsibility or lower our guard – you cannot ban a responsibility after all. You abdicated your responsibility and surrendered your power without a fight, with nary a whimper, but that is your choice. I don’t disparage that, and neither is it your place to judge us.

                        I’ve never wanted to be anything other than American, and that remains undiminished, only my appreciation grows. Nor do I feel bigoted towards other countries, as you do.

                        Incidentally, our homicide rate is a demographics issue, not a gun problem.

                      • Mike Breen

                        You are property. You want to deny that? You know, beyond telling me you don’t want leave, that you are content property?

                      • Again, incoherent and silly.

                      • Mike Breen

                        So, try leaving.

                      • By that “logic” I’d only be trading one owner for another. You can’t escape being a citizen of *some* country! Christ.

                        “As a strong believer in independence and a person who deeply resents governmental interference in my life where government has no business” Welcome to the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Oh, wait – you can’t.

                        “As an American, you have a severe enemy. Americans abroad know who it is, it’s the US government.” As is any gov’t, potentially. That’s why we have guns. Comprende now, pardner?

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”By that “logic” I’d only be trading one owner for another. You can’t escape being a citizen of *some* country! Christ.””

                        Then you still do not understand your unique situation.

                        I am a citizen of the UK, a UK that does not own me and I am free to come and go as I please, free to be left alone if I leave.

                        You are not.

                        You are the property of the US government and you are not free to leave.

                        And yes, the British can own guns.

                      • Good heavens! I had no idea. And here I’ve been travelling abroad all these years and never knew it was not allowed.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Vacations are allowed. Yes, you have no idea.

                        “”The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is a 2010 United States federal law to enforce the requirement for United States persons including those living outside the U.S. to file yearly reports on their non-U.S. financial accounts to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FINCEN). It requires all non-U.S. (foreign) financial institutions (FFIs) to search their records for indicia indicating U.S. person-status and to report the assets and identities of such persons to the U.S.””

                      • Yes, American taxes for American citizens. Imagine that! Doh!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Yes, imagine having to pay taxes to a country that claims you as property no matter where in the world you go. Only Americans and Eritreans could imagine that. Imagine having to report your financial life to the Financial CRIMES Enforcement Network. The crime? Leaving the plantation.

                      • Wow, another jealous Americaphobe. Did it ever occur to you that you are jealous because we are successful and well off, and so many people want to come and stay here and work?

                        That’s the difference between us and you. We’re not jealous. We don’t have to compare ourselves to you or other countries. If you’re happy the way you are that’s fine with us. But YOU – you’d rather try to disparage and tear down other people because of your jealousy and insecurity and feelings of inadequacy and fear. We here, on the other hand, don’t have such feelings, such destructive negativity and fear and cowering. We believe in people lifting themselves up, rather than trying to tear others down. Ours is a way of progress. Yours is a way of spitefulness and venality, destructive of your way of life and anything it touches. That is one of the terrible ills and curses of European factionalism and jealous persecution. Fortunately, we have abandoned and forsaken and effectively destroyed your ability to contaminate those who want to live and prosper in a genuine democracy and open society, and we are immune from your immature antics and childish spite and bigotry.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Oh yes, my observations regarding your slavery must be because I too want to be a slave. Seriously?! The fact that the worlds poor would still like to get to the USA is a bit like justifying beating your dog because there are plenty more in the pound. 1.5 year waiting list for renunciation at the US embassy in Canada.

                      • Aw, gee, didn’t mean to hurt your feelings that bad! Yeah, we are such slaves here in the land of the free, so much so that the rest of the world just can’t compare when it comes to freedom and unalienable civil rights, and that’s why so many of them want to come here! Damn, man, don’t just be butt hurt, think! Think man, think.

                        Yeah, you’re jealous all right, big time! You will not be able to understand these matters as long as you are so immature and emotional. And we? We don’t need to think about you the way you think and obsess about us. We have it, you don’t. Try picking yourselves up instead of trying to tear others down. You are pathetic and irrelevant. Deal with that in a constructive manner, not an immature and spiteful and irrelevant and marginal manner. Then maybe you’ll have something relevant to say.

                      • Mike Breen
                      • Yeah, seen it. And you’re just as jealous the first time you saw it! Hey, I got a move for ya, it’s about the future – at least, the future in some countries – called A Clockwork Orange.

                        Sorry, but you’re just a stupid bigot. And while I realize that must be tough, I can’t help you with that.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I don’t need your help, because all I have given you is facts you don’t like. Facts that go against your life time of brain washing. The same brain washing that leads you to say that I am jealous, but you cant actually say what it is that I am jealous of.

                        It’s just the same with your FREEDOM speech. When challenged to look beyond what you have now come to accept as true because you have been told it so many times, you can not tell me what freedom you have that I do not.

                        And the bad news is that not only do you have no significant freedoms above those that any other man of the free world enjoys, you are unique in the fact that you are the property of the USA and should you attempt to leave, you will be punished.

                        I’m not jealous, I am very thankful that I am not an American and for so many reasons.

                        If you are going to come back and repeat that I am jealous, back it up with reasons.

                      • I can tell you’re jealous by how bigoted and condescending you are. I don’t need to look up or down at Brits, or citizens of any other country. You shouldn’t do it either. It’s stupid.

                        “no significant freedoms above those that any other man of the free world enjoys” If that were true you wouldn’t mind us keeping our guns! Calling the right of the people to keep and bear arms “insignificant” is a form of denial, and yet one more illustration of your jealousy.

                      • Mike Breen

                        So you have the right to shoot each other and yourselves in extraordinary numbers. I’ve seen many people with clear mental health issues on these boards bragging about their gun rights.

                        Guess what? I’m not jealous.

                        Two standard replies from all rattled Americans, “you are jealous and we are free”. You’re not free, you are property, and accusing me of jealousy is utterly ridiculous if you just took a moment to look beyond your brainwashing.

                        I’m fairly sure that many Americans accusing me of jealousy do so from their trailer. Amusingly, another has just told me how the rest of the world is a dump and how he’s nearly debt free, and so I must be jealous. :-)))

                        Translation……He’s never been anywhere else, has just realised that he really doesn’t have any real freedoms that I do not, and he’s in debt, and he too is now very angry at the foreigner who has told him that he’s not even free to leave the country.

                        Wow, I’m just green with jealousy here. :-))

                      • Well, you’re pretty bigoted and do a lot of projecting of your prejudices, assumptions, pigeonholing, etc. So yeah, I’m not surprised you’re jealous if that’s the kind of citizenry you aspire to. Most bigots are quite jealous and fearful and you’re no exception.

                        “So you have the right to shoot each other and yourselves in extraordinary numbers.” No, we don’t. You’re being stupid. And for your info, we have a demographics issue, not a gun problem.

                      • Mike Breen

                        All countries have demographics problems, but we don’t exacerbate the problem by giving people (including those with mental health issues that I have seen on these discussion boards) easy access to guns while telling them they can be used to defend themselves.

                        I like the way you suggest I am fearful, but I don’t feel the need to carry a gun. That’s what makes me laugh, the number of gun nuts who suggest the cowards are the ones who can sleep nights without a gun under their pillow.

                        I’m still waiting for an explanation of why I would be jealous of the property of the biggest open prison on the planet, a place where sleeping nights without an armoury is a difficult thing to do. What does it feel like to be property?

                        But you know what? Do you want to know why I am pushing this point and hopefully making you very angry indeed, because you should be?

                        Look up the names of your political representatives and tell them the world is laughing when you do your little freedom speech, and tell them why they are laughing.

                        Citizenship based taxation and FATCA need to be repealed and like yesterday, because I for one am taking no pleasure in what the USA is doing to my fellow men that just happen to fall under the USA’s definition of “US person”.

                      • “giving people (including those with mental health issues that I have seen on these discussion boards) easy access to guns” We don’t give people access to guns. It’s called the right of the people. You don’t get to decide who is mentally ill from discussions on social media!

                        “I don’t feel the need to carry a gun.” So don’t – oh wait, you can’t. “That’s what makes me laugh, the number of gun nuts who suggest the cowards are the ones who can sleep nights without a gun under their pillow.” You’re projecting. Why? You’re stupid. It’s a “right”, that means it’s a choice. You’re being bigoted.

                        “I’m still waiting for an explanation of why I would be jealous” You tell me. I’m only diagnosing your psychosis, not the cause.

                        “hopefully making you very angry indeed” Again, projection. You will not be able to understand gun matters while you are emotional and immature and bigoted.

                        “Citizenship based taxation” So what’s that got to do with you? You just want to feel good about yourself by finding something to complain about in others. In America we believe in people lifting themselves up, not tearing others down so you don’t have to feel so inadequate about yourself.

                        Honestly, I don’t know how you can possibly be so stupid, bigoted, immature, emotionally and intellectually stunted. You can hardly think, you’re so worked up and flailing about trying to find a target for your infantile rage.

                      • Mike Breen

                        “I don’t feel the need to carry a gun.” So don’t – oh wait, you can’t. ”

                        Correct. The very people who feel the need to carry a gun are generally the very people who you don’t want to have carrying guns.

                        “Citizenship based taxation” So what’s that got to do with you?””

                        Apart from the human rights issue that should be borderless, you forced us to spend a fortune in order to help you terrorize your diaspora. When you tax disabled Canadian children, UK child benefits, and enslave our citizens that you claim priority to, it’s our business.

                      • “The very people who feel the need to carry a gun are generally the very people who you don’t want to have carrying guns.” That is self-serving, ignorant, and bigoted. If you don’t understand our rights, you can learn. You’re laboring under a misconception: it’s not about need, it’s about responsibility.

                        There’s no excuse for being a bigot. I’ve got nothing against you or the way you choose to do things in your own country, with regard to guns or whatever. I’m not judging you or your decisions, not saying it’s better or worse, it’s different. Nor do I need to defend our Constitution or the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It is an English tradition that you ended, and that’s fine for you if that’s what you want. But for us it is a freedom, a right, a duty, and as part of our Constitution it is ipso facto a benefit. I make no apologies nor justification for it, as none is needed.

                        I’m sure if I lived in the UK I would be happy there, living under your laws and your rules. I hope you would be happy if you live or visit here.

                        On the tax matter, if that’s a cause you’re interested in, go for it, but don’t come crying to me. I don’t make the law and I’m not defending it.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I don’t have a country and no country has me. I don’t live in the country where I was born (which happens to be the middle east) and I don’t live in the country where I grew up. I’m a free man and face no claim on me by any country where I don’t live, I only expect to pay for the services of the government in the country in which I live. Please, don’t preach to me about freedom. Americans are owned, they are property.

                      • You know, I really wish you would stop projecting. You’re being bigoted.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I’m confused as to how that was bigoted. It’s a statement of fact, none of which can be said for you. You are property of the USA and you will be punished for leaving. Open your eyes and get angry!

                      • “Please, don’t preach to me about freedom.” You’re being a bigot, that’s projection. Yep, that’s jealousy alright! Honestly, I don’t know how you can possibly be so stupid. I can explain to you but if you think that’s preaching then you’ve got a problem, you’re a bigot, you don’t like our freedoms but it’s not your place to judge.

                        You know, if you don’t like the tax law, deal with it. Don’t come crying to me. You sound more like “property” to me, slave to your prejudices and obsessed about US tax law. So what is it with you, misery loves company?

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”you don’t like our freedoms””

                        I don’t like your brainwashing, the stuff you demonstrate here. You idiots keep repeating your freedom mantra without even thinking about it. Apart from the freedom to shoot each other and yourselves in extraordinary numbers, you don’t have any more freedoms than me. Further, you are not free to leave the country, you are property. That very thought sickens me, and I am not even trying to score points. Just imagining for a moment that a government owns me, sickens me. It should sicken you too, slave.

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”If that were true you wouldn’t mind us keeping our guns!””

                        I don’t mind you keeping your guns, it’s not my business. What I mind is the bull droppings spread about other countries in order to justify your position on guns in the USA.

                        I feel sorry for my American friends, not jealousy.

                        In fact I feel so sorry for them that I have donated money to them to help them fight US tyranny in the courts.

                      • Well, don’t feel sorry for me and I won’t feel sorry for you. Again, there is no “need to justify” our Constitution and our civil liberties, any more than you need to justify their absence in your country.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I’ll continue to feel sorry for any person owned by the US government.

                      • Well, so you say. Yet you seem a lot more upset about the tax law than I am. Don’t come cryin’ to me, toots.

                      • Mike Breen

                        You have no idea what your law has done, you don’t understand. Of course you are not upset. This is all way above your level. Go have another doughnut and gaze adoringly at your star spangled banner. All is well, no need to be concerned. Just be the happy slave that you are. I suspect you are of an age where you need not worry too much about the USA in 20 years time anyway.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Still waiting for you to explain your extra rights and freedoms. What are they exactly and how do they mitigate the fact that you are owned by your government and are not free to leave?

                      • No explanation necessary. They are not “extras”.

                      • Mike Breen

                        If they are not extras, why do you people CONSTANTLY brag about your freedoms as if you are the only ones that have them then? Oh, I know. It’s been drilled in to you from birth that you live in the land of the free and everybody else is jealous.

                        Thinking for yourself has never been required on that front and if these freedoms are so special, other people don’t have them. Simple logic, eh?

                        Only when somebody gets you to THINK for yourself do you realise this is not true. Americans are as controlled and manipulated as the population of a so called free country could possibly be, your media are extraordinary. No wonder you’re afraid to travel.

                        Well, you finally seem to have accepted that the freedom thing is bogus.

                        Now you just need to understand that not only am I not jealous because you have nothing I want, but the thought of being OWNED by my government and not free to leave has me feeling sorry for you.

                        The word is not jealousy, it’s sympathy.

                      • Who says I’m bragging? I don’t need to. That’s why I say you’re jealous, you can’t even have a discussion about something without projecting and denigrating.

                        “Simple logic, eh?” Simple yes, but not logical.

                        “Only when somebody gets you to THINK for yourself do you realise this is not true. Americans are as controlled and manipulated as the population of a so called free country could possibly be, your media are extraordinary. No wonder you’re afraid to travel.” You’re a bigot and a complete idiot, besides being wrong.

                        Sorry, but you’re just too stupid and bigoted to get out of your own way.

                      • Mike Breen

                        But while you accuse me of jealousy, you still can’t tell me why I might be jealous of you. I keep asking, you keep dodging the question. And you can’t tell me why I might be jealous, because you know nothing about me.

                        All I see here is your brainwashing in full swing. You support the USA like people support a football team. Your team is the biggest and best and so I must be jealous.

                        The only real basis for jealousy would be that if your personally had more than me, and while that is possible, you probably don’t As to belonging to the biggest and baddest and so I must be jealous, the reason I am not lays in the word “belonging”.

                        Your are property.

                      • There you go again!

                        “you still can’t tell me why I might be jealous of you” I’ve told you over and over and in countless ways: YOUR attitude evinces and reveals it.

                        “because you know nothing about me” Projection again. That is YOUR behavior towards others.

                        “You support the USA like people support a football team.” No, I don’t. I’m merely pointing out YOUR bigotry and jealousy.

                        “Your team is the biggest and best and so I must be jealous.” That is what YOU say, and what you want to believe I think.

                        “The only real basis for jealousy would be that if you personally had more than me” It has nothing to do with anything personal. YOU try to make it personal because you are obsessed with America. YOU project false notions about others. YOU are jealous and bigoted.

                        “Your are property.” YOU are obsessed with America.

                      • Mike Breen

                        It’s not easy to ignore America when you force your laws down our throats. Stupid, idiotic and human rights abusing laws. I ask you again, what am I jealous of? Don’t confuse fury with jealousy.

                      • Okay so you’re angry about that, I understand. I’m sorry if the law is affecting you and others adversely. I’m aware of the law but obviously you’re more versed in its breadth and effects, and if it’s unjust then I hope it can be changed. I don’t want to see our country’s power being used to bully people. That is my sincere feeling. But again, I’m just a guy who happened to be born here just like you’re a guy who happened to be born there.

                      • Mike Breen

                        You don’t know where I was born, or where I live.

                        Those of us who understand FATCA and it’s laundry list of unintended and massively negative consequences are both furious and sad. Furious that our governments were stupid and greedy enough to fall for the lies of your treasury with their unauthorised “intergovernmental agreements” (I don’t use that word lightly, they LIED) and stupid enough to throw their own citizens under the FATCA bus if any of those citizens happen to be unfortunate enough to fall under the entirely US defined definition of “US person”.

                        I would like to see government officials around the world held up for treason for signing those agreements. But you see, they all got swept up in the hysteria of getting those rich overseas tax dodgers and were terrified to do anything that might be seen to be helping those tax dodgers and hey, the USA was going to be telling us about our citizens hiding money in the USA, too!

                        Except of course, like all civilised countries, we don’t try to extract money from those we claim to own and who don’t live in our countries, unlike the USA. We don’t claim American citizens as UK tax payers because hey, their mother was British! But even if we did, guess which country in the world has made itself FATCA exempt? I guess you guessed it already. The USA. Want to hide money or ultimate ownership? USA is now the biggest tax haven on the planet. Delaware is a bit of a favourite!

                        It is estimated that the UK alone has spent a billion pounds on implementing FATCA under the threat of closure of their banks if they do not comply, a clear and flagrant abuse of the trust placed in you under the Bretton Woods agreement. That’s around $630 per UK household. Those costs WILL end up with UK retail consumers.

                        The worldwide implantation costs are expected to be around a trillion dollars, plus the ongoing costs.

                        And the expected income for the USA, in largely illegitimate taxes and disproportionate fines levied on other countries unfortunate enough to be infested with “US persons” is expected to be around 800 million dollars a year, a trifling amount eaten up in no time by the cost of dealing with millions of complex and usually zero income tax returns that are starting to flood in from the millions minding their own business in other countries, usually citizens of those countries.

                        Further costs are coming home to roost that will make your illegitimate fistful of dollars now look like chicken feed. You have shown yourselves to be immoral and hypocritical bullies capable of the most astonishing stupidity and arrogance, and while much of the world is still blissfully unware of what you have done, the financial world is painfully aware.

                        The ongoing costs of FATCA compliance, thousands of newly minted FATCA compliance officers all over the world, and the never ending threat of closure by the USA for not jumping when told or high enough, is more than enough for the world to start looking for alternatives to the dollar. It’s happening slowly, but it is happening. The BRICS are getting stronger, and you helped them. Now what do you think is going to happen when the world slowly stops supporting the dollar? You have proven yourselves unworthy of the trust placed in you and the world wonders what you might do next. There is a price to pay.

                        Then there is the little issue of competiveness in a global economy when your own people cannot live outside your borders or have financial accounts outside of your borders. And no, an American can no longer lead a normal life outside of the USA. He has to lead his life under a punitive tax regime, presumed criminal until he proves otherwise (FBAR has to be filed with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network) and with the constant threat of life destroying fines for as much as a simple reporting error where no tax was evaded or avoided.

                        And of course, the same punitive regime applies to any US resident with businesses or accounts overseas. The message is clear, do not engage in business in the world, it’s dangerous.

                        What you have done in enforcing your immoral tax code with FATCA is going to be disastrous for US exports and there is a precedent here. I don’t have the dates to hand, but I believe it was in the 70’s when congress passed a law that had Americans all over the world waking up to find that their combined tax liabilities exceeded their gross income. That was also the very last year that the USA had exports that exceeded their imports. That’s no coincidence.

                        Nobody wants to be near an American, they are toxic. Only a fool would marry one, be in business with one and even the financial world is saying no thank you to having Americans as clients. Even if you did want to open that UK account to sell, oh, Harley spares to England, you have a problem. One, you may well not get an account and two, once you have it then get ready for a very special tax and penalty club that can ruin you in a heartbeat.

                        I have checks here from the USA (which will stop this year, I no longer have any US investments) that I will not cash. Why? Because giving the bank any clue that you may have US indicia is dangerous. They only add up to a couple of hundred dollars, but they will remain pinned to my notice board.

                        Google ” I paid in a US check and became unbankable”. Some commentators think it was about fraud, but it was not. It was his sketchy US indicia that had the banks black listing him.

                        In the words of your professor Hayden Perryman…..

                        “”FATCA has caused so much misery for innocent Americans that had the regulation come from any other country it would probably have been treated as an International Incident.””

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”and if it’s unjust then I hope it can be changed.””

                        “Unjust” barely covers it. Calling FATCA and the US tax code unjust is like calling Adolf Hitler a naughty boy and world war two a little squabble.

                        Trump was the only candidate who appeared to see what the problem was, the others made some sympathetic noises but insisted that all should pay their “fair share”.

                        If there is any good at all to come from the monstrosity that is FATCA, it is that is has highlighted the idiocy, unfairness and human rights abusing effects of the US tax code by ensuring nobody can hide from it.

                        I believe it was one of your wise men that said the best way to get bad law repealed was to vigorously enforce that law. He may well be proven right in this case.

                        Unfortunately it’s an uphill battle when those back home see Americans abroad as traitors who jumped ship and are avoiding paying their fair share.

                      • And if that’s your cause go ahead and fight for it.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I have. You see, that’s the irony here. Educating Americans to the fact that they now live in the biggest open prison on the planet is a thankless task, usually met with complete denial and much shooting of the messenger. Meanwhile, I have paid out good money on their behalf in order to fight this monstrosity through the courts. Yip, I paid out good money to fight a law that does not exist. Priceless, no?

                      • There you go again! Projecting up the wazoo. “Educating Americans to the fact that they now live in the biggest open prison on the planet” Well, looks like you’re more of a slave to it that I am! “Meanwhile, I have paid out good money on their behalf in order to fight this monstrosity through the courts.” Keep up the nice work! Or you can just send me money instead. “I paid out good money to fight a law that does not exist.” Oh, it doesn’t? You’ve got a helluva sense of humor!

                      • William The Warlord

                        Bluesman,please expound on your theory of Trump the Tyrant. We are interested in your outside opinion.What makes you think our armed population can or will not restrain Trump the Tyrant from violating the Constitution.If Obama did not dare exceed his legal and Constitutional power,why do you think Trump the Tyrant will.

                        President Trump will drain the swamp and repeal everything Obama created.He will repeal FATCA!He will befriend Russia and make NATO pay its full share.President Trump will destroy the ISIS Caliphate and scatter the terrorists https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b4c0d06179e1d22796ee4e313de89136c9cb5fd98ee51fa6d60d1a473d15fab9.jpg to the sanctuaries of Europe.President Trump will protect the Second Amendment and force full firearms permit reciprocity on the Democratic states.President Trump will build the Great Wall of Trump!What more could America want or need.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Bluesman,please expound on your theory of Trump the Tyrant. We are interested in your outside opinion.”
                        Trump is not draining the swamp but refilling it with alligators! Look at the racists, religious nuts, grovelling hypocrites and ‘mad dogs’ with whom he is choosing to surround himself.

                        You trust a racist, misogynist, serial groping, tax evader who is already reneging on his campaign bombast to make America great? Has he released his tax returns? Not yet. Is he going to build a real wall all along the border? Probably not now. Is he going to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton? No. Is he going to reinstate torture? Probably not. Does he think climate change is man-made? He’s now got an open mind. is he going to “.. open up our libel laws so when they write purposely negative and horrible and false articles, we can sue them and win lots of money,” No he isn’t.

                        Does the example of those who sued him for selling a false bill of goods in the ‘Trump University’ scam, which had to settle for $25,000,000 , although claiming that he could have won it, not mean anything to you? His history of bankrupt businesses convinced you that he is a good businessman? Someone who won over unemployed steel workers by promising to stop imports of Chinese steel, which he used in at least 2 of his last 3 construction projects? He sold you a pack of lies and your country fell for them.

                        There was another fraud who rose to power by playing on the fears and resentments of the people, promising to make his country great again and blaming both external and internal enemies. His reign did not end well.

                        Unlike Obama who was blocked by a Republican Majority, there is no serious check on Trump. Even many of those in the Republican party who fought him are looking to their political careers rather than the interests of the country. Marco Rubio called Trump a “con man” and then supported him. Ted Cruz called him a “sniveling coward” and a “serial philanderer” and eventually came around. Chris Christie dismissed him as the “entertainer in chief” and said he would be worse than President Obama. Then Christie became Trump’s first high-profile GOP supporter! Mitt Romney said “Here’s what I know. Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud. His promises are as worthless as a degree from Trump University.” Now he wants to be Secretary of State for the phony fraud who makes worthless promises!

                        “What more could America want or need.”
                        Somebody with the will and ability to actually deliver on all the promises he made without tearing the USA apart in the process. You have handed power to a man without a conscience or principles, driven by greed and vanity, who is surrounding himself with the elites he claimed to be removing, but this time it is the lunatic fringe of that elite. He has sold you a fantasy of miraculous cures, of magic beans. Years ago he would have been selling snake oil to the gullible.You have no more idea of what he will actually do than the ‘Trump University’ dupes who gave him their cash. He is likely be one of the greatest forces for division in the USA since the days of George “segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever,” Wallace.

                        The fact that so many Americans, on both sides, have guns will make the divisions even more ‘interesting’.

                      • Mike Breen

                        In another discussion, William has proved himself to be yet another gun nut who cannot tell fact from fiction and who draws the most astonishingly incorrect conclusions from the facts put before him, and he lies. Yet again, a perfect example of why gun control is so important.
                        He’s right about one thing though. Trump was the only candidate approached who appeared to have any understanding of the combined and unmitigated disaster of the US tax code and FATCA. That said, it’s terrifying that a government that could pass such a monstrosity could have a nut case like Trump at the helm.

                      • jarhead1982

                        You are indeed an experienced pedophile and pathological liar refusing to acknowledge that rate of risk is directly tied to being involved in the criminal lifestyle you defend

                      • Moreover, “Your ‘one third’ assertion is wrong too!
                        In 2015 of the 15,192 homicides recorded by the FBI 7,068 were non-gun, i.e 46% not 33%. 46% of 5.1 is 2.37” Not if you’re talking about MURDERS, 69% OF WHICH ARE BY GUN. Sorry, but I’m beginning to think your prejudices and biases are just making you stupid.

                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2008-2012.xls

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        No. Of the 15192 homicides 8,124 were committed with firearms. That is 53% not 69%.

                        You can run but you can’t count.

                        You seem to be trying to make some sort of distinction between homicides and murders. Feel free to explain what you are trying to say.

                      • Well feel free to show the source for 2015 if you have it, otherwise it’s you that can’t count! That would be a pretty big change. I’ll wait.

                        True, homicide is not the same as murder or didn’t you know.

                        Yes I fixed it, hunky dory. Now, scroll up, Einstein, and you’ll see in this voluminous thread I wrote: ‘And again, “more than twice ours” is incorrect: The non-gun homicide rate would be 4.7/3=1.6, which is 1.6/1.2=1.3, not 2.’ So in this cutting and pasting where I’ve had to repeat what I say because you don’t get it the first time I copied 1.3 instead of 1.6. And now I’m not only cutting and pasting what I already said but even quoting myself back to you. Bon apetit.

                        Because all you can do is run away from the truly staggering numbers, the black homicide rate which is 18/2.2=8 times higher than it is for non-black/Hispanic, or 100x(18-2.2)/2.2=720% higher. It’s the elephant in the room you keep trying to run away from, over and over and over again.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                        It doesn’t fit your narrative so you are in denial and will do anything and everything to distract, deflect, and run away.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                        Your willful ignorance, emotionally-driven blindness, and Orwellian double-think is on full display. And since you mentioned Trump I’ll let you in on something else. The election of Trump is a long overdue correction, perhaps an overcorrection but a correction nonetheless. And it is people like YOU who elected him. You want to believe comfortable lies rather than face uncomfortable truths. It’s worse than bigotry and stupidity. It’s a genuine craving for totalitarianism and dependency, stifling the diversity of thought, a mutual dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of blinkeredness and helplessness, a mental prison of Orwellian hegemony. It is born of self-disgust, jealousy, and schadenfreude, seeks to tear down rather than lift up, an infantile misery-loves-company destructiveness and is in itself hateful and bigoted.

                        You can run but you can’t hide.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Justfied police killings. You need to start asking if they were necessary, a last resort to save an innocent life. They rarely are, they are merely “justified” under the rules that allow your police officers to murder people.

                      • That’s a bit silly, frankly.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Silly? A police force that kill people for not complying and being a threat? Yes, silly.

                      • Silly you, not the police.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I’m glad you are happy with a murderous police force. The world looks on in wonder.

                      • You can run but you can’t hide. You cannot blame high black and Hispanic crime rates on the police.

                      • Mike Breen

                        The police are the ones pulling the trigger, usually because they can.

                      • Actually, it’s because sometimes somebody just needs to get shot.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Unarmed people not doing as they are told do not need to get shot. Living in the USA, I expect that this is a novel concept to you.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        As a UK police officer for 30 years the concept of shooting unarmed people for not doing what I told them to do is, indeed, extremely novel! Fortunately I never encountered anyone who just needed to get shot. I wonder why?

                      • Mike Breen

                        You mean you never encountered a threat who would not comply? Oh, I expect you did. The difference is that you were not given a gun and permission to use it rather than risk breaking a finger nail. You probably used some people skills rather than barking orders while preparing to escalate force as required in order to get compliance. US police are a horror.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Plenty of them. Verbal skills first. Physical force if verbal commands were not sufficient. Guns were never needed.

                      • GAU-8
                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes, once for every 1,400,000 people per day!

                        But I never needed a gun to achieve control or arrest anybody.

                        Bear in mind that a ‘firearms operation’ is one in which officers are authorised to deploy firearms, on the basis of the available information, not one in which they were actually fired, or even aimed. On that basis every time a US police officer goes out on patrol with a gun would be counted in the UK as a ‘firearms operation’.

                        There were six incidents in which the UK police discharged firearms in the year ending March 2015, up from two incidents in the previous year. 3 people were shot dead.

                        If US police shot people at the same rate as the British, there would have been 18 deaths in 2015. There were actually 1,010 such deaths, 56 times as many.
                        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men

                      • GAU-8

                        You weren’t authorized. Remember? Very few police in US draw their weapon ever. In NYC a study showed it to be about 1 in 800.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        That’s right. I didn’t need to be. Britain is not so violent and homicidal that all officers need to be armed.

                        ” Very few police in US draw their weapon ever.”
                        Just enough to shoot dead over 1,000 people per year. There don’t seem to be any statistics kept on how many people they only wound or miss!

                      • GAU-8

                        Justified self defense. That’s right you can’t be disproportionate.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Just in 55 times as much danger as the British obviously. Mind you that unarmed carer shot whilst sitting on the pavement, hands up and talking to the police, had a nasty glint in his eye!

                      • You’re being stupid. For one thing, justification for the use of deadly force has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone is armed or not. For another, nearly 1,000 people are killed by police every year. They don’t get shot for stealing hubcaps.

                        Honestly, I don’t know how you can possibly be so stupid.

                      • Mike Breen

                        That’s right, thousand a year shot dead by police. And yes, they don’t even need to be armed to get shot. Yes you think it’s normal, but then you are an American. Believe it or not, police in civilised countries don’t just shoot people dead by the hundreds.

                      • Don’t add bigotry to your stupidity. Don’t blame the police for doing what they’re supposed to do. Sometimes somebody just needs to get shot. That’s why they get shot.

                      • Mike Breen

                        As an American who has almost certainly never even left the country, it’s quite normal that you would think this way. Meanwhile, the rest of the first world looks on in horror.

                      • And you ignore everything that you don’t want to see or acknowledge. That’s stupid.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Like you ignore the fact that your police are lethal in a way that no other first world country can hold a candle to?

                      • jarhead1982

                        You’re right, No one should ever consider your immoral perversions rants and ravings as having anything to do with anyone’s inherent rights

                      • You’re being stupid, projecting your prejudices. Stop trying to tell me what I think or where I’ve been. Honestly, I don’t know how you can possibly be so stupid.

                        Nobody’s ignoring anything, you idiot. The police deal with violent criminals. You can ignore that if you want to but it’s stupid to blame the police.

                      • Mike Breen

                        The police in all countries deal with violent criminals but don’t simply kill them. Why do the police in the USA?

                      • Because we have the kind of violent criminals that need to get shot – is this a trick question?

                        How ’bout you take a look at the number of cops killed in the line of duty? It would be an eye opener.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I get it. Some cops get shot in the line of duty, so they need to shoot unarmed people for not complying. Really, I got it. It’s all very odd given that the US pro gun argument is so often based on the UK being a terribly violent place, because we’re not scaring the criminals with our guns. Yet your cops get shot dead in the dozens and the cops shoot hundreds dead. Really, something wrong with the pro gun nuts argument here.

                      • It’s not a “pro gun argument”, it’s called the right of the people. And the people have rights because they have responsibilities to defend innocent life and to safeguard the nation’s liberty.

                        It’s not about the guns, it’s about the motivations and causes. There is nothing wrong with America’s gun culture; it’s vibrant and healthy, and the shooting sports are among the safest sports there are.

                        It’s a violent crime culture that we have to be concerned with. And that is very strongly correlated with demographics. We have an overall homicide rate for a recent year of 4.7 per 100K. But if we break it down we get: Black 18, Hispanic 4.5, White 2.2, and the UK was 1.2. Just think about that for a minute, look at the difference:

                        Black 18
                        White 2.2

                        That is extraordinary, and it’s awful. We live in the same country and are governed by the same laws, including gun laws. The white folks own most of the guns, probably almost all the guns. So it’s not the guns doing it, and whatever effect the “easy access” to guns may have, it’s dwarfed by socioeconomic factors. It’s a sad legacy we’ve yet to grapple with.

                        And you know what the real sad thing is? “Liberal” folks can’t even talk about it. It’s the elephant in the room, and the Orwellian hegemony of the left is so pervasive and permeating that leftists seem to think they can not only ignore the elephant in the room but even sweep the elephant under the rug! Why? Because it makes black folks look bad, it runs against the grain of their precious narrative and secular faith. But how can we help them if we can’t even talk about it, the terrible conditions that cause something like a homicide rate 8 times higher, and this 150 years after our Civil War, 50 years after Jim Crow, and we have this, now, today? Why? What can we do, does anyone even bother to ask?

                        And for all that, all the people dead, all the gunfire etc., it is but a symptom of a deep systemic divide. Wrangling over the symptoms, gun control or whatever, is a side show and a waste of energy and time, however well intentioned, by good white folks on both sides. It’s pointless. Cocaine is not made inside our borders but it gets shipped here by the ton. Take hopelessness, poverty and despair, throw in lots of drugs and money, and guns are sure to follow. We have to deal with the root causes. Gun control won’t fix it any more than it took down Al Capone.

                      • P.S. “I get it. Some cops get shot in the line of duty, so they need to shoot unarmed people for not complying. Really, I got it.” No, with all due respect you do not get it at all. The justification for the use of deadly force has absolutely nothing to do with whether the subject is armed with a gun or any other weapon. You should disabuse yourself of that notion once and for all. Furthermore, police do not shoot people for “not complying”. They shoot in self-defense, or to protect other innocents from harm. That’s it, or at least that’s the rules of engagement. Any violation of that can and does result in prosecution and imprisonment.

                        You can only use deadly force in the face of an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm. All this is well-known and easily verified if you want to be reliably informed.

                        The point about the police getting killed in the line of duty is to underscore the kind of threats they have to face. It puts the 1K people killed by police every year into some perspective. Some decades ago we had over 100 police killed per year, now it’s about 50, or 5% of 1K, which is still a pretty big margin if you want to compare the two.

                      • Mike Breen

                        In 2013, UK police fired three shots, and nobody died. Your police can’t even keep track of people shot and killed, let alone individual shots. Your police reach for guns too early and have permission to kill anybody who threatens them. I have absolutely no doubt that if we imported US police, we would have dozens getting killed by them, despite our police not doing the same now.

                      • Are you really, really, that stupid? Are cops in your country killed at the same rate they are here? Idiots like you blame everything except the real cause: the criminal.

                      • Mike Breen

                        No, I’m not stupid at all. I just wonder why your police shoot dead a threat as a matter of course while police in civilised countries take risks to put that man before a court.

                      • Yes, you really are stupid if police being killed in the line of duty does not evince the kind of threats they face in their jobs. It is stupid for you to blame the police for violent crime and criminals. And don’t be such a bigot, as for your “civilized countries” crap.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I understand your police face the problem of a gun infested country, but it still does not explain their willingness to kill anybody who may not be complying and who may present a risk to them when that person clearly does not have a gun.
                        For example, a simple search on YouTube will present multiple examples of police in other countries actually taking a risk and breaking a sweat in order to arrest dangerous and armed people, whereas your police would have shot them dead and guess what? “Justified”.
                        You have a problem with the lethal police force.

                      • It seems you’re the one with the problem. Justification for the use of deadly force, again, has nothing to do with whether someone has a gun or any other weapon; you’re simply ignorant. For every 20 people killed by the police, a cop is killed in the line of duty – the cops aren’t shooting people for stealing hubcaps. Examples of police mistakes or misconduct does not add up to 1,000 killings a year. You’re sticking your head in the sand to justify your own prejudices and beliefs. Everything to avoid facing the reality of violent crime. It is not intelligent and borders on a kind of brainwashing.

                      • Mike Breen

                        You can’t explain why your cops kill so may people who are not threatening them with guns, when other countries do not.

                      • Sorry, you’re just too stupid. And yes, you are brainwashed, big time! It’s not all about you and your petty agenda.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I don’t believe I am stupid and I don’t believe I’m brainwashed. Of course, you might dismiss my opinion more easily if the first world country in which I currently reside was some sort of exception when it comes to police restraint, but NO first world country can come close to the numbers shot dead by the police in the USA. I would suggest it’s you that has been brainwashed in to believing your situation is normal and that those shot dead by police had only themselves to blame.
                        Again, I understand US police face a unique situation in a first world country due to your gun problem, but how do you explain the sheer numbers shot dead who had no gun? If you could try and get beyond telling me those killings were “justified”, I would really like to hear your explanation.

                      • Hi Mike, Happy Thanksgiving.

                        As for what is “normal”, let’s just go with “different.” And it’s not a “gun problem” but a socioeconomic one when it comes to the overall homicide rate, which has a very strong racial correlation (see below). As for shot dead with no gun, again, that is irrelevant, and you really ought to learn that – do not get fixated on and obsessed with guns. Use of deadly force has to do with an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm.

                        You’re making idiotic, simple-minded assumptions and extrapolations regarding police use of force. So it’s different from other countries and you want to know why, fine, but don’t assume it’s the fault of the police. For one thing, the media narrative often deals in raw numbers designed to mislead, rather than percentages and per capita data. For another, we have a very different matrix of violent crime here – urban violence, the drug war, a higher homicide rate strongly correlated along racial lines, etc. But if it’s easier and more palatable for you to believe that police kill/murder 1,000 people a year just because they’re trigger happy then you probably will, and I can’t help that.

                        Or you might consider a more nuanced approach and actually try to understand it. For example, police are killed in the US at a rate 5 times higher than the UK, roughly (the data sets are statistically small so it’s a loose number). Therefore, we expect they would kill at a higher rate as well. However, there is no reason to expect this to scale linearly, because it’s not just about death. Police are permitted to use deadly force only in the face of imminent threat of death or great/grave bodily harm to self or other innocents (not, as you might think, simply because they do not “comply”). For every cop killed there may be 4 or 5 times that many that suffer great bodily harm and survive (a ratio that is common in wartime casualties) – and that includes getting your head stomped into the pavement, getting your ribs kicked in or your face smashed, getting paralyzed by a bullet through the spine, etc. A violent criminal who engages a cop generally uses deadly force to try and escape. But a cop engaging a criminal will shoot to stop the threat and apprehend him. That may well involve a higher probability of death. Therefore the scale is not linear: while police may be killed in the US at a rate 5 times higher than the UK, those in the US may kill at a rate of 20 or 25 times higher (again, very roughly), in justifiable use of force.

                        This is very sketchy and just one possible line of speculation as to the causes. There are undoubtedly other factors involved and other differences between the US and other Western nations when it comes to violent crime. It is an important question to consider. But it should not be used as a platform for simple-minded propaganda.

                        In another parallel thread I was talking about the racial disparity in homicides per 100K in the US:

                        White 2.2
                        Black 18

                        That is a staggering difference to have in the same country where the people are governed by the same laws, including the same gun laws. It is part of a sad legacy we’ve yet to grapple with effectively.

                        So do we really want to understand the causes of violence or do we just want to blame the police or white privilege or something stupid like that?

                      • Mike Breen

                        Your police are too quick to draw guns even when not faced by a gun themselves. They are paramilitary and authoritarian, quick to use force and violence simply to enforce their orders and get compliance, not in self defence. US police believe they are above the people, better than the people, a force in their own right.

                        They are shooting and killing people because they can, not because they must.

                        You know, some US forces have worked out what the problem is and have made a difference. If every police killing was necessary and justified, as was claimed by Richmond for many years, how come the police killings stopped following the appointment of a new chief?

                        Google…. “”Use of deadly force by police disappears on Richmond streets””.

                        Links don’t seem to work too well around here. I can show you multiple YouTube videos where European police are tackling armed and dangerous criminals who arrest the man using any and all methods they can short of simply shooting him. You and I both know that a man wielding a machete at US police would be dead in a heart beat.

                      • Well, you’ve got a lot of beliefs going on there. But as I’ve illustrated, if you really want to establish anything, getting beyond simple suspicion and prejudice, you’ve got a long way to go.

                        The Richmond experience is a very small data set, and, from the article, “Since then, violent crime in the city has plunged” which, naturally, can also be a factor in the number of police shootings.

                      • Here’s another thing to consider, possible unintended consequences. From a comment on another forum:

                        “I know what the cops that I am close to have said about it. And it is not a good thing, imo. They do not like to put themselves in dangerous situations in which they might need to pull their guns anymore. There is no upside for them to do so. They may not be supported by their command if they decide to do so. They may lose their job and their pensions and their reputation if they have to use their weapon. So if they see 4 teens driving around at 3 am, do they want to stop them? They used to 100% stop them and see what they were up to. But now they would possibly face criticism, for profiling, for stopping without cause, and worse, they may have a confrontation with another weapon. And that is a lose/lose for cops these days.

                        “Even if they get dispatched to a call about a mentally ill person brandishing a gun or a knife, if it goes sideways, their own career and freedom is at risk. So when there is a lot of pressure not to use any force, then cops are going to try and avoid situations where it might be needed. If they see a strange car in a parking lot at 2 am, they might just drive on by because it is ‘politically’ dangerous for them to enter into a confrontation these days.”

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “For example, police are killed in the US at a rate 5 times higher than the UK, roughly (the data sets are statistically small so it’s a loose number).”

                        A bit too rough I’m afraid! The ‘Officer Down Memorial’ website lists 645 US officers killed by gunfire, vehicular assault, stabbing and assault between 2006 and 2015. I have not counted accidental road deaths, 9/11 and other deaths that were not due to direct aggressive action by an offender.
                        ( https://www.odmp.org/ )
                        A similar page in the UK, records 12 such deaths in the same period across the whole UK, including Northern Ireland.
                        ( http://www.policerollofhonour.org.uk/index.html )

                        The US Census Bureau shows your population 322,761,807 on 1/1/16
                        UK figures show 65.100,000 for 2015.

                        The entire UK population is about 1/4.95 that of the USA

                        If American officers were killed at the same rate as UK officers there would have been around 60 deaths in that period. In fact there were 645.

                        In fact, US officers are deliberately killed at 10.75 times the rate of those in the UK, more than twice your guess.

                        “For every cop killed there may be 4 or 5 times that many that suffer great bodily harm and survive (a ratio that is common in wartime casualties) – and that includes getting your head stomped into the pavement, getting your ribs kicked in or your face smashed, getting paralyzed by a bullet through the spine, etc.”
                        As a former, unarmed, UK police officer, I am well aware of the dangers of injury posed in dealing with violent criminals, although I do not share your confidence in the comparison with wartime casualties that you quote.

                        What is obvious though, is that, whilst UK officers generally have only physical means such as bodily force, batons, sprays and sometimes Tasers to defend themselves, they manage to do so with a lot less death!

                        “… those in the US may kill at a rate of 20 or 25 times higher (again, very roughly), in justifiable use of force.”

                        In the first 15 years of this century, 37 people have died at the hands of the UK police, mainly having been shot, an average of 2.5 per year.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom

                        The list is, admittedly incomplete, but then so is that in the USA where there is not even any central recording of such deaths or requirement to report them! Over the same period a very conservative estimate is over 1000 per year. It is probably much higher.
                        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/series/counted-us-police-killings

                        So the armed US police kill at a rate at least 80 times that of the mainly unarmed UK police.

                        A largely unarmed and relatively peaceful country like ours can function with a largely unarmed police force. A widely armed and violent society like yours needs an armed police force. Sadly that need seems to produce a repressive and trigger-happy system in which a sizeable proportion of those shot dead are unarmed. The widespread availability of firearms leads to the possibility of any confrontation with the police turning deadly.

                      • Again you’re extrapolating and assuming, “trigger happy”, “unarmed”, “availability of firearms”, are the factors that account for the differences, and you just have not established that as cause and effect. That is just simplistic and prejudicial. There is so much you don’t know and are not taking into account. I really don’t think you want to, but rather you want to believe in your narrative and your prejudices to make you feel good about yourself. I see this behavior all the time, particularly on the left, and it’s even more pronounced in the nanny states and countries.

                        And as for UK being “relatively peaceful”, word is overall violent crime is no lower there, and the UK is one of the most violent countries in western Europe.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “And as for UK being “relatively peaceful”, word is overall violent crime is no lower there, and the UK is one of the most violent countries in western Europe.”

                        Actually the word is ‘Nonsense’. I’m sick of repeatedly pasting the actual figures for the benefit of deluded Americans. This article sums up the position pretty well.
                        https://rayrayallday.com/2013/01/11/the-difference-between-us-uk-violent-crime-rates-depends-on-definition-of-violent-crime/

                      • Yeah, you manage to be the most violent country in Europe – no wonder your Parliament rulers don’t let you little boys play with guns!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You’re doing a Donald again and just making stuff up!

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”And as for UK being “relatively peaceful”, word is overall violent crime is no lower there, and the UK is one of the most violent countries in western Europe.””

                        I find it astonishing that this totally debunked nonsense is still being repeated. That said, even our own media fell for it. It’s a statistic caused by the way the UK records so much petty nonsense under the category of “violent crime”, nothing more.

                      • Oh okay.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Furthermore, police do not shoot people for “not complying”. They shoot in self-defense, or to protect other innocents from harm.”
                        What, like this you mean?

                        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/charles-kinsey-shooting-police-officer-shot-carer-therapist-aiming-patient-toy-truck-black-lives-a7149791.html

                        “Some decades ago we had over 100 police killed per year, now it’s about 50,”
                        58 so far this year. How does this happen in the ‘less violent than the UK’ USA, where you have guns to keep you safe.?

                      • Now you’re just being stupid.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Our police deal with violent criminals, as do first world police all over the world. None of them reach for guns and kill like yours do.

                      • And we have the kind of criminals that need to be stopped with a gun. Stop blaming the police for doing their job, that is stupid.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Horror that our murder rate is 110 th out of 206 countries with 109 gun ban paradises with higher murder rates

                        Which based on your irrational rantings we should be number 1 simply because we own the most guns…..

                        So easy data whupping ignorant trolls like Mukey pedo puffer

                      • jarhead1982

                        Oh that’s right, Governments do that, so noted

                      • jarhead1982

                        In the US where over 45,000 police are injured or killed in the line of duty each year by such criminals and supposed unarmed criminals like you we see you need to instruct criminals like yourself to behave then, let us know when you have forced your criminal brethren to behave pervert

                      • Mike Breen

                        Yup, so many US police killed and injured. Say, given you reckon we are so much more violent, how come it is a great rarity for of our police to be killed, despite the fact they don’t just shoot dead any threat?

                      • jarhead1982

                        Culture is the reason, UK culture hasnt had the uber violent subspecies of criminal like you running around and prevalent in the rather large 1.4 million and counting cartel/gang members in the US

                      • jarhead1982

                        Since the massive majority of those shot were indeed criminals like you, what again is the problem with fewer perverts like you running around?

                      • Mike Breen

                        Go away, imbecile.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Make me liar.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I don’t need to make you a liar, you are already a liar. You are a mentally disturbed pathological liar.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Can’t even comprehend simple English as the UK paedophile can’t make me leave or stop and instead he tries pathetically to twist words as he has proven long ago to be unethical and utterly and completely morally bankrupt, such is the life of such regressivekuntfairies lke uk pedo boy

                      • Mike Breen

                        Gee, that post sure made you like a normal human being…NOT!

                      • jarhead1982

                        Says the UK pedophile

                      • Old Jarhead

                        Have a wonderful Thanksgiving, JH. Blessings and peace to you and your family. I will be minding a ham on the smoker for a lot of today, so it will be hit-n-miss being on. Ham is on, drinking coffee right now, beer in the fridge for some serious cooking later.

                      • Jo

                        Happy TH, Jarheads

                      • Old Jarhead

                        You too, lovely lady. Enjoy spending this time with friends and family!

                      • jarhead1982

                        Thanks OJ you do the same, yeah can’t beat moms cooking, went to the parents as pop not feeling too hot as he just started dialysis but he is set up to do it at home while he sleeps and after 3-4 weeks should be feeling better (they’re in the 80’s), Christmas came early as picked up a sweet16 for $700 rated over 85% in great condition

                      • Mike Breen

                        Random and baseless accusations of peadophilia are just one of the many symptoms of your mental state.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Random and baseless accusations of law abiding gun owners of being responsible for all the violence result in the anti gunphaggits making that claim being identified as paedophiles and until you act like an adult you’re a Paedophile, your choice liar

                      • jarhead1982

                        Silly, a UK government locking up people who defend themselves from criminals like you

                      • Mike Breen

                        Yup, you are definitely on the drugs again!

                      • jarhead1982

                        Yup, the goat STD has rotted your brain completely we see…..

    • judi m

      If someone were to break into my house, and home break-ins are not uncommon, I feel safe because I own a gun.

    • 5_ever

      Where could they steal guns from if there are no guns to steal? Use your brain, genius.

    • Pingback: Gun Control or Gun Banishment? | Gun Control Violence and Safety()

    • Box of Wine

      Mass shootings after 1996 in australia = NONE

      • PeaceMaker

        I’ll raise you a Switzerland, many guns lower violent crime than Australia

        • Box of Wine

          Meanwhile Japan Trumps Switzerland. LOL

          • Mark W

            Japan has twice the suicide rate as the US and they have no guns. They are also an island Nation with almost zero immigration or ethnic diversity so they don’t make for a great comparison. BTW, I assume you enjoy wine by your name, according to the CDC roughly 90,000 Americans die every year from Alcohol related causes, more than all homicides, suicides and motor vehicles combined. Are you in favor of bringing back prohibition?

      • Ted120

        mass shooting are a tiny fraction of the gun deaths in the US

      • pocketdrummer

        The total homicide rate for Australia ROSE after the ban and it didn’t come back down until 2003. What’s important to notice is this follows a global trend. Armed robberies are still higher than they were in pre-ban Australia.

        http://www.aic.gov.au/dataTools/facts/vicViolentCol.html

        • Mike Breen

          I like the way NRA and friends point to the UK to show how gun bans are bad, blaming the 1997 act for everything except global warming. The only problem is this……The act could not be responsible for any change in crime patterns. Those who understand the situation in 1996 and what the “gun ban” actually did in 1997 would not be blaming that ban for anything at all.

          • pocketdrummer

            Just to be clear, are you under the impression that I’m blaming the gun ban for an increase in crime rates?

            • Mike Breen

              That would be the normal pattern, and there was no gun ban.

            • Mike Breen

              You’re not? That would be unusual.

      • Scooter

        Also only 1/3 of people gave up their firearms so.. It wasn’t a REAL ban LOL

    • sik3xploit

      The best thing ever is people who like to focus on an increase or decrease in gun homicides, but will absolutely ignore what has happened to violent crime in total.

    • 5_ever

      Exactly, because we typically see criminals toting homemade guns in the UK. LOL.

      • Ted120

        Naa they have stolen guns

        • Bluesman1950

          In the UK criminals very rarely have any sort of firearms. That is why 94% of the police in the UK are not even authorised to carry firearms. No UK police officer has been shot dead since 2012. In the USA 55 oficers have been shot dead in 2016 alone.

          • Ted120

            ya agree..but the UK confiscated all guns a while ago…that will not happen in the US. Since that breakup we had in 1776 with the UK the feeling here is that citizens can and should be allowed to keep and bear arms.

            I an see how what happens here is perceived over there but what you have to remember is that over 90% of the gun crime happens in our inner cities where we have been unable/unwilling to deal with the real issues….

            • Bluesman1950

              The UK ‘confiscated’ about 0.1% of the population’s handguns in 1997. Before that the other 99.9% of the country didn’t possess such guns anyway!

              Most of our violent crime happens in our inner cities too. We just have far less of it than you in the USA.

              • Ted120

                Correct although that was not the case in Australia…

                and ya you have less crime in your inner cities…different country

                and there are some in UK that want to have guns.
                http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3644/britain_wants_its_guns_back

                in the US its our RIGHT..

                • Bluesman1950

                  We try not to let the mentally disturbed have access to anything too dangerous.

                  • Two Americas

                    How quaint!

                    Here, we put them in charge.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      Build that beauntiful wall!

                      • Two Americas

                        I think the Trump transition team is already recruiting undocumented workers from Mexico to build it. Then, they will not be paid – Trump has a lot of experience with that – and they will be deported. Trump will then sneer, and say “see? I told you Mexico would pay for the wall!”

                        Meanwhile, he will be doing basically the same thing to the working class people in the US who voted for him.

                        The good news is that he is going to outlaw climate change, so we won’t have to worry about that anymore.

                • Bluesman1950

                  “and there are some in UK that want to have guns.
                  http://www.thecommentator.com/…”

                  Thanks for the hilarious link, although I have already posted extensively on that dishonest nonsense.

                  The article was online, could be voted on by anybody in the world and was extensively recirculated by American pro-gun websites, so it is hardly representative of the views of Britain.

                  3 online petitions to Parliament, on which only Britons could vote, to relax the firearms laws received a grand total of less than 2000 votes put together! A petition to keep Donald Trump out of the UK got over half a million.
                  https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003

                  Even if absolutely every single one of those 9,193 was genuinely from a British registered elector, of whom there were 46,354,197 at the last count that would be 1 in every 5,042 supporting it. Not really enough to consider changing the law.

                  “in the US its our RIGHT..”
                  In the UK we consider it our right to be protected by keeping, as far as possible, guns out of the hands of the mad, bad and stupid.

                  • Ted120

                    “In the UK we consider it our right to be protected by keeping, as far as possible, guns out of the hands of the mad, bad and stupid”

                    Same here only here where no one expects that anyone could ever collect all guns…WE count on out RIGHT to protect ourselves with firearms…the founders of this country who learned from the UK where citizens could not own a gun believed we should all be allowed to have guns and that will never change here…

                    • Bluesman1950

                      “…no one expects that anyone could ever collect all guns…”

                      I agree it will never change. Your murder rate is likely to remain around 5 times ours too.

                      • Ted120

                        our “murder rate” is concentrated in our inner cities where mostly minority men kill othere minority men with illegal firearms…….this will be solved when someone decides to enforce gun laws

                        In the US the correlation between gun ownership (legal) and gun crime is zero…in other words knowing that almost 1/2 the pop has a gun at home does not predict “gun crime”…I live in a town of 5,500 people west of Boston…we have not had a “gun crime” in over 40 YEARS…impose that 5,500 on any section of a large city in the US by population and the difference is dramatic.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “our “murder rate” is concentrated in our inner cities ”
                        Guess where most UK murders are committed?

                        “..I live in a town of 5,500 people west of Boston…we have not had a “gun crime” in over 40 YEARS…”
                        In the USA that may be impressive, in the UK that would be pretty unsurprising.

                        Your least homicidal state has a murder rate equivalent to the entire UK, with all its cities and minorities.

                      • Ted120

                        Soooo lets agree on this…If the criminals have guns (and some of yours do too – ours have a lot more), then if ya don’t enforce the gun laws you will have more murders as the scum shoot each other…

                        the rest of us are just fine and have guns to protect us from the scum…works for me

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “the rest of us are just fine and have guns to protect us from the scum…works for me”
                        If all shootings were just criminals shooting just criminals, I would not shed too many tears. However that is not what happens in the USA.

                        Criminals shoot other criminals.
                        Criminals shoot innocent victims.
                        Criminals shoot innocent bystanders.
                        Criminals shoot police officers.
                        Police officers shoot unarmed people and kids with toy guns they think are criminals.
                        Homeowners shoot innocent people in mistake for intruders.
                        Children shoot other children and adults.
                        Adults shoot adults and children by mistake or accident.
                        husbands and wives shoot each other.
                        Etc., etc., etc.
                        http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

                        Very few criminals in the UK possess guns and only very rarely carry them regularly. Part of the reason we had 21 firearms homicides last year in England and Wales, whilst you had 8,124.

                      • Ted120

                        criminals in the UK doi have guns and citizens are defenseless.

                        Spare me the liberal BS about guns…MOST gun deaths in the US are criminals shooting criminals….and in my state in one year we lost 50 women to men who they had kicked out…most we beaten or stabbed to death ….not one had a gun for protection..

                        here is the reality

                        CDC Study: Use of Firearms for Self-Defense is ‘Important Crime Deterrent’
                        “Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states.
                        The report, which notes that “ violent crimes, including homicides specifically, have declined in the past five years,” also pointed out that “some firearm violence results in death, but most does not.” In fact, the CDC report said, most incidents involving the discharge of firearms do not result in a fatality.
                        http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “criminals in the UK doi have guns and citizens are defenseless”
                        Sorry, you obviously have more information on the topic of arms possession amongst British criminals than I gathered in my 30 years as a frontline UK police officer. Strangely, I never encountered a single burglar, drug dealer or robber who was actually armed when I arrested them. I must have been very lucky!

                        Odd that only 21 “defenceless” Britons were shot dead last year, compared with the 8,124 who might have had a gun for protection who were killed in the USA.

                      • Ted120

                        we have the guns – they are not going away nor is our right to bear arms…as I showed above guns are used extensively to defend us from armed and unarmed thugs…..like this scumbag…..get over it.

                        http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/10/16449815-911-tape-shoot-him-again-husband-tells-wife-hiding-from-home-intruder

                      • Bluesman1950

                        And it’s because so many of you have guns that you need to defend yourself from all the other armed Americans! Not a problem we have over here.

          • GAU-8

            “In the UK we consider it our right to be protected by keeping, as far as possible, guns out of the hands of the mad, bad and stupid.” – Bluesman1950

            “94% of the police in the UK are not even authorised to carry firearms” – Bluesman1950

            Which category did you fall in?

            • Bluesman1950

              One of the 94% of officers who did not need or want to carry firearms.

              How about you, mad, bad or stupid?

              • GAU-8

                I’m not a Brit, so according to your classification it would be none of the above.

                • Bluesman1950

                  Self-awareness not your strong point then I see.

                  • GAU-8

                    I’m perfectly aware of how jealous you are of the US, you just can’t seem to stay off US discussion boards. Is that because you finally looked are your own history and realized the laws that passed that let your rights to be taken had zero effect on homicide? You are a compliant little sheep though, aren’t you subject?

                    • Bluesman1950

                      “…how jealous you are of the US…” ” the laws that passed that let your rights to be taken had zero effect on homicide?”

                      Oh I’m so jealous of the USA!
                      If only we had a homicide rate 5 times as high as it is, like yours.
                      If only we were 68 times more likely to be shot dead, like you.
                      If only we had had 100 children under 12 shot this year to keep up with your rate.
                      If only we had had 10 police officers shot dead this year to match you.
                      If only we could imprison six times as many people as we do, like you.
                      If only we had just elected Donald Trump to be our president!

                      So many reasons to be jealous.

                      • GAU-8

                        and yet you are still here….

                      • Bluesman1950

                        No, I’m over here!

                    • Mike Breen

                      What did you have to say, slave? I can not imagine what it must be like to be property that will be punished for leaving the plantation. Tell me, how does it feel?

                      Our gun laws do work. No matter how much you twist and turn and turn and try make statistics work for you, you are vastly more likely to be murdered than me and usually with a gun.

                      But go on, tell my how firearms restrictions don’t work. It was proven in 1997, right?

                      • GAU-8

                        You certainly get mileage out the single article you plagiarized.

                        Do you and Blue share a room too?

                        You mean that there is no correlation between your gun laws and criminal homicides? There isn’t any proof your laws did anything more than disarm the law abiding.

                        Or how the law doesn’t impact criminals? Your own Government admits there might be more than 2 million illegal guns on the streets.

                      • Mike Breen

                        With rare exceptions, why are our criminals not using guns? Oh I know, they are afraid of the law.

                      • GAU-8

                        LOL. You believe that. But why is your violent crime rate higher?

                      • Mike Breen

                        It’s not higher. Are you completely incapable of learning anything?

                      • GAU-8

                        But it is.

                      • Mike Breen

                        It’s not. For reasons that have been carefully explained to you. You are like jarhead, no mattter the evidence presented, you just say “not true”.

                      • GAU-8

                        Presented and documented to Blueballs. You like reading our exchanges, have at it.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I saw your discussion. He is right, you are wrong.

                      • Mike Breen

                        It’s not higher, and the use of guns is virtually unheard of. Blues clearly wasted a portion of his life on you.

                      • GAU-8

                        Unfortunately your home office disagrees. It’s higher.

                      • Mike Breen

                        And you are dishonest and stupid. You know why the headline figure is misleading, you still continue to use it to mislead. Honesty and integrity are alien to you.

                      • GAU-8

                        You mean blue bell’s failure to reconcile reality reported versus his implied reality?

                      • Mike Breen

                        He didn’t fail, you did. You fail to understand because you don’t like the result. You fail because you are dishonest and lack integrity, like jarhead.

                      • GAU-8

                        No correlation. But feel free to prove otherwise. The data is straight from your own Government. I know they under report crime, but are you saying you don’t trust them for other reasons too?

                      • Mike Breen

                        You are stupid and dishonest and not worth talking to.

                      • GAU-8

                        I’m pretty sure assault with wounding, grievous bodily harm; rape are not petty. Of course Blue also ignores that in the US aggravated assault includes acts of threatening and menacing and no physical contact has to even occur.

                    • Mike Breen

                      By the way, despite your brainwashing that leads you to believe you are free and we are all jealous, neither is true. You are not free, you are owned. Jealousy? No, anger. As somebody who was always pretty neutral towards the USA, now I would be quite happy if a tactical nuclear weapon went off above the White House.

                      How dare you come over here and demand that you tax our citizens in return for allowing us to continue to use the US banking system! You seem quite determined to have the entire world hate you. Your arrogance and hypocrisy is sickening. Jealous? No, very HAPPY at not being associated with THAT country. Try and find an American outside of the USA that is still waving his stars and stripes? No, they are embarrassed and frightened, frightened by their own country.

                      Go to YouTube and search “FATCA and the Netherlands”. HOW FECKING DARE YOU!!!!!

                      • GAU-8

                        Whine to your Government.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I have complained to my government about them assisting the USA with their appalling abuse of it’s own people. Yes, that’s me trying to protect you. In the meantime, all you do is hang around here doing NOTHING about your enslavement while insisting, despite a mountain of credible evidence, that you are not slaves and |I lie. You pathetic excuse for a man.

                        FATCA was reportedly enacted for the purpose of detecting the non-U.S. financial accounts of U.S. domestic taxpayers rather than to identify non-resident U.S. citizens and enforce collections.[4] There might be thousands of resident U.S. citizens with non-U.S. assets, such as astute investors, dual citizens, or legal immigrants.[5] FATCA was enacted with the purpose of having non-U.S. financial institutions identify approximately 8.7 million U.S. citizens[6] believed to reside outside of the United States and those persons believed to be U.S. persons for tax purposes.[7][8] FATCA will also be used to help identify non-U.S. person family members and business partners who share accounts with U.S. persons. Another benefit of FATCA is that U.S.-person signatories of accounts will be identified. This feature allows the reporting of the assets of non-U.S. corporations, volunteer organizations, and any other non-U.S. entity where a U.S.-person can be identified.
                        FATCA is used to locate U.S. citizens (usually non-U.S. residents but also U.S. residents) and “U.S. persons for tax purposes” and to collect and store information including total asset value and social security number. The law is used to detect assets, rather than income. The law does not include a provision imposing any tax. In the law, financial institutions would report the information they gather to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS). As implemented by the intergovernmental agreements (IGAs) (discussed below) with many countries, each financial institution will send the U.S.-person’s data to the local government first. For example, according to Ukraine’s IGA, the U.S.-person data will be sent to U.S. via the Ukrainian government. Alternatively, in a non-IGA country, such as North Korea, only the North Korean bank will store the U.S.-person data and will send it directly to the IRS.
                        FATCA is used by government personnel to detect indicia of U.S. persons and their assets and to enable cross-checking where assets have been self-reported by individuals. FATCA data is used to crosscheck a U.S. person’s self-reported data at the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FINCEN). U.S. persons, regardless of residence location and regardless of dual citizenships, are required to have self-reported their non-U.S. assets to FINCEN on an annual basis.[9] According to qualification criteria, individuals are also required to report this information on IRS information-reporting form 8938. FATCA will allow detection of persons who have not self-reported, enabling collection of large penalties.[9] FATCA allows government personnel to locate U.S. persons not living in the United States, so as to assess U.S. tax or penalties.

                      • GAU-8

                        FATCA doesn’t Affect the US PERSON

                      • Mike Breen

                        FATCA doesn’t effect the US person? Given that FATCA is US law foisted on the world with the express aim of hunting down US persons, would you care to explain?

                      • GAU-8

                        It requires financial institutions to report, last I saw people aren’t institutions.

                      • Mike Breen

                        The law requires financial institutions to report PEOPLE. It requires those institutions to forensically examine their client base and hunt out any person displaying “US indicia” and to report that person back to their masters. How does it feel to be a slave? How stupid could a person be to suggest this is not a problem for the “US person”? Ah, as stupid as you.

                      • GAU-8

                        It only affects the institution, what does the IRS do with the data?

                      • Mike Breen

                        The IRS uses the data to track down and punish escaped US tax slaves.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I mean really, how THICK can a man be? The whole aim of the law is to collect data on individuals so the USA can tax them, you claim the law only effects institutions. Honestly, you are dumber than dirt. You and jarhead should move in together.

                      • GAU-8

                        Idiot. We already have to report foreign earned income. That long predates FATCA. This was an idiotic left wing law designed to target high wealth citizens trying to hide money. If you have ever been an ex pat as a US citizen you already know this.

              • GAU-8

                But do tell since you were one of the 94% were you classified as mad, bad or stupid. Afterall, that’s what you said…

                • Bluesman1950

                  Get a grown-up to explain what I wrote to you.

                  • GAU-8

                    And yet you continue to haunt US based discussion boards….I think you and your girlfriends are jealous.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      As long as you lie about the UK, expect to be met with the facts. Silly homophobic jibes are not likely to deter.

                      • GAU-8

                        Please point where I lied…

                      • Bluesman1950

                        The continued lie that UK firearms laws do not make us any safer than Americans. Being 68 times less likely to be murdered with a firearms and 5 times less likely to be murdered at all is, in my view, safer.

                      • GAU-8

                        Reading comprehension is a big issue with you isn’t it? Go back and have someone explain what I actually wrote to you.

                        That daily fraction homicide rate difference is 0.0000001.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Very interesting. Is that due to the fact that you have 5 times as many homicides as us? What would it be for the UK O great statistician?

                  • GAU-8

                    Yes, we have rights…inalienable, they pre-date the founding of the nation and are not dependent on Government. I know that’s hard for a subject to grasp.

                    But focus on the 0.0000001 fraction difference in daily homicide likelihood.

                    Focus on calling us liars, the truth is there is no correlation between your gun control enactments and homicide rates. You started the 20th century lower than where you left off.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      “Yes, we have rights…inalienable”
                      Indeed. You have the rights that you have been granted by the Constitution and subsequent amendments. Only those.
                      In the UK we have the right to do anything unless specifically forbidden by law.
                      You have to ask “Do I have the right to do this?” We ask, “Does anyone have the right to stop me?”

                      “But focus on the 0.0000001 fraction difference in daily homicide likelihood”
                      That does sound much more comforting than, “Americans have 5 times the chance of Britons of being murdered. Keep focussing on that, it may make you feel better.

                      “Focus on calling us liars, the truth is there is no correlation between your gun control enactments and homicide rates. ”
                      We have hardly any guns and hardly any firearms homicides. You have widespread ownership of guns and a massive firearms death toll. No connection obviously!

                      “You started the 20th century lower than where you left off. ”
                      And strangely enough, so did the USA!
                      If you think, however, that the homicide rate as recorded in 1900 is comparable to that in 2000 you have to overlook an awful lot of factors of, laws police activity, recording practices, public perception of what to report, forensic medical skills and abilities etc. etc. Still, comparing apples with oranges seems to be one of your favourite games.

                      • GAU-8

                        Fail. You obviously do not understand our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Try reading them, they are on line.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        And you obviously don’t understand our constitution. We have an absolute right to do anything not restricted by law. We are not limited to what someone has written down.

                        How is the right to life going in the USA?

                      • GAU-8

                        Ummmmm….who brought the slaves? Along with indentured servants (slaves) from Germany and Ireland? The British.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Who still keeps them today?

                      • GAU-8

                        Muslims in the middle east.

                      • GAU-8

                        Again, try reading the Bill of Rights… focus on the preamble and 9th and 10th amendments, you are embarrassing yourself. The bill of rights are limitations on the behavior of government not the people.

                      • GAU-8

                        If the Government can take it away by simple legislature it’s not a right.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        And if it’s not in your Constitution it’s not a right? How restricted you are.

                      • GAU-8

                        You still have zero comprehension, I guess out comes from being a subject all your life. The Government is given limited powers by the people. The bill of rights are restrictions on government. Amazing concept. Unlike you who are begrudgingly granted “rights” by Government.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So you still don’t understand our constitution.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We are granted no rights by anybody. We have the right to do anything not forbidden by law. Does your government pass no laws?

                      • GAU-8

                        Your rights can be removed by law? Guess what? Then they are not rights.

                      • GAU-8

                        English Bill of Rights 1688, looks like it grants you some rights… I see why you are confused about our Bill of Rights, which restricts Government not the people.

                      • GAU-8

                        You don’t even know where your rights come from? Time to do some history homework.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Try this. Our rights have been subject to definition by various Acts, but they do not rely on some written constitution.
                        https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution

                        I know something as subtle as an unwritten constitution is difficult for most Americans to understand but do try. Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights and the Human Rights Act all reflect our rights to one degree or another, but are not their original source.

                      • GAU-8

                        If they are products of government they can be taken away. Acts don’t write themselves.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “If they are products of government they can be taken away. Acts don’t write themselves.”
                        So your constitution and Amendments appeared by magic?

                      • GAU-8

                        They don’t grant rights. You are especially stupid today. Both define what Government can and can’t due. Neither “grant” rights, because our rights are unalienable and innate, not the result of any paper construct.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “They don’t grant rights. You are especially stupid today. Both define what Government can and can’t due (sic). Neither “grant” rights, because our rights are unalienable and innate, not the result of any paper construct.”

                        So why was the ‘unalienable and innate’ right not to be enslaved not recognised until 1865. Were Americans too stupid to recognise it? Why does that ‘unalienable and innate’ still not apply to prisoners enslaved as punishment for crime?

                        Surely if your rights are ‘unalienable and innate’ why did some of them not apparently exist until they were formulated in a “paper construct”?

                      • GAU-8

                        Why did you engage in slave trade?

                        You even created the Royal African Company to regulate it.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We abolished slavery completely in 1807. Over 200 years later and the USA still hasn’t completely abolished it.

                      • GAU-8

                        1833, UK slavery abolition act.

                        Hard labor for convicted felons? Meh.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        It’s still slavery and still legal, according to the 13th Amendment.

                      • GAU-8

                        Seriously that’s all you have?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        The fact that slavery is still legal in the USA? One of the things that’s wrong with your country certainly.

                      • GAU-8

                        Well then I don’t have to worry about you coming here then. Where do you go to escape British food?

                      • Bluesman1950
                      • Mike Breen

                        I’m really looking forward to British food next Sunday. Sunday lunch in the pub, fab. Of course, you would have no idea really. That’s what happens when you work on out dated stereotypes. By the way, did you know the British have among the best teeth in the world? Not big on US style fakery of course.

                      • GAU-8

                        Confused again Mikey? Your girlfriend Blue said teeth. Please tell me you aren’t this stupid in reality.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Mmmmm….roast beef….Did you know the UK has more Michelin stars than France?

                      • GAU-8

                        One word, haggis. How many serve solely traditional English dishes.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Haggis?! Mate, the UK is a paradise of food diversity. Your idiotic insults belong in a play ground. Chances are you are FAT!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Your girlfriend Blue said teeth.”
                        Oh no, the implications of homosexuality again! How devastating!

                      • GAU-8

                        I just love how you two read each other’s mail. You are so cute together. What happened to David? Is he off on another atheist tirade?

                      • jarhead1982

                        WTF is the bimbo cackling about?

                      • Mike Breen

                        I see you are on drugs again today, jarhead. Spamming away.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Is coffee a drug…nope, your SOL on that as well, when are you ever going to shock the world and tell the truth pedo?

                      • Mike Breen

                        Perhaps you are not on drugs, but there is a pattern where your online behaviour changes, and not for the better, Such as when you did your 8 hours straight of cutting and pasting every 20 seconds, and began again as soon as you woke up. That’s not normal behaviour at all as is most of your behaviour, but I can accept that you don’t need drugs to be a complete and utter madman.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Yet here you are spamming everyone yet again for hours on end, as we have come to understand just how severely damaged your one original brain cell is from the goat std syphillis you contracted from servicing goat raping DAESH terrorists, such an incompetent troll you are

                      • Mike Breen

                        No jarhead, it was YOU who spammed the boards for 8 hours straight at a rate of a post every 30 seconds, and then began again when you woke. Yet again, you just posted lies to a man who knows you are lying and you know it. You need supervised internet access.

                      • jarhead1982

                        And here the liar starts spamming again like the mentally ill sociopathic pervert it is

                      • Mike Breen

                        You really should have supervised internet access.

                      • jarhead1982

                        You should make the world a safer place and commit suicide

                      • GAU-8

                        What was it? 1928 when you gave women the right to vote.
                        Then all way out to 1981 before you let commonwealth citizens vote? Heck it was 1832 before you let middle class vote.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Just like you!

                      • GAU-8

                        Really? except we had women voting long before that. We never denied middle class a voice. and we were never called subjects after our independence.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        I know, if you call yourselves citizens it sounds so much better than prisoners or victims doesn’t it.

                      • Mike Breen

                        As I have repeatedly told him, he can call me a subject or call me Allice, but I’m free to leave and be left alone. He is not. So which one of us is free?

                        If you want some fun reading that explains how it is impossible for an American to leave the plantation and not be punished for doing so, google “How To Live Outside The United States In An FBAR And FATCA World” by Lawyer John Richardson.

                        There is a good reason for the exponential increase in US renunciations, even though the USA has reacted to the increase by making it harder and more expensive to renounce.

                      • GAU-8

                        Prisoner of what? Victim of what? Violent crimes? Britons have higher rates. (Let me just say I’ll ignore your fantasy diatribe response on that now and save you the time)

                      • Mike Breen

                        No, we don’t have higher rates of violent crime. Continuing to claim we have higher violent crime is just dishonest, you know better. What’s it like being property and unable to freely leave your open prison?

                      • GAU-8

                        Except according to ons.gov.uk your violent crime rate is 325 (rape, assault and homicide) vs. 273 in the US (FBI UCR), That’s almost 20% cupcake.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Yup, yet we don’t have higher violent crime, slave.

                      • GAU-8

                        Well you and your imaginary friends enjoy that fantasy. Rotherham ring a bell?

                      • Mike Breen

                        Wow, you found a crime! Well done.

                      • GAU-8

                        Actually at least 1,400 of them. If we look at the news it may be up to 1,000,000 across the country.

                        Talk about taking under reporting to the next level…………….

                      • Mike Breen

                        Yet I don’t need a gun to walk around here. How come you do?

                      • GAU-8
                      • jarhead1982

                        Post video, location of your proof that you don’t otherwise you’re proven just another common liar

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Rotherham ring a bell?”
                        Sexual abuse is far from restricted to the UK.

                        The John Jay report indicated that some 11,000 allegations had been made against 4,392 priests in the USA.
                        http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Nature-and-Scope-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-and-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf

                        1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys in the USA is a victim of child sexual abuse;
                        https://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics

                        Rape is the least comparable class of crime across nations due to variations in definitions, laws and preparedness to report

                        The FBI counted 85,593 in 2010. The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) counted 188,380 victims of rape and sexual assault in 2010. However The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, counted nearly 1.3 million incidents that same year.
                        http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/

                        As to assaults, keep on comparing our minor assaults with your Aggravated Assaults. It helps to distract from your homicide rate over 5 times greater than ours!

                      • GAU-8

                        http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

                        “No-one knows the true scale of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham over the years. Our conservative estimate is that approximately 1,400 children were sexually exploited over the full inquiry period, from 1997 to 2013.”

                        Revealing details of the inquiry’s findings, Prof Jay said: “It is hard to describe the appalling nature of the abuse that child victims suffered.”

                        The inquiry team found examples of “children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone”.

                        District Commander for Rotherham, Ch Supt Jason Harwin said: “Firstly I’d like to start by offering an unreserved apology to the victims of child sexual exploitation who did not receive the level of service they should be able to expect from their local police force.

                        “We fully acknowledge our previous failings.”

                        The report found: “Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought as racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.”

                        http://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

                        Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that’s roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour.

                        These figures include assaults by penetration and attempts.

                        Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year
                        1 in 5 women aged 16 – 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16

                        http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2016/august/easy-meat-britains-muslim-rape-gang-cover-up

                        Some scandals are so massive that they’re simply hard to believe. As many as one million white English children may have been the victims of Muslim rape gangs, better known as grooming gangs, in towns up and down Great Britain.

                        Policy analyst George Igler says, “When you encounter an issue that is just so unbelievable, just so outside your frame of reference and understanding, the immediate human reaction is just one to not believe it at all.”

                        Perhaps even harder to believe is that while there have been prosecutions, the British government has still not stopped this criminal activity.

                        The said authorities often make it sound like it was the girl’s fault, or her parents’ fault, “because you don’t have control of your child.”

                        Igler says, “If you are a young English girl, particularly between the ages of nine and 14, and you find yourself subject to the perversions of Muslim men, you effectively exist in a country where the forces of law and order don’t exist at all.”

                        Really? We can play the post a link game all day….but try something relevant.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You brought up Rotherham in a discussion about firearms. Try something relevant.

                      • jarhead1982

                        1,425.26 VCR per 100k per home Offuce uk

                        Vs

                        383.6 VCR per 100k per FBI UCR

                        That’s near 5 times higher violent crime rate per your government and since you infer your govt is God you can’t claim they are lying

                      • Mike Breen

                        No, they are telling the truth. It’s what they classify as “violent” that makes the difference, not that there is more violent crime. You know that. But then you have no interest in the casual reader knowing the truth.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I walk at any time of the day or night, I don’t need a gun. One of your own, the very funny Bill Bryson, said that murder was a possibility if you walk the Appalachian trail. Because it’s America.

                      • GAU-8

                        I walk too. And have walked with impunity in south chicago, DC, LA and Harlem NYC. What’s your point? (None of which recognize out of state carry). You still don’t understand rights; as evidenced by your propensity to vote them away

                      • Mike Breen

                        You don’t understand that you are a slave in the biggest open prison on the planet.

                      • GAU-8

                        Still have your panties in a bunch over your Government’s actions?

                        The tax free earnings for US citizen living abroad is $95,000. And there is a foreign housing exclusion.

                        So why are your panties in a bunch?

                        All I have to do is file taxes

                      • Mike Breen

                        It’s not me who has become the property of a government, it’s you. If all you had to do was file taxes (in itself, not simple) then you would not be seeing an exponentially increasing renunciations.

                        “”How To Live Outside The United States In An FBAR And FATCA World””

                        By John Richardson, Lawyer. Google it and then you might look like less of a fool when you suggest it’s just a little form filling.

                        I’m not even joking when I say the very thought of being you makes me feel sick. You are owned, you are property, and if you try and leave, the USA will hunt you down and will punish you for leaving the plantation.

                      • jarhead1982

                        The Brit tax slave beeeoitch is still whining eh, and here we are all out of cheese an mamprin to ease its butt hurt and bleeding mangina

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”So far it appears that it would be prudent for a U.S. citizen abroad to NOT marry, not have an income, not create businesses or engage in self-employment.””

                        “It is no surprise that “U.S. citizenship” is the only citizenship in the world that is becoming grounds for divorce.”

                        “Principle 1: The “Bible (tax code) of the Homelander” hates anything that is foreign. In fact, if the word “Foreign” appears in the “Bible”, the word “penalty” (generally starting at $10,000) is sure to follow.”

                        “All U.S. citizens, regardless of where they live in the world, are subject to exactly the same provisions of the Internal Revenue Code. At first blush you might think this is fair. No. The problem is that the U.S. tax code imposes punitive taxes and reporting requirements on “all things foreign to the U.S.”. As a U.S. citizen abroad, your life is completely “foreign to the U.S.”. Therefore, your life will be subject to punitive taxes and reporting requirements. ”

                        John Richardson, Lawyer.

                        Google “How To Live Outside The United States In An FBAR And FATCA World”

                        Why do you keep going on about my governments actions? I left the UK, as I can because I’m a free man. You cannot leave the USA, because you are property. That is due to the actions of YOUR government. My government merely agreed to help your masters keep track of you, so you can be punished for leaving.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Funny how so few want to leave, other than mostly criminals and pedophiles like you

                      • Mike Breen

                        The one’s renouncing are not leaving, you stupid little slave.

                      • jarhead1982

                        More unsubstantiated lies from a regressivekuntfairy brit tax slave

                      • GAU-8

                        Lol, you have your panties in a bunch over your own Government. Whine to them. You are getting really boring.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I do have my panties in a bunch over them helping enslave you. Pity you don’t have enough self respect to care about living in the biggest open prison on the planet.

                      • GAU-8

                        You seem to ignore reality a lot.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Says the man living in a fantasy land where the Brits live in a crime and violence filled Island and GUA-G, funniest of all, is free!!!! LOL!

                      • GAU-8

                        You think the US is violence filled. LOL. Your like a typical Liberal, you believe 10 cities are the “US”. We have 400,000,000 square miles of land. I know that’s incomprehensible to a Brit with 1/5 the population sitting on just 90,000 square miles. My state is 60% bigger than the UK.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I’m not tied to the UK any more than you are tied to your town. I live in a world where I can go where I like….UNLIKE YOU, SLAVE.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Yet you refuse to leave, hence you are clearly a slave especially as required medical care taxes are slavery per your claims

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “My state is 60% bigger than the UK.”
                        Yes, the USA is very big with lots of people. We do understand that. The size of your state is really impressive! Nonetheless, national statistics take account of the entire nation. Leaving out the bits that make you look bad is not very good statistical practice.

                        Still, if your maths are correct, you live in Montana, the only state close to 60% larger than the UK. Your population is 1,024,000, Much less than Sussex where I live.
                        Your biggest city is Billings, with around 110,00 people and you have no other town over 100,000 people. The white percentage of your population is about the same as the UK

                        “You think the US is violence filled. LOL.”

                        You had 36 murders in 2015, 18 of them by firearm.
                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-20

                        Your murder rate is 3.5/100k over 3.5 times ours.
                        Your firearms murder rate is 46 times ours.
                        Your police shot dead 4 people last year, more than in the entire UK and at 72 times the rate shot by UK police.

                        Your sparsely-populated rural state sounds pretty “violence filled” to me by comparison with the UK. Good job you don’t live in one of those nasty cities!

                      • jarhead1982

                        1,425.26 violent crime per 100k in uk per home office

                        383.6 violent crime per 100k in US per FBI UCR

                        Yep you disarmed puxxies sure are violent

                      • Mike Breen

                        Had it not been for me, you had no Idea that you would be punished for leaving the country and now you know, you still duck that reality. Go on, tell me again how I would need to be earning more that $100,000 a year for it to be an issue and how I just have a little form to fill in once a year. Now THAT is living in a fantasy land.

                      • GAU-8

                        Sorry if four function math is tough for you, not really all that hard.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Sorry that you are a slave.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Not hard at all. What your country is doing is immoral and it’s easy to understand that. I LOVE the way you tell me that people should be able to pick a nationality, when the USA IMPOSES it’s nationality on people and makes it the most expensive one on earth to get rid of!

                        Renunciations in 2008 = 100.

                        Renunciations in 2016 = 1158 in the FIRST QUARTER!

                      • jarhead1982

                        Wow a UK pedophile wanted for crimes in the US has audacity to claim moral superiority how again…

                      • GAU-8

                        Not able … have to.

                        Tell me, if you never got a ssn how would the IRS know you existed?

                        If you were foriegn born how would the US know you existed?

                      • jarhead1982

                        You’re the pervert living in the fantasy that anyone believes anything you claim or say oh pathological lying pedophile

                      • jarhead1982

                        He hates American rights, won’t take his punishment due, and magically feels entitled to dictate his irrelevent pussyfication views upon others who never solicited his wrecktum retentive bs to begin with, what a fool

                      • jarhead1982

                        Still no proof of the 13th amendment being repealed eh pedo

                      • Mike Breen

                        What happened to your right to be a free man? What did you do with that?

                      • GAU-8

                        Great. They can google US tax law.

                        Hint: Don’t be us US Citizen or turn in your green card when you leave. Just like you London Mayor….he maintained dual citizenship (A passport – YOU NEED AN SSN FOR ONE, hence you fall under US law for taxation purpose).

                        Not really a hard concept….sorry people got their “d*cks” in a ringer for playing both sides of the fence, but ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

                        Again, $100,000 exclusion. Everybody can come up with a few sob stories. But they are just that stories, often with a hidden page #2 the story teller prefers not to tell less they ruin the tear jerk reaction they are looking for.

                        Like your London Mayor….his accountant was an idiot…he should have renounced his US citizenship a full year before the sale of his home. Now he pays 40% on his nearly $1 million dollar profit. Tell him thanks from the US by the way.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Why would a person who was born in the Netherlands and who is now on his Dutch pension even THINK about US tax law? Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but failure of the USA to do anything at all about telling millions all over the world that the USA demanded money from them no matter that they were paid up residents and citizens of other countries is entirely understandable and forgivable? It might surprise you, but millions of resident citizens of other countries who were born there are not sitting around wondering if they should be paying taxes to the USA.

                        Tell me, how many US citizens of foreign decent in the USA sit around wondering if the country they left, or in some cases have never even been to, is coming looking for taxes? I’ll tell you, absolutely none with the possible exception of the citizens of the filthy and corrupt African dictatorship of Eritrea. Those are the sort of morals you need to run a tax code like the USA.

                      • GAU-8

                        US persons. Tough concept, you always seem to leave that part out. Like your London mayor….dual citizenship….US passport….US SSN….tell me in your little stories how many people paid US taxes that were not US persons, or retained dual citizenship…..you say renouncing US citizenship is up….4579 out of 318,000,000. How many of them were high income individuals like Zuckerberg. You really should whine to someone who cares, I actually don’t believe in dual citizenship…at 18 or 21 you should have to pick.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Not a tough concept at all. You IMPOSE US person status on people with little to no connections to the USA and you them impose a punitive and immoral tax code on those people that makes normal life impossible outside of the USA.

                        Yes, renunciations are up, rising exponentially year on year from a couple of hundred to many thousands per year. Incidentally, you force them out of their citizenship with your immoral tax code in breach of both their constitutional and human rights. But I’m sure that does not bother you at all as you seem to have the same good judgement and decency as your government, none at all.

                        People don’t get the chance to “pick” US citizenship, you IMPOSE it on them. And if you believe they have a right to choose, why do you punish those who renounce and make it the most expensive and difficult renunciation on the planet?

                      • GAU-8

                        Link? Here’s one 4,279 for 2015. That’s 0.00135%.

                        http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2016/02/number-of-americans-renouncing-their-us-citizenship-hits-all-time-high-up-25-from-2014-560-from-bush.html

                        the number of published expatriates for the quarter was 1,058, bringing the total number of published expatriates in 2015 to 4,279. The total for the year breaks last year’s record number of 3,415 published expatriates. The number of expatriates for 2015 is a 25% increase over 2014 and a 42% increase over 2013 (2,999).

                      • Mike Breen

                        Firstly, the numbers are under reported. As to why, the are several theories but many claim their names never appeared on the list of shame. But playing numbers is a silly game, why don’t we ask why people protected by the constitution and human rights law from being forced to give up citizenship are being compelled to, in their thousands. Oh, and did you check out the numbers for 2016 yet? I bet you a dollar and give you 10,000 to 1 odds that it is higher yet again. Years waiting list at the embassy in Canada.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Explain again how they are being forced to do anything pedo piker Brit tax slave

                      • jarhead1982

                        Isn’t it amazing how some ignorant pervert in the UK magically infers he was elected our nanny and we should give a schiite about his gas lighting bs and lies, psychotic truly Mukey is, breed he did not

                      • jarhead1982

                        That’s fkkng hilarious an immoral UK anti gun pervert wailing about morality when he insists it is more moral that the disarmed victims in the UK be beaten or killed rather than explaining how their attacker got three bullets in them

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”Again, $100,000 exclusion.””

                        Again…..Although I realise That I am dealing with a very stupid slave that does not understand how he is prevented from leaving the plantation, we’ll try again…

                        “”1. Thou shalt NOT have a bank or brokerage account outside the United States. If you do so, it must be reported to U.S. Financial Crimes on an annual basis. Failure to disclose is “Form Crime”. You may be fined an amount that is more than 300% of the value of the account.

                        2. Thou shalt NOT marry an “alien”. If you do so, you will have difficulty leaving your estate to him or her. Better to return to the Homeland to search for a suitable spouse.

                        3. Thou shalt ensure that your “alien” spouse agrees to be a U.S. taxpayer. Failure to do so, will result in your having the punitive filing status of “married filing separately”. This will guarantee greater exposure to the Alternative Minimum Tax, the new 3.8% Obamacare surtax, higher tax brackets and lower thresholds for reporting (including FATCA Form 8938) requirements.

                        4. Thou shalt NOT believe that the sale of your principal residence is a “tax free capital gain”. In fact, the sale of your principal residence will trigger a 23.8% capital gain which means that your house cannot be used as a retirement investment.

                        5. Thou shalt NOT buy non-U.S. mutual funds. If you do, you will have your gains confiscated in the form of an “Excess Distribution” Tax. Buy American. Buy U.S. mutual funds.

                        6. Thou shalt buy ONLY “term insurance”. Any other form of “insurance that has cash value” will be treated as a sacred instrument of tax evasion. Furthermore, if you purchase a “foreign insurance policy” thou shalt pay a special excise tax.

                        7. Thou shalt NOT buy or participate in an RESP, RDSP, employer pension plan, or any other kind of retirement planning vehicle which will be considered to be a TAXABLE “Foreign Trust” (with all the attendant penalty laden reporting requirements).

                        8. Thou shalt neither be self-employed NOR carry on business through a non-U.S. (AKA “Foreign”) corporation. If you do, punitive taxes, deemed income, and expensive reporting requirements will descend on you.

                        9. Thou shalt NOT relinquish U.S. citizenship. In the event that you do, you may be subjected to an “Exit Tax” which applies to your “non-U.S.” pension, “non-U.S.” assets, and assets that accumulated after you ceased to live in the United States. In addition, there are certain “Form People” who claim that you may be banished from the Homeland forever.

                        10. Thou shalt file, every year, file the following forms with the IRS: 1040 and all required schedules, FBAR, FATCA, 8938, 8965, 3520, 3520A, 709 (up to a maximum of up to about 45 forms). Understand that this will cost you thousands of dollars.
                        And this ladies and gentlemen, is why your problem is NOT “coming into U.S. tax compliance”. Your problem is “living as a tax compliant U.S. citizen abroad”. It really can’t be done (if you want any kind of life).

                        What does all of this mean practically?
                        Punitive Taxation – Think PFIC and Foreign Investments
                        U.S. citizens abroad also are subjected to the most punitive aspects of both the U.S. tax system and the tax system of their country of residence. In other words, it is NOT possible for them to get a “tax break”.

                        Examples include:
                        • double taxation (example Obamacare 3.8% surtax)
                        • tax payable to the U.S. that is not payable in Canada (sale of principal residence or TFSA)
                        • deemed income that you haven’t received (Avoid Canadian controlled private corporations)
                        • payment of taxes in Canada that are not available as tax credits in the U.S (think HST)
                        • taxation of currency exchange rate based gains””

                        “”he maintained dual citizenship (A passport – YOU NEED AN SSN FOR ONE, hence you fall under US law for taxation purpose).””
                        Millions are now being contacted by their banks and told THEY MUST GET a US social security number. Millions are being told that if they wish to visit the USA, they MUST GET a US passport.
                        Google “FATCA and the Netherlands” to find examples of frozen bank accounts, frozen because this retired mans mother was born in the USA. He MUST get a US social security number so the bank can report his presence to the satisfaction of the IRS, a Dutch born man with no other connection to the USA who is now having his retirement funds robbed by your disgusting parasite of a country.

                      • GAU-8

                        Really, nice fantasy……you should write fiction subject.

                      • Mike Breen

                        YouTube “FATCA and the Netherlands”. The rest was written by John Richardson, tax lawyer and FATCA expert in Canada. Denying easily confirmed truths with accusations of lies and fantasy seems to be a gun nut special.

                      • GAU-8

                        I’m not your Google,

                      • Mike Breen

                        No, you’re just an ignorant slave. I love the way you deny the problem because there is a $100,000 FEIE, deny all that I posted (written by a FATCA expert lawyer) as fantasy, but then find it most amusing that Boris Johnson got hit with a tax bill on the sale of his home. Say, how come the FEIE didn’t cover that? Get your immoral thieving hands out of our countries.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Says the proven pathological liar too stupid to post proof of the repeal of the 13th amendment

                      • jarhead1982

                        Blah blah bleeet bleeet

                      • jarhead1982

                        The fool thinks constantly spamming its gas lighting lies magically makes its claims true, what a fool

                      • Mike Breen

                        Spamming? Like your 8 hour session of 3 posts per minute followed by another couple of hours doing the same thing in the morning? You have no idea what truth is and can’t distinguish between fantasy and reality. You are all that is wrong with socialism.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Repeating your lies is spamming oh puddle of pestilent slime.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Don’t talk to me about rights, SLAVE! I am not even kidding, or trying to score points when I say that it makes me physically sick to imagine being you, owned.

                      • GAU-8

                        Yet 44,000,000 immigrant are legally here, 5,000,000 from the EU….even your London mayor retained dual citizenship….vs. 4579 renounced. So owned, millions want to move here.

                      • Mike Breen

                        It’s not a case of retaining citizenship, it’s a case of it just being their.

                        Most people don’t go out of their way to remove a citizenship, as a citizenship is benign and harmless. The exceptions are US and Eritrean, the first being more toxic than the last.

                        A couple of hundred renounced in the 90’s per years, that is now around 4000 in the first quarter of this year. I’m glad you don’t see a problem with beating your dog as their are [plenty more in the pound.

                        It’s not the numbers, it’s the trend. Yes you have many people who would like to live in the USA, but the smart ones are now thinking twice. The dross will still be lining up.

                      • GAU-8

                        4.279 a year dipstick. Do try to read.

                      • Mike Breen

                        No no, it’s won’t be 4279 this year just as it was not last year. It will be higher again. The numbers are under reported. Check out the Isaac Brock society and they will explain all. While you are there, you might also tell them that their problems are a fantasy. But then I should give up. I’m talking to a slave that is defending the methods used to keep him enslaved. Not only a slave, but a stupid one.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Still waiting for you to prove the 13th amendment was repealed just on your day so pedo piker

                      • GAU-8

                        I’ll take the US Government numbers.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Yeah horrible how the US chapter of NAMBLA international has now left and is moving to the UK as Mukey is clearly upset with the increased competition for paedophile victims

                      • Mike Breen

                        Tell me again how the US tax code is no problem because there’s a $100,000 FEIE, and then tell me again how funny it is that Boris Johnson got hit with a $400,000 bill for US taxes on the sale of his London home? Not much consistency in your arguments, is there!?

                      • jarhead1982

                        Spewing your irrelevent bs like the desperate piker you are we see

                      • GAU-8

                        900,000 capital gains profit. I am sorry math is hard and you only like to tell 1/2 the story.

                      • jarhead1982

                        We will lecture you on inherent arights anytime you post your filth and lies pedo

                      • jarhead1982

                        Again we see no proof of the U.K. pedophaggots claims hence its another lie typikal

                      • Mike Breen

                        Right, you need proof I don’t walk around without a gun? You were not so much dropped on your head as a baby, more likely repeatedly swung against a tree.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Like all its claims, it infers it is god and its words are proof, but alas for the troll, it isnt god, hence it is proven a pathological lying regressivekuntfairy yet again.

                      • Mike Breen

                        You have never proven me a liar and never will. You on the other hand are generally what you accuse others of. Deeply disturbing seeing one of your favourite accusations is of peadophilia.

                      • jarhead1982

                        The govt data and your repeated lies have done so, and that’s all there is to it chump

                      • jarhead1982

                        Home office uk shows 1,425.26 VCR per 100k and you being too illiterate to seperate out what you claim aren’t violent crimes and your belief in government as God means your govt data is valid and true, hence you are 5 times more violent than the US

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Surprising that we manage to kill so few really!

                      • GAU-8

                        Let me help you. No correlation. A concept forever lost on you yet grasped by most high school students

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Perhaps our kid’s birthday parties are just quieter in the ‘violent’ UK!
                        http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/33744655/man-arrested-in-birthday-party-mass-shooting

                        Only 606 under-12’s shot so far this year in the USA. So comforting that there is no correlation with firearms ownership.

                      • GAU-8

                        Unfortunately, I have repeatedly post the numbers….from your own government…you just like to ignore them….I guess like the UK police ignore rape-gangs “grooming” young women

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Unfortunately what you constantly refer to are your Aggravated assaults and our ‘assaults with injury’ and try to pretend that they are the same!

                      • GAU-8

                        I know, in the US you can be charged with aggravated assault without even touching the other person, just a threat can qualify.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        But what is not included is assaults that do not involve the use of a firearm, knife or cutting instrument, or other dangerous weapon and in which the victim did not sustain serious or aggravated injuries are reported as Other Assaults–Simple, Not Aggravated. These data are not included in the aggravated assault statistics.
                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/aggravated-assault
                        Attack without a weapon resulting either in no injury, minor injury (for example, bruises, black eyes, cuts, scratches or swelling) or in undetermined injury requiring less than 2 days of hospitalization. Also includes attempted assault without a weapon
                        With minor injury – An attack without a weapon resulting in such injuries as bruises, black eyes, cuts or in undetermined injury requiring less than 2 days of hospitalization.
                        http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=316

                        In other words, you do not include the vast majority of your assaults, but do include the vast majority of ours and then try to pretend that they are comparable!

                      • GAU-8

                        Since you use definitions to extrapolate data, I’ll just go with the fact you have no idea and just choose the fringes that for your bias.

                        Montana is very safe…except for the cats.

                        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/636dfb89e39e92f34e002f50285eb5c1708a4b2b9ae800257f91e7c037a3075c.jpg

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Indeed. Comparing one thing with another defined completely differently does indeed indicate that you have no idea.

                        So, Montana is very safe, being only 3.5 times more homicidal than the UK, despite having no large ethnic minority and no big towns! What a surprise.

                      • GAU-8

                        Side step the other violent crime differences….4x as likely to be raped or assaulted in the UK. That includes men as victims too…..better be careful.

                        Can we then start excluding justified self defense? You forget that we are allowed that.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “4x as likely to be raped or assaulted in the UK.”
                        Rapes USA 2015 – 102,303.
                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-12
                        Rape England & Wales 2015 29,265
                        http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/2015-07-16

                        102,303 / 5.7 population difference = 17,947
                        29,265 / 17,947 = 1.63

                        Not 4 times, 1.63 times, before taking into account any differences in willingness to report, preparedness of authorities to act etc.
                        Still only a 245% inaccuracy at best!

                        2014 USA
                        Assaults Total 4,411,010
                        Aggravated Assault 1,092,090
                        Simple Assault 3,318,920
                        (BJS) National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).
                        https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv14.pdf

                        2014 England & Wales
                        Violence against the person offences 779,027 ( x 5.7 = 4,440,454 – 1.006 US rate)
                        Violence with injury 374,216
                        Violence without injury 404,277
                        Bear in mind though, that violence with injury in the UK includes attempted murder, intentional destruction of viable unborn child, causing death by dangerous driving/careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs, more serious wounding or other act endangering life (including grievous bodily harm with and without intent), causing death by aggravated vehicle taking and less serious wounding offences

                        In 2015, the estimated number of murders in the USA was 15,696.
                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/murder
                        In the year ending March 2015 the police (E&W) recorded 534 homicides,
                        http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/2015-07-16

                        534 x 5.7 = 3044
                        15696 / 3044 = 5.15. US murder rate over 5 times that of the UK (E&W).

                        “Can we then start excluding justified self defense? You forget that we are allowed that.”
                        Already excluded from your homicide figures.
                        “Justifiable homicide—Certain willful killings must be reported as justifiable or excusable. In the UCR Program, justifiable homicide is defined as and limited to:
                        The killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.
                        The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.
                        Because these killings are determined through law enforcement investigation to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. ”
                        FBI UCR 2015

                        We are also allowed self-defence too.
                        Section 3, Criminal Law Act 1967
                        “A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in the effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders, or of persons unlawfully at large”
                        Common Law (R v Griffiths 1988)
                        Common Law recognises that there may be circumstances in which one person may inflict violence on another, without committing a crime. It recognises as one of these circumstances, the right of a person to protect himself /herself from attack and to act in defence of others and if necessary to inflict violence on another in doing so. If no more force is used than is reasonable to repel the attack, such force is not unlawful. If you have an honestly held belief that you or another, are in imminent danger, then you may use such force as is reasonable and necessary to
                        avert that danger.

                        Section 43 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (use of force in place of residence):
                        ” The effect of subsection (5A) is that householders who use a disproportionate level of force to protect themselves or others in their homes will not automatically be regarded as having acted unlawfully and treated as criminals.”
                        https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/192945/self-defence-circular.pdf

                        So we are possibly at 1.6 times the risk of being raped, not 4 times, although even that level is highly debateable given differences in reporting and recording.
                        We are at 1.006 times the risk of being subjected to violence with injury, including motoring offences in the UK, not 4 times.
                        We are at 20% the risk of being murdered than you.
                        We are at about 1/60th of the risk of being shot by the police than you.
                        We have the right to defend ourselves too, but we don’t need guns to do it.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Is this the man who concluded that I was wrong, Americans are free to leave the country because it’s just a little form and hey, there’s a $100,000 FEIE?

                        Who then follows up his conclusion by gloating at the example of Boris Johnson getting hit with a $400,000 tax bill by the USA on what should have been the tax free sale of his primary home under UK tax law?

                        Blues is running rings around you.

                      • GAU-8

                        And you are an idiot, so good luck with that.

                      • Mike Breen

                        I’m not the one calling the analysis of a top FATCA expert “fantasy” and I am not the one claiming that normal life is perfectly doable outside the USA, while gloating over a perfect example of why normal life is not possible for you outside the USA. Idiot.

                      • GAU-8

                        For 1%. Again, no sympathy from me, crying in tea somewhere else

                      • Mike Breen

                        Oh, it’s 8 million others and their families, and as you don’t intend to leave, you don’t care. It’s their own fault for not living on the plantation, right? It would make me feel physically sick to be you, property.

                      • GAU-8

                        1%. of the 8 million….exclude those overseas as working ex pats (trust me they get taken care of by their companies), those who are US citizens who moved overseas to retire to extreme low cost countries, those who know the law but chose not to turn in their green card, those who saw derived benefit from maintaining active dual citizenship (like your mayor) and you are left with perhaps a fraction of a percent..then take an organization looking for a few anecdotal poster cases…so please be sick, but face reality.

                        And by the way it was our liberal, pro-socialist democrats who rammed FATCA into law, those evil greedy conservatives were and are against it. Expect it to be appealed with the new administration.

                      • Mike Breen

                        A fraction of a percent?! Oh what a load of ignorant rubbish, which is all I should have expected! FATCA and the immoral US tax code effects ALL Americans and all those the USA claims are Americans, if they like it or not. Just because the effects on you cannot be seen and felt right now, YOU are effected by FATCA. You cannot leave, that is a direct effect.
                        The disaster coming to your economy is going to take a while longer.
                        I tell you AGAIN, Boris did not actively seek US citizenship, it is imposed on all those born in the USA and if that is the case, the USA now demands you also have a US passport in order to visit. A US passport is a lot cheaper than renunciation!

                        The vast majority of people “maintaining” US citizenship are doing NO SUCH THING! They simply have not got around to getting rid of it because they saw no good reason to go to the trouble, and now, thanks to the actions of your filthy country, many cannot renounce because they simply cannot afford to!
                        Oh yes, you try and justify on the basis that some of these people might be doing well for themselves. Guess what? IT’S NON OF YOUR FOOCKING BUSINESS!
                        In fact, did you even know that a lot of these people effected did not even have an SS number, let alone a passport! They are getting letters from their banks notifying them of frozen accounts simply because a parents were born in the USA.
                        Go to YouTube and search “FATCA and the Netherlands”. It’s subtitled. Go tell those Dutch pensioners, born in the Netherlands, no US SS number or passport, how it’s their own fault the USA is ruining their pension because they should have known they were US tax payers their entire lives, and it’s their own fault the USA wants their pension funds!
                        You sicken me, slave.
                        You sicken me.

                      • GAU-8

                        Boris had a US passport…so don’t give me your b.s. About not actively seeking. He may not have had a say where he was born but his active use of a US passport was not accident.

                        You mean like Americanoverseas.org

                        “It is estimated that 30,000 Dutch people with American passports plus another 70,000 to 100,000 Dutch people with an American ‘Green card’ are affected.”

                        What does it say? With US passports and green cards (permanent US residence).

                        Again, people who actively sought out America.

                      • Mike Breen

                        You impose citizenship based entirely on your own unique criteria, you insist on US passport possession in order to visit the USA, you then make US renunciation the most difficult and expensive renunciation in the so called free world, and conclude that anybody sitting on US citizenship has actively sought America despite livng their entire tax paying lives in another country. I’ll give you one thing, you’re consistent.

                      • GAU-8

                        If I was born outside the US, and held a foreign passport how would the US Government know I could claim citizenship? It wouldn’t.

                        They hold a US passport for a reason, the rules haven’t changed. FATCA didn’t create taxation,

                        If they don’t want a US passport or US citizenship renounce it. The fact is very few people have a tax bill. They have, unchanged by FATCA, filing requirements.

                        The green card rules are very explicit. If you don’t wish to return to US, surrender your status.

                        You sir, are an idiot.

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”If I was born outside the US, and held a foreign passport how would the US Government know I could claim citizenship? It wouldn’t.””

                        One, many and indeed most American parents registered their children’s birth with the embassy when they were born as they thought they were doing the child a great favour. The child had no choice in the matter, yet you accuse them now of “seeking the US” despite the fact many have never been there.

                        You have had it explained to you in great detail why renouncing is neither easy or cheap and indeed, beyond the reach of many and how the US will make normal life impossible if you try and live with US citizenship, and all this by a top expert in the field.

                        You come back suggesting that they should simply renounce and this is all there own fault for seeking the US.

                        There is an idiot around here, but it’s not me.

                      • GAU-8

                        The child had no choice in the matter….blame their parents. Or don’t parents get to raise their children in your world?

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”They hold a US passport for a reason””

                        Many hold NO PASSPORT and have NO SOCIAL security number! The BANKS are finding the “US indicia” (US parent) and are forcing these people to out themselves to the IRS or face account closure.

                        This was all made very clear on the video from the Netherlands. You can read English, right?

                        How many times do you need to be told this!? You are basing your opinion on the nonsense belief that these people went out of their way to get a US passport, and it’s complete and utter rubbish!

                        Two people on that Dutch video had to go through the complete and utter nonsense of getting a US social security number so they could renounce at great expense and hand the number back.

                        NO PASSPORT INVOLVED!!!

                      • GAU-8

                        Not according to the data. Anybody can pull a few anecdotes.

                      • William The Warlord

                        This issue is totally in your UK minds and not of concern to the vast majority of Americans. People risk their lives every day to come to America and pay vast sums to human smugglers just to get to our borders.Only one in ten thousand renunciates US Citizenship so we simply do not care.President Trump will wipe out all of Obama’s executive orders his first day in office.Then you can go back to whining and moaning over the freedom to own guns and military weapons in America!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Americans abroad are painfully aware that you don’t care about them. Unfortunately, most Americans are unaware of the reasons why they should care. The numbers being forced out of their citizenship may be small, but when you compare the thousands renouncing now compared to a couple of hundred in the 90s, you might wonder why.

                        The fact you have more dogs waiting in the pound today does not justified beating the ones you own now, so spare me the crap about others wishing to come to America

                        Also, a more valid comparison of the numbers renouncing would not be to compare with the US population, but with the overseas population who can afford the most difficult and expensive renunciation in the free world, by far.

                        Americans are now slaves and are living in the biggest open prison on the planet. For that reason alone they should care.

                      • William The Warlord

                        You are so full of crap it is pathetic Mike. How many Americans are “forced out of their citizenship”? What is your source?The BBC!!!!!

                        The only ones destined for slavery are the dregs of the UK. People like you have been so brainwashed that they do not realize they have lost all true freedom.All you can do is parrot the propaganda of your masters,whose hatred towards America is legendary! President Trump will have a special place for people like you!How are you on wall building?

                        Only the ignorant make conclusions about other countries cultures based on statistics.If 2 dozen American criminals lose their Citizenship,it means nothing to the remaining 350 million of us.

                        It is the UK that is in it’s final cultural demise. In two generations everything you believed to be “English” will be subject to Sharia law and the rule of the mob!Your failure to stop the 2011 riots show how rotten to the core your “culture” has become.When average Citizens burn,loot and riot for no valid reason other than the joy of being lawless,you know the cultural end is very near. Your comments on America’s firearms freedom clearly show a subjected and brainwashed mind reacts to freedom!Like most Brits,you seem to fear having to go it alone and make your own decisions instead of being a mere “subject” to the Crown!No wonder you are so sad and confused by America!In America we now have leadership that will make America great again.All you have is a powder keg being filled with hate filled Muslim immigrants who will destroy British culture by out-breeding you alone. Why do you think that today the most popular baby name in the UK is “Muhammed”!???

                        People should know when they are culturally defeated like you!We all see it clearly from here.No wonder you are so full of hate and bigotry towards superior Americans!Who is the slave now?

                      • Mike Breen

                        Who is the slave? You are. You are an ignorant slave as well. Two dozen criminals? No, tens of thousands are now chooing to be free men and women, and renouncing is the only way to do that. All you display is ignorance. How does it feel to be PROPERTY?

                      • William The Warlord

                        You are the one who was born a slave not me Mike.I was born in America and my birthright honors me to own all the terrible weapons of war unlike you. Your paranoia that certain US citizens lose property when they renounce US Citizenship is totally lame and effects only you and a few dozen others. Notice you have no valid source for your paranoia only that you “think” that might happen.It never does Mike. You are trappped in Liberal slavery of the mind and you feel you must reject all free people as slaves like yourself.

                        Perhaps you should call me Sparticus!This “slave” owns his own Saracen and Russian T-34 D,plus enough small arms and ammunition for my own private army.This “slave” owns several corporations,property in a dozen States and Countries.This “slave’ is above the law of the land with absolute diplomatic immunity for life and can travel anywhere in the world including the UK armed as I see fit!
                        This “slave” voted Obama out of office and Crooked Hillary to prison.
                        This “slave” has more wives,women friends,guns and hot cars than any UK Royal!This slave and his colonial forebearers defeated the British Empire both militarily and now culturally!The sun has set on the UK which in 2 generations will be culturally assimilated by Islam!Too bad!!!

                        So what kind of slave are you????I am totally free,who owns you Mike???

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”Your paranoia that certain US citizens lose property when they renounce US Citizenship is totally lame and effects only you and a few dozen others.””

                        You have no idea what you are talking about, just another armed and dangerous gun nut, and a fantasist. Your claims to own property around the world can be safely dismissed by the fact you know nothing about the FATCA.

                        A couple of dozen people are effected? How do you figure that when around 8 million US persons and their families are directly effected and renunciations have increased from a couple of hundred a year to the tens of thousands, despite your masters putting ever more hurdles in the way of doing so?

                        I’m not a slave, a fact that can be witnessed by the fact that I walked out of the country and they left me alone to get on with my life elsewhere.

                        If you arrive here in Belgium, the first thing you will need is a bank account. Presuming you find a bank to have you, the first thing you will need is to sign a form permitting that bank to send all your financial details to the Belgian tax authorities who will in turn supply those details to the IRS.

                        This in spite of the national laws preventing discrimination based nationality or cultural background. Yes, your masters forced us, and the entire world, to ditch such laws, but only for escaped Americans.

                        No other citizen of any other country on the planet faces this where ever they go.

                        That’s because you are PROPERTY that is NOT free to leave and should you attempt to do so, you will be tracked and traced via the worlds financial systems at the behest of your owners in Washington, and then you will be punished via a very special tax and penalty code written especially for those who walk off the plantation.

                        Oh sure, console yourself with the fact that you didn’t want to leave anyway, a happy slave.

                        If you require further details or clarification regarding the completion of your slavery in ‎March 18, 2010 (26 USC § 6038D) do come back to me.

                        If you can stop lying and fantasising for long enough that is.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike your paranoia over the FATCA Act shows you are in need of both mental health care and reading comprehension education. The FATCA act does not make Americans slaves and it only applies to around 1-3% of Americans abroad.Most importantly it was an Obama law that was never properly financed or enforced except on foreign banks!President Trump will remove it within the first 100 days as it was designed to catch money launderers not track government slave “property”!Most Americans do not use foreign banks because they do not need to and most do not speak the foreign languages fluently enough to be comfortable. Anyone emigrating would consult a local lawyer to make Banking arrangements and not try to do it themselves.You are wrong as usual and FATCA is no valid reason to renounce US Citizenship!Keep raving away! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/39cdf8584291b5bcfc1fd60c98c29b8919622fd8b01e2262581be64ca69fc7a0.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        Still failing to understand, still trying to play down your enslavement. FATCA applies to you! You cannot leave.

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”The FATCA act does not make Americans slaves and it only applies to around 1-3% of Americans abroad.””

                        FATCA applies to all “US persons” with financial interests outside of the USA. That is 100 percent of US persons living abroad and a considerable percentage resident in the USA.

                        It’s your tax code that makes you slaves, FATCA really only enforces your slavery.

                        As to those emigrating, why should they need a lawyer to help them bank locally? What will that lawyer do, exactly?

                        You have no idea what you are talking about, you ignorant slave.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Wrong again Mike! You need to read the details not the UK hype about FATCA. It only applies to US Citizens who open exclusively foreign bank accounts. Less than 1% of Americans do so because our American banks have branches all over the world and our credit and debit cards are recognized world wide. This was a recent Obama scam to stop money laundering and to threaten foreign banks. Most Americans are not only not unaffected but could care less.Without enforcement,it is a Paper Tiger that only is important to America haters like yourself Mike!The American tax code is so full of loopholes that 50% of all US Corporations pay NO TAXES at all. The same for the 3 million American millionaires. If you pay any Federal taxes you have a dumb tax lawyer!Why do you think President Trump paid NO TAXES for decades legally while making millions of dollars profit each year. Taxes are only for the little people like you to worry about Mike!Taxation is not slavery!

                        Please do not worry about being enslaved by armed American Citizens,that is just your paranoia! Wake up Mike and live free!

                      • Mike Breen

                        I’m, I’m not wrong, you are.

                        Your wild and unsubstantiated claims that less than 1 percent of US persons abroad have an overseas account is completely and utterly preposterous nonsense caused by either complete and utter stupidity or dishonesty.

                        Tell me, do you think a Belgian company is going to pay your salary in to an American bank? NO. Tell me, do you think you can use an American bank to use the local system of paying and receiving payments, always within the Belgian banking system? NO! Do you think your Belgian pension can be held with a US bank? NO!

                        In fact, off the top of my head, I don’t think there is a US bank in Belgium!

                        Yet again, you are making unsubstantiated guesses and passing them off as fact. You never even left the USA, and guess what? You can’t! You cannot survive without a local bank account, it’s that simple. Your claim that 99 percent are doing just that is yet more fantasy and lies.

                        Why you are wasting your time talking about corporations is beyond me.

                        I don’t need to wake up, I’m wide awake. The one living a fantasy is you. If you arrive in anywhere in Europe and indeed the rest of the world, you will need financial services. Despite your idiotic claims about not needing a local bank, you WILL need a local bank.

                        That bank will make you sign a paper that allows the bank to pass on any and all information about you and your financial activity to the IRS, your OWNERS.

                        You will then be subject to a punitive tax code designed to punish all things foreign to the USA and you will be liable to life destroying fines for as much as a simple mistake where no tax was avoided or evaded.

                        As John Richardson says, where ever the word “foreign” appears in the US tax code, the word “penalty” is sure to follow, usually starting at $10,000. Despite your pathetic claims that US persons abroad are avoiding any problems by using US banks(they CAN’T use a US bank for day to day life in a foreign country, even if there is one) your entire life will be foreign to the USA, and so treated punitively.

                        Don’t worry, I’m wide awake. Despite shaking you vigorously with facts from top tax lawyers, real life examples such as Boris Johnson, you continue to dream on……

                      • William The Warlord

                        All American banks have working relationships with banks in Belgium and everywhere in Europe.Most Americans do not need to open a foreign account because their US ones work fine overseas.Every major bank in Europe has a relationship with an American bank!

                        When I worked in Europe,my employers always gave me the choice of American or Swiss Banks to put my funds into.

                        There never was any legal or financial problem for Americans abroad other than your paranoid fantasies!Credit and debit cards like cash and gold are usable world wide. You do not need a bank account to live overseas.

                        Change your medications while you still can and remember,Taxes are for the little people,just like rules and regulations!There is no punitive tax code for US citizens so we cannot be punished by a tax code that is designed to punish all thing not American!

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”There is no punitive tax code for US citizens so we cannot be punished by a tax code that is designed to punish all thing not American!””

                        You say this despite the information posted by a top tax lawyer and expert on FATCA who says the exact opposite. Have you dismissed his expertise as nonsense as well? Do you have both fingers in your ears when you shout LA LA LA?

                        Here’s more, from thun financial, experts in US expat tax planning. Go on, come back again in a few minutes and tell me again how non US financial investments are not punitively taxed…..

                        “”What are PFICs?
                        The moniker “Passive Foreign Investment Companies” (PFICs) sounds like some exotic and highly-specialized investment, and, as a result, many Americans automatically assume that they do not own any. For many unsuspecting Americans abroad this conclusion is a mistake, because PFICs are simply “pooled investments” registered outside of the United States encompassing mutual funds, hedge funds, insurance products and non-U.S. pension plans.

                        A bank account might also be a PFIC if that account is a money-market fund rather than simply a deposit account, because money market accounts are essentially short-maturity fixed-income mutual funds. Furthermore, PFIC rules can and generally do apply to investments held inside foreign pension funds unless those pension plans are recognized by the U.S. as “qualified” under the terms of a double-taxation treaty between the U.S. and the host country. Due to FATCA, the consequences of this mistake have become very significant.

                        The tax treatment of PFICs is EXTREMELY PUNITIVE compared to the tax treatment of similar investments that are incorporated in the U.S. For example, an American holder of a U.S. incorporated mutual fund invested in European stocks pays the low long-term capital gains rate of 15% if the fund is held for more than one year.

                        The same American investor who buys a nearly identical fund listed in the UK or in Switzerland (or any place outside the US) will find their investment subject to the PFIC taxation regime, which counts all income (including capital gains) as ordinary income and automatically taxes it at the top individual tax rate (39.6%). In some cases, the total tax on a PFIC investment may rise to well above 50%. Furthermore, capital losses cannot be carried forward or used to offset other capital gains.””

                        https://thunfinancial.com/why-americans-should-never-ever-own-shares-in-a-non-us-incorporated-mutual-fund/

                      • Mike Breen

                        Not only are you a slave, you are an ignorant one with a lot to learn. Two dozen criminals renounced? Tens of thousands are buying their freedom from the bosses back at the plantation. Criminals? No, slaves buying freedom.

                        You clearly get your info from the NRA but I’m not even going to go down the road of playing that game. The bottom line is that if I don’t like the way things are going, I am free to leave and be left alone bacause no government has a claim on me as property abd they cannot punish me for leaving.

                        None of that is true for you, slave

                      • William The Warlord

                        Where do you get the “idea” that any substantial number of sane people want to leave America.Sounds like more UK slave talk to me!

                        In America we no longer have English slaves like you.Here are the instruments we keep at home for using on Tyrants,royals and other slave mongers!!!Real slaves have no protected rights and are just subjects of the crown!!!Keep whining away it is your only freedom! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d7912a6f9028a46e95571a43f7c48ad6edbaa7ee805d12852666dc50e1c16c32.jpg

                      • shandy1

                        I Love this photo!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Around 8 million people that the USA claims as PROPERTY do not choose to live in the USA. You are an ignorant slave.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Keep raving away like a nutter! It is all a massive right wing conspiracy to enslave Americans who try to leave America.
                        Is that your point Mike?Or do all the guns make us slaves?

                        Do you understand what the difference is between a slave and a subject and a freeman?A freeman cannot be denied the right to be armed!So who is the slave now Mike?Where are your slave irons? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/07d7c57497e3f4f4d7422c0e07c45e9ea58930e11c2c173fcd1aa9b71544fc90.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        You are the slave, an armed slave. Everything I have told you is easily verified.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike,Please change your medication. There is no such thing as an “armed slave”!This is all a terrible hallucination in your mind alone!

                        What you claim is not verifiable because your underlying premise is fatally flawed.Americans can leave with all their wealth and relocate without penalty. Those very few who renounce their US Citizenship do not matter because they are such few and most are https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/626a28ab078448560dbd231ab493b30fa0739b82172243c70cc3b0400d77bb61.jpg criminals!

                        FATCA punishes and enslaves foreign banks not US Citizens Mike!

                        Just like Crooked Hillary punishes Democrats for voting!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Of course there is such a thing as an armed slave, you are one. Your guns did nothing to prevent it happening.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Wrong Mike, The guns keep me free and the thought of them keeps you enslaved!It is impossible to enslave an armed free https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c274441828ac340145732b353d8dd327a03a3ee9ec2e51bc3f779e6f4ab73730.jpg American!I made this one myself!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Again, you are living in a fantasy world. You don’t even know how our gun laws work, you simply assume we can’t have one. Wrong.

                        You are also wrong about your guns keeping you free. They do no such thing, you are living proof.

                        How does it feel to be property, tracked and traced and punished for leaving the plantation?

                        I would have no idea…..

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”It is impossible to enslave an armed free American”.

                        No it’s not, you are living proof. You are the property of the USA and you are not free to leave. Continuing to deny this, despite the mountain of evidence under your own nose is the act of an imbecile.

                        You know what? Before the USA sets about ruining your life with it’s own tax rules, FATCA has lead to your host country doing the same. For instance……

                        If you get paid a work bonus here, it is paid in to a SICAV (PFIC!!) but guess what? Like most complex financial products, it’s closed to Americans. Given the way the USA treats PFICS, that’s possibly a good thing. Of course, it also means your bonus is subject to full and vicious bonus taxation rules here.

                        So you see, another no win situation for the American abroad. Tell you what, go along to your nearest foreign based US embassy and ask those lining up to renounce why on earth they are giving up their US citizenship when US citizenship is freedom!?

                        You’ll probably get lynched.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike,Why do you think Americans cannot leave? FATCA says nothing about that!We are free to live anywhere with all our wealth!FATCA is a scam on the UK banks and citizens not Americans.Thank Obama!

                        How many Americans are lining up in London to renounce their US Citizenship? Answer,NONE! You are being deceived by a vast Soros conspiracy!That is only of interest to you UK slaves who feel enslaved.Slavery must be the new mind control game in the UK! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/41bbbdcfc667314db9d7cd5733842340d9c9b2da7937193c304d6a200ea5f01e.png

                        It is hard to lynch someone armed with three pistols,three knives and two hand grenades but when in the UK I always wear a “claymore AP Mine” on my chest.Nothing like saving the last round for myself and taking all my enemies with me at the same time.It really bugs the heck out of the brass!Better start calling me Spartacus again!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Your post is pure fantasy that completely ignores all you have been shown, all easily verified fact. Americans are prevented from living elsewhere by your tax code and are prevented from ignoring that unfortunate fact because FATCA means you can no longer hide. As to your wealth, don’t forget to pay your exit taxes! Americans are not free, they are owned by their government.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Dear Mike,I am sorry you are so enslaved you can not tell truth from fiction. The FATCA that has enslaved you does NOT apply to 99% of Americans.Read the details at IRS.gov. Unlike you,I do not believe what the corrupt UK media claims in print.I asked a friend who is a tax lawyer and he claimed it was another Obama hoax pushed by corrupt Chicago mobbed up accountants to extort foreign banks. You fell for it and got robbed. No Citizen in America or overseas has been affected.There are NO exit taxes. There is no need to use foreign banks when living overseas as a US Citizen. All US banks have European bank reciprocity arrangements. There are no lines at US Embassies of American Citizens waiting to renounce their Citizenship Mike. Those people are Legal immigrants waiting to get their US Visa!You have NO easily verfied facts,only a wild Liberal conspiracy theory that only seems to effect you Mike!Paranoia and dementia are a genetic fact of life in the UK,try and seek help.

                        But good news,President Trump will soon free you from your slavery in his first 100 days.Hang in there Mike,once more the Americans are coming to the rescue to liberate the Europeans from their bondage!What will you do when you are free? Will you riot like in 2011?Will you finally accept America as the World’s Leader?

                        President Trump will set you free from your slavery!

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”There are NO exit taxes.””

                        You know nothing, you silly little fantasist.

                        “”Unlike all other countries with the exception of Eritrea,[6] the United States taxes its citizens on worldwide income, whether or not they are resident in the United States. To deter tax avoidance by abandonment of citizenship, the United States imposes an expatriation tax on some of those who give up U.S. citizenship. The tax also applies to green-card holders who abandon U.S. residency after having held a green card for at least 8 of the last 15 tax years.””

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike,wikipedia is not a valid source for legal matters.It provides general information only and you are perfect proof of what happens when an uneducated person tries to use wikipedia to explain the complicated US tax law as applied to an extremely small numbers of those who renounce citizenship for tax purposes.There is NO Exit tax for people who do not renounce US Citizenship.You have been deceived and are the victim of your own enslavement.You have been Obamaized!Nothing that POS said was true!

                        This is all moot since President Trump will remove the FATCA from the tax laws in his first 100 days.Then what excuse will you use to justify your enslavement?Too many rich Americans with guns? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1e8ccf42182605ddf129fa7c1b9b78fed538e93ad5cb2896949f1f22b4a0ac55.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        Still sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LA LA LA.. Plenty of links in the WIKI article that will take you to multiple reputable sources that will confirm the same thing, just as everything else I have told you can be confirmed in the same way. You are owned, but as with slaves all through the history of slavery, you can leave if you raise enough money.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Wrong again Mike. There are no valid sources from wikipedia that show any US Citizens being prosecuted for violations of FATCA!
                        The fact that UK banks choose to finacialy victimize their UK customers means only that the UK subjects like you are the slaves!

                        Stop worrying about slavery in the UK,get a gun and fight back to free yourself.Your mind has enslaved you in a vast right wing conspiracy that makes you think without facts.

                        President Trump will save you by repealing the FATCA act and then you will be free.Just hide in your basement until the American tanks breakthrough the barbed wire in your Belgium slave camp and set you free!The Trump https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c7ba4681cbdbda5afa757c5bfe0e8a635b218c63060d1667613f57f589d61112.gif freedom is only weeks away!

                      • Mike Breen

                        You are a fantasist, totally bizarre behaviour. It’s not just UK banks that are hunting down US persons, banks and financial institutions all over the world are following US orders. T describe US law and FATCA as a conspiracy theory, when it’s been dragged through the courts all over the world, is the act of an idiot. That’s you.
                        You mean Rand Paul took a conspiracy theory to the US courts in order to fight it?! You mean Canadians have spent millions fighting a conspiracy theory? LOL! Ha ha. you really are as daft as a brush.

                        There’s a forum at the Isaac Brock society and they would be just thrilled to meet a space-cadet like you. Why don’t you pop along there and tell them to stop worrying, it’s all in their minds? You can tell them that the US taxation of their disabled children is all in their imagination!

                        Tell you what, this conspiracy is so well developed that the IRS are putting together numbers for it!! You can google the full article with the IRS

                        “”IRS budget shows ballooning cost of FATCA and slim revenue gains from international enforcement””

                        Posted on December 1, 2016 by Eric Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 4 Comments
                        From the latest Congressional Budget Office/Joint Committee on Taxation report, “Factors Affecting Revenue Estimates of Tax Compliance Proposals” (via, of course, TaxProf Blog), we get this hilarious table, based on figures from the IRS’ “FY 2016 Budget in Brief”. I present the figures below as they were in the original table: “Cost” and “Revenue” figures are given in millions of U.S. dollars; “ROI” (“return on investment”) is the revenue divided by the cost, and is given as a multiple of the cost rather than a percentage above break-even. Note the two items in red (colour and italics added by me), which have a much lower ROI than the other categories:

                        Category
                        First Year
                        (FY 2016)
                        Full Performance
                        (FY 2018)
                        Cost
                        Revenue
                        ROI
                        Cost
                        Revenue
                        ROI
                        Revenue-Producing Enforcement Initiatives to Implement Enacted Legislation
                        $166.1
                        $256.5
                        1.5
                        $160.4
                        $658.4
                        4.1
                        Implement Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)
                        71.0
                        67.7
                        1.0
                        66.6
                        155.1
                        2.3
                        Implement Merchant Card and Basis Matching
                        34.3
                        124.2
                        3.6
                        29.0
                        321.6
                        11.1
                        Address Impact of Affordable Care Act (ACA) Statutory Requirements
                        60.8
                        64.6
                        1.1
                        64.8
                        181.7
                        2.8
                        Cap Adjustment Enforcement Initiatives
                        $420.6
                        $861.4
                        2.0
                        $434.6
                        $2,798.9
                        6.4
                        Immediate and Directly Measurable Revenue-Producing Initiatives
                        $333.1
                        $861.4
                        2.6
                        $352.8
                        $2,798.9
                        7.9
                        Address International and Offshore Compliance Issues
                        40.7
                        49.3
                        1.2
                        43.1
                        159.6
                        3.7
                        Increase Audit Coverage
                        150.7
                        397.5
                        2.6
                        158.5
                        1,266.7
                        8.0
                        Enhance Collection Coverage
                        122.8
                        345.9
                        2.8
                        131.2
                        1,179.7
                        9.0
                        Improve Audit Coverage of Large Partnerships
                        16.2
                        44.5
                        2.7
                        16.9
                        129.1
                        7.6
                        Prevent Identity Theft and Refund Fraud
                        2.7
                        24.2
                        9.0
                        3.1
                        63.8
                        20.6
                        Strategic Revenue-Producing Initiatives
                        (which do not have immediately measurable ROI, but clear long-term revenue effects)
                        $87.5
                        $0.0
                        0.0
                        $81.8
                        $0.0
                        0.0

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike,You are still wrong and your US government statistics only support my position that this only effects Foreign banks and their non-US customers. No one in America has been prosecuted for violation of the FATCA because it is another Obama hoax and con game.Your premise that it constitutes slavery is “fantastic,totally bizarre behavior”!You are simply deluded and have been victimized by the corrupt UK media who loved Obama!President Trump has promised to repeal FATCA and thus you will be freed from UK bank slavery and extortion.Most Americans know to never trust foreign banks,to never renounce US citizenship and to never emigrate from the US unless to avoid prison!Most Americans do not have $50,000 cash in foreign banks to trigger FATCA jurisdiction. Freedom is not measured by the tax code even in Belgium or the old UK!Only ARMS in the hands of freemen keep government from enslaving the people! Even our President carries a concealed handgun. How about you?https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/434333c9e09c51ef86c8a52bf0ba3b1879a2355bd11133726b4aa22fa252e68d.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        Non-US customers? Why on earth would non-US customers be effected by legislation designed to hunt down US persons? Your capacity to learn nothing is spectacular. For gods sake man, how much more evidence do you need!!!???

                        From the IRS…… US ACCOUNT HOLDERS!! GET IT?

                        “”The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA), which was passed as part of the HIRE Act, generally requires that foreign financial Institutions and certain other non-financial foreign entities report on the foreign assets held by their U.S. account holders or be subject to withholding on withholdable payments.””

                        https://www.irs.gov/businesses/corporations/foreign-account-tax-compliance-act-fatca

                      • William The Warlord

                        Your own sources rebut your premise. Charles and Margaret Stewart were not US Citizens but yet their corrupt Chicago mob controlled accounting firm forced them to pay for a “review” for $600 to prove they were not US Citizens!HaHaHA,the laugh is on you!How many American Citizens have been prosecuted by FATCA? Answer none that we know off!Without funds to prosecute US Citizens FATCA is only a paper threat!This is brought to you by the same people who told you that Crooked Hillary had won the election.Still not slavery for Americans! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa369645a1e37ac9b9de818927c4f4d69bd35e5fe8d839fd914e5ec5e1345fe5.jpg

                        This is not slavery, this is the Obama tax code scam!Remember that Obama lies and most of his acts are false just like CATCA!Your own banks are passing the costs on to their customers rather than withdraw from the US banking market.Try again and try and stick to the topic.

                      • Mike Breen

                        FATCA forces foreign banks to hunt down Americans who are then subjected to the laws of the US tax code, not FATCA. But I realise that this is all too difficult for you to understand. So no, you are not going to find an American prosecuted for FATCA, because FATCA applies to foreign banks, you cretin.

                        Despite what now must be dozens of posts explaining what FATCA is and what it does, you STILL came back and claimed it does not apply to US persons and that nobody is renouncing. You now have proof of the enormous increase in renunciations and the word of the IRS themselves who clearly state the intended aim of FATCA, to find US persons.

                        What next? Oh I know, you are going to claim it’s all a myth.

                        Every time you type, you demonstrate a stupidity that is so epic, I can’t help but think it’s a wind up. I wish it was.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Wrong again Mike. FATCA is voluntary and does not require UK banks to do anything. You are being scammed and robbed by the Obama hoax called FATCA!It shows who has the slave mentality that your Banks are willing to defraud their UK subjects just to stay in business in America!You have provided NO evidence of US Citizens being victimized by FATCA!It is slavery for UK subjects only!
                        Less than 5,000 US citizens denouce their citizenship each year and 20 million willing immigrants will risk their lives and fortunes to take their place.It is no big deal here in America!We do not care!

                        Slavery is all in your UK mind controlled mind!Slaves are never allowed to own or even be skilled in the use of Arms!Like you!

                        The UK is in a downward spiral financially and culturally!Without it’s ARMS (Weapons of War) sales to blacklisted countries with real slavery,your UK economy would fall into ruin!

                        Your bigotry and hatred for everything American has clouded your thinking.You fail to understand the nature and facts of International banking!You have failed to impress anyone but yourself Mike with your fears of US slavery. President Trump will set you free from the UK slavery created by FATCAT!It is all in your mind!

                      • Mike Breen

                        FATCA is voluntary?! FATCA is effecting UK subjects only? You really are some special sort of clown! How is it possible for you to be so stupid?! FATCA hunts down US persons for tax purposes, idiot!

                        You want to see hatred of America? Go to the Isaac Brock society and meet the Americans being terrorised by the USA for having the audacity to not live on the plantation, there you will find hatred of America by Americans.

                      • William The Warlord

                        FATCA is voluntary in that it only effects banks that do business IN the US. If you do no US business,then FATCA has no jurisdiction over your bank or clients.All Swiss private banks are excluded from FATCA!Its about taxes silly and most people are excluded because they do not have $50,000 US dollars in a foreign bank.Being “found” to make sure you pay your US taxes is NOT SLAVERY!

                        Americans are free to come and go without government interference. How else did 8 million escape? Do not worry,President Trump will repeal FATCA and your slavery!Praise President T https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3103bf23eafe780086983e8ba910b2c4f8f91adc7e5e48d6e5d26ace87c64f3f.jpg Trump!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Yet more idiotic conclusions from you. Not doing business with the USA or business with thise that do is NOT AN OPTION for the huge majority of financial institutions in the planet. That’s how FATCA is forced on them, fool!
                        8 million escaped because you left them alone to get on with their lives. FATCA changed that, you now hunt them down and punish them with a pubitive tax code for a country where they don’t live. The fact you keep wittering on about $50,000 just confirms what you have proven veyond all doubt, you’re an idiot.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike,it is a scam and your UK banks are in on it!You failed to understand the small print from the IRS that only an extreme minority of Americans are effected by CATCA but UK banks are using CATCA as an excuse to defraud customers like the UK citizens the Stewarts!

                        America can easily lose 4,279 idiots and tax criminals who renounce their US citizenship. Every year untold millions want to take their place in America so it is no great loss!We lose that many shot in Chicago gang wars in a single year so what is the big deal?

                        Mike you are clearly incapable mentally or physically from understanding what kind of life free Americans lead.Taxes like government rules,regulations and death are all things to be avoided not complied with!You could never be an American Mike! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c412764d6fd30b28aba13c34f9efafa23dc52412a68c656ea79be8063360f703.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic
                        A measure targeting tax evasion pushes Americans out of bank accounts—and jobs—abroad.””

                        By Colleen Graffy

                        “”As this law comes into force, it is doing immense harm to Americans and American interests abroad.
                        Aimed at preventing money laundering, the financing of terrorism and tax evasion, Fatca requires foreign financial institutions such as banks to report the identities of their AMERICAN customers and any assets those AMERICANS hold.

                        Institutions that don’t comply are subject to a 30% withholding tax on any of their own transactions in the U.S.

                        This provision was enacted without regard for its effects on the 8.7 million U.S. CITIZENS living abroad, who have essentially been declared GUILTY OF FINANCIAL CRIMES unless they can prove otherwise. Many institutions no longer consider their American clients worth the burden and potential penalties of the law, and are abandoning them in droves.””

                        http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-law-that-makes-u-s-expats-toxic-1444330827

                      • William The Warlord

                        Sorry Mike you have been scammed and robbed again and the Wall Street Journal only supports my position not yours!How many of those US citizens has $50,000 dollars in a foreign bank?Maybe 1,000!How many should worry? Maybe 100 criminals who have undeclared funds in a foreign bank. Only fools and amateurs would fall for this Obama scam.How many non US Citizens are being victimized? Does not matter! This is much to do about nothing since most of the 8.7 million American ex-pats do not fall within the legal jurisdiction of FATCA!

                        Get real!Get a military gun and start a revolution to free the UK slaves.Your bigotry towards Americans and our guns has clouded your mind!Get some medical help!Quickly!Before you flush yourself! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9948a5fce98485ebf3308b5540a57e6ae0fe658ecde7f706c66b21fc67e83d59.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        No William, I have not been scammed. You are simply incapable of understanding and given understanding means you will understand that you are a slave, you don’t want to understand. The $50,000 is a red herring, the issue now is that no American can now hide from citizenship based taxation that makes a normal life impossible outside the USA. Non US people are not being victimised, US persons are. Please, go find a another brain cell to join the one you are using now.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike,Being subject to US taxes does not “make life impossible outside the US”!Millions live outside the US without $50,000 dollars cash in a foreign bank.It is no red herring it is a jurisdiction boundry that prevents the US government from going after innocent little people like your friends at the Brock society.Your own sources detail how UK subjects,not US Citizens are being scammed to be “reviewed” for “US Indicia” by their banks corrupt Chicago accountant!

                        President T https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3ed55306c33c131a81b4c3e4b16de193e0a94cbe7fb5cfa26459ab020f107a08.jpg Trump will revoke FATCA and set you free!Soon you will have thousands of celebretiiiies fleeing America,good riddance!

                      • Mike Breen

                        US citizenship has made normal life impossible for US persons since 2014. I don’t need freeing from the US tax code and FATCA, you do. The $50,000 is a reporting threshold for banks, it does NOT exempt those with less than that from the US tax code and the strategy of the banks is to report ALL US persons. But I may as well be explaining this to my dog.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike ,your own words and sources rebut your entire premise that “US Citizenship has made life impossible for US persons since 2014″!As you admit,”the strategy of the banks is to report all US persons”,showing it is the UK banks and their mob connected accounting firm from Chicago that is victimizing UK subjects. The law cannot be used against their will because we can sue the banks in the US Federal Courts which UK subjects cannot. A perfect Obama scam and lie and you all fell for it.

                        Do not worry President Trump will repeal FATCA and set you free!You should stop whining to your dog,even he knows you are wrong and need help!Listen to your dog,he is smarter than you are it seems.You can tell alot about a man by what kind of dogs or guns he owns.What is your favorite dog and firearm Mike?Here are mine! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6614de2232a34cc7e516505baa1c4b30f39ad46a79881c4906ba7053519ad61d.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        I don’t need setting free, idiot. You do.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike you still do not get it! President Trump will set you free not me!
                        The USA cannot close any banks that do not do business in the US!
                        The UK banks are enslaving only non US clients.Read your own sources for a reference!America is still the land of the free and home of the brave.Now what is your favorite gun and dog Mike? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/11027fbf6d05679f3ab9c8071342fb35374da57111964a92def3e24aae7d61d0.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        You can’t possibly be this dumb.

                      • William The Warlord

                        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2d82d2af241ab9b4be93f5999b184eac241528f359adb1cfbb4f2a81cfb37967.jpg Mike you are self projecting your issues onto me and that is not fair.

                        President Trump will repeal FATCA,bomb ISIS into oblivion,stop the new Cold War with Russia and show China that Hans are for servants not Leaders of the new world order!Then we will all be happy!

                        Now what is your favorite firearm and canine?

                      • Mike Breen

                        There is no point discussing this with you.

                        You have proof positive from multiple sources that FATCA exists in order to find US persons, Americans living all over the world, in order to apply a punitive tax code to them, one that makes normal life impossible outside of the USA.

                        You keep coming back and insisting it does not apply to Americans.

                        Utterly insane, but yet another gun owner.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike you have failed to present a single iota of evidence that any US Citizen was effected or enslaved by FATCA.You have provided some evidence that UK subjects are targetted by their banks and corrupt US accounting firms to steal money under the guise of doing a “review” for US “indicia”!You have only proved your emotional and delusional state of mind!Good thing you do not own a handgun!

                        You have made numerous false and inflammatory statements about FATCA and US Citizens being slaves and now I have called you on it and shown the world what a slave to base emotions and the US tax code you have become. You are simply wrong and confused! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b281b209673365282d3b99c438d12dbe9bd4636b9c50b47c316007a529c24971.jpg

                        Do not worry President Trump will set you free. But No refunds!

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”Mike you have failed to present a single iota of evidence that any US Citizen was effected or enslaved by FATCA.””

                        You are completely insane.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike ,only Jesus can set you free now. But President Trump will repeal CATCA which has you mentally enslaved!Taxes are for the little people!Reporting the handful of US Citizens with more than $50,000 cash is no reason to defraud all the UK depositors!CATCA is an Obama fraud and you all fell for it!

                        President Trump will lead the free world boldly into the age to be known to history https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d105ddb364c620a6249f46fc1b489348e22aa61917077bb78cc46e85c789038a.jpg as”The reign of the Donald”!

                        So what is your favorite gun and dog now that President Trump will set you free?

                      • Mike Breen

                        You really are this dumb. How utterly amazing.

                      • William The Warlord
                      • You were just playing dumb on the other site. You know what happened in OR.

                      • William The Warlord

                        What happened in Oregon?What other site are you referring to?

                      • William The Warlord

                        You have misunderstood and assumed facts not in evidence. I was curious about the Nevada back story on landswaps and Harry Reid. I was not referring to the Bundy Militiaman circus at the rescued bird sanctuary. The Bundy’s and their gang were found not guilty so we must presume their innocence or the government’s inability to support their case with admissible evidence.Hope that helps you out!God Bless America!

                      • SeeThroughYou

                        M2s full of Raufoss ain’t too shabby neither, lol

                      • shandy1

                        Looks like a 90mm anti tank weapon.

                      • Mike Breen

                        The one who is raving and is trying to rewrite facts about FATCA is you. You know virtually NOTHING about how FATCA and the US tax code conspire to make you the property of the USA, yet you come here insisting it effects virtually nobody. You are property, the property of the USA. I am a free man.

                        Tell you what, let’s put it to the test. I’ll leave my country and you leave yours, and we will see which one still has to report back to the plantation. Oh, wait, I think it’s YOU that is subject to a very special tax and penalty regime that will make your life impossible if you try to leave the plantation, and I think it’s YOU that will have your presence reported back to your owners by the worlds financial institutions.

                        I’m not even trying to score points when I say it makes me physically sick to think I might be you, property.

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike You are not a free man! It is your realization of that that is making you sick,not the guns and tax code of America!I consulted with my tax lawyers and they told me all about the Obama hoax called FATCA! It only applies to US Citizens with exclusive non US Bank accounts,whom are less than 1% of the 8 million Americans overseas.
                        It is an attack on foreign banks not US Citizens!!!Read the fine print and do not rely on BBC,Forbes and Guardian rehashes. They are as bogus as the Royals!You have been brainwashed by the UK GMHQ propaganda machine!The same people who had you raving like a nutter over American guns and how Crooked Hillary was 12 points ahead in the election polls.Try to name 5 Americans who are enslaved by the FATCA,if you can Mike!And change your medication!

                      • Mike Breen

                        You consulted with nobody, you idiotic fantasist. If you had, you would not be repeating complete and utter nonsense. Yes, banks have faced paying for the costs, the costs of HUNTING DOWN ESCAPED US SLAVES!

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike how much does it cost to “hunt down escaped US slaves”?
                        I have two Bounty Hunter friends (Animal and Rob) that are looking to make some quick Euros!Maybe you can help them as part of your therapy?Do guns make you feel enslaved? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a1427951c96267366e6ac80eaade784f2aaa6c0602b3b0d53fae89a9c95f0897.jpg

                      • Mike Breen

                        “”Mike how much does it cost to “hunt down escaped US slaves”?””

                        It’s estimated at around £500 per UK family household, about $630 or put another way, hundreds of thousands of dollars per escaped US slave.
                        By the way, I can have a gun. You really don’t have a clue, do you|?

                        “”Draconian legislation enacted in America – and aimed solely at helping American authorities collect tax from their overseas citizens – is translating into bills of hundreds of pounds for ordinary British families.
                        The total cost to British businesses and individuals of abiding by the new US laws, which became effective here only last month, is put at £1bn. Most people will pay unknowingly through higher fees for their investments, banking and other services. But for some families the costs are more explicit. And the invoices are starting to land on their doormats.
                        The law, the “Foreign Account Tax Compliant Act” (or FATCA) was passed by US Congress in 2010, but it only applied in Britain from July 1. It requires financial institutions to undertake reviews on customers’ tax residency details, or face a 30pc penalty on their US operations. Since most large financial organisations operating in Britain are global, they have no choice but to comply – whatever the cost.

                        Some individual customers are being contacted by their banks or other financial providers if, for example, they appear to have links with the US or own property there. But tens of thousands of other families are beginning to receive letters, and invoices, simply because they have established run-of-the-mill family trusts.

                        The first Charles and Margaret Stewart knew about FATCA was when, earlier this month, a letter arrived from their accountant, Grant Thornton, warning that a “review” was required into a trust they had established for their daughter in 2004. The letter said: “There are certain steps you need to take. The starting point will be to carry out a detailed review…” It estimated the initial costs would be £350 plus VAT, possibly more, “based upon the time spent on the matter”.””

                      • William The Warlord

                        Mike, Get a grip on reality. First as a UK subject you have no legal right to be armed with modern weapons of war! Having to obtain government permission to own a shotgun designed to kill little animals or birds from ambush with a single shot is very different than having the Birthright to own all the modern weapons of war!You are the slave to the Crown,nothing more!

                        With regards to FATCA,you are self enslaved and do not understand how you, the British Citizen,have been scammed and robbed,not the US Citizen. None of my US or Swiss banks dare try to charge me to”review” my trusts,accounts or corporations just because the UK passes some tricky law. In America we have rights the banks cannot violate unlike the UK! The Grant Thornton accounting firm is a Chicago based organized crime outfit that lobbied to get FATCA passed so they could fleece millions of NON-US Citizens like you and the Stewarts. Your lack of rights or a real and fair judiciary prevents you from objecting. The UK banks are only required to comply with FATCA “IF” they do business in the US! Your paranoia about “slavery” is built on your fantasies and lack of reading comprehension,nothing more!You are brainwashed and self enslaved ,not me.Frankly I am laughing at your obvious dementia!Try to get some help and get free like me! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b7fb41e0cd523af6b318fc776aae2e4fa14908e840ee3d4a855b6003d9877c87.jpg

                      • shandy1

                        I love this definition!

                      • Mike Breen

                        Just another example of why it is not possible to live life overseas and remain an American. What sort of filthy country seeks to tax the disabled of another? Oh I know, the USA.

                        On March 18, 2010, the United States (US) announced a world-wide provision known as the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) which demands that every non-US financial institution on earth—such as all Canadian banks and credit unions—must enter into an agreement with the US government to report to its tax agency all accounts held by US residents and US citizens—including US citizens that are residents or citizens of Canada—or face a 30% exaction.

                        Ultimately this means any Canadian resident with an RDSP that is also a US citizen is required by the US to pay income taxes to the US on any plan growth. It should be noted that the US typically considers children born of a US citizen to also be US citizens, even if they were born in Canada and have never set foot in the United States. In addition, this rule would affect the accounts of any Canadians with a US spouse or other family member, with whom they may hold assets jointly, as well as Canadians who may have temporarily lived or worked in the States.

                        On February 5, 2014, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty and National Revenue Minister Kerry-Lynne D. Findlay announced that they agree to meet the objectives of FATCA, much to the concern of many Canadians. Starting July 1, Canada Day, the Canadian Revenue Agency will voluntarily hand over the financial accountholder information of any US resident or citizen, and their families, living in Canada, directly to the United States government.

                        Although the Canadian government has negotiated for a number of registered accounts to be exempt from the private information CRA is giving to the United States under FATCA , including RDSPs, these savings accounts remain subject to taxation by the United States and would still need to be reported annually on a US tax return, or the plan holder will face serious penalties.

                        Compounding the issue, the complex international reporting requirements of the U.S. can be difficult and therefore often require the expensive services of a professional tax advisor—possibly negating any benefit a person with a disability had earned in his or her savings plan.

                      • Mike Breen

                        BBC? Does it matter? How about Forbes?

                        “”Record Numbers Renounce Their U.S. Citizenship

                        Once again, the number of Americans renouncing U.S. citizenship has gone up, up 560% from its Bush administration high. In 2015, there were approximately 4,300 expatriations according to the published names of individuals who renounced. The name and shame list is published quarterly, with the most recent three-month total being 1,058. That brings the total to 4,279 for 2015.

                        One recent change that could pay a part in the future is that the IRS now has the power to revoke your passport.

                        Of course, these numbers seem tiny compared to the influx of immigrants. Yet expatriations have historically been much lower. Moreover, the published list is also incomplete, with many not counted.

                        Surprisingly, no one seems to know exactly how big the real number is, even though the IRS and FBI both track Americans who renounce citizenship. There is no single explanation, though with global tax reporting and FATCA, the list of the individuals who renounce keeps increasing, “”

                      • Mike Breen

                        Still waiting for you to tell me how you can survive with $400,000 tax bills on top of your local taxes, $400,000 tax bills that the locals don’t face.

                      • GAU-8

                        How will he ever survive with $500,000 in profit? Maybe he should fire his accountant. He obviously felt keeping his citizenship, SSN, and passport were valuable. If your looking for sympathy go somewhere else

                      • Mike Breen

                        Profit?

                        He needed to buy another home which will also have increased in value over the years, which is why in this country we do not tax gains on the principle residence. It’s part of a balanced taxation system where he will pay taxes on things you do not, and get breaks where you do not. If he goes to buy another home of the same value, he has LOST $400,000 to a foreign country, money stolen from our economy. Money he has to find.

                        I already explained to you that the vast majority of people in the world do not go to any lengths to remove another citizenship. Not because that citizenship is valuable (it’s worth nothing) but because another citizenship is benign, harmless, and it it’s any trouble to get rid of, why would you bother? They don’t keep citizenships because they are worth something, they keep them because there is no need to get rid of them.

                        The exception is US citizenship, it’s toxic and damaging both to the person infected with it and all they have any sort of financial link to, such as families and businesses. This only really began to be understood by millions abroad in mid to late 2014.

                        Many if not most of those effected do not have a passport or an SS number. They are being hunted down by your masters based on US claims of ownership and forced to get social security numbers so they can renounce at great expense to them. What do you achieve by doing that, by the way?

                        Many who do have a passport only have one because the USA, again in fairly recent years, suddenly started looking for “US indicia” in those visiting the US and started demanding that the citizens of other countries obtained US passports for the purpose of visiting the USA.

                        Speaking of renouncing, why do you claim people are keeping citizenships for their own benefit (which is what, precisely?) when it’s quite clear that renouncing can be and usually is ruinously expensive? I can assure you that millions are just trying to keep a low profile and hoping that somebody, somewhere, put’s a stop to the appalling actions of the USA.

                        Do you understand the idea that some people might just be hoping that they don’t have to hand over 30 percent of their families assets in return for the USA just leaving them, foreign citizens, alone to lead their lives in peace? And so, sit tight on that imposed citizenship hoping this is just a nightmare?

                        But why am I bothering to explain this to an idiot like you. You don’t have the mental capacity to understand the wrong doing of the USA here or how it effects YOU. You completely lack empathy based on some sort of jealousy mixed with a little schadenfreude. You are clearly taking pleasure in the punishment you inflict on those who try to escape the plantation.

                        Be happy, slave.

                      • GAU-8

                        He needed only to buy a home of equal or greater value to what his old home sold for within a fixed period of time. Be honest

                      • Mike Breen

                        I don’t need your advice to be honest, I am honest. If indeed that is all he needed to do to avoid the US tax bill, then fine. To accuse me of dishonesty because I don’t know the finer workings of the US tax system is in itself, dishonest.

                      • GAU-8

                        ,

                      • GAU-8

                        Show me the data they are not. Not the definition, the data.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Show me the data that elephants are not giraffes. Not the definitions, the data!

                      • GAU-8

                        Hard to believe it, but that is the dumbest thing you ever said.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        The problem is, unless you define what it is you are comparing, you cannot start counting data, but that never seems to stop you.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Edit: Make that 58 officers shot dead so far this year.
                        https://www.odmp.org/officer/23035-detective-benjamin-marconi

                      • GAU-8

                        Why does that ‘unalienable and innate’ still not apply to prisoners enslaved as punishment for crime?

                        Such as?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Such as slavery, still legal in the USA as a punishment for crime under the 13th Amendment

                      • GAU-8

                        Hard labor? That’s all you got? You have an issue with a convicted felon working? Meh.

                      • GAU-8

                        why did some of them not apparently exist until they were formulated in a “paper construct?”

                        Examples?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So you could not be enslaved, even before 1865?

                        Black people had the right to vote before 1870?

                        Women could vote before 1919?

                      • GAU-8

                        Read the amendments dipstick

                      • Bluesman1950

                        I did. So were those ‘unalienable and innate rights’ around before the ‘paper constructs’ added them?

                      • GAU-8

                        1928 before UK let women vote. 1981 before Commonwealth citizens could vote. 1932 before landed middle class could vote.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “1932 before landed middle class could vote.”
                        1832 actually.

                        Indeed. Your ‘rights’ are no more unalienable and innate’ than ours, You rely on your constitution being amended, just as we change our laws with Acts of Parliament. I’m glad you are beginning to understand the similarity.

                      • GAU-8

                        What happened to your rights? You piss them away by legislation. Not really rights then. Simple concept. Totally lost on you.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes, that damned democracy, passing laws that we voted for. What were we thinking?

                      • GAU-8

                        Thanks, my statement holds true.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        As long as you think so!

                      • GAU-8

                        You mean there are other factors? It’s not guns? Thanks for defeating your own argument.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        That wasn’t actually my argument, but arming a violent nation like the USA doesn’t help!

                      • GAU-8

                        Violent? Data deficient dweeb. You really need to do some homework. Between this and your complete lack of understanding of our rights, and apparent refusal to read even the most basic document – the Bill of Rights your idiocy and prejudice are glowing red hot.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Your homicide rates are the burning shame.

                      • GAU-8

                        Yes 1E-07 daily difference.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes, 5 times ours.

                      • GAU-8

                        Be careful if you think those are significant odds….because your daily risk of stroking out is 10x that difference.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We all have a 100% chance of dying one way or another. As an American your chance of being murdered is 500% mine.

                      • GAU-8

                        1E-07 today….terrifying.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “1E-07 today….terrifying.”
                        Yes, that sounds so much less worrying than 41 people murdered per day!
                        So much nicer than over 270 shot daily.
                        Much more comforting than 650 under-12’s shot each year.
                        http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

                        If 45 Boeing 737-800’s crashed every year, killing all aboard, something might be done about it.
                        Killing 8,124 with firearms is just a by-product of your ‘rights’, so no problem there then.

                      • GAU-8

                        Still haven’t done any research beyond a top number….sad. I’d I were you I’d be figuring out how to ban silverware at work on your 38% number. That’s how your logic works afterall, ban knives and those murders go away…criminals won’t switch to cricket bats.

                        We went even talk about the 500,000 illegal guns your home office admits exist, although some studies our it at 2 million.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “That’s how your logic works afterall, ban knives and those murders go away…criminals won’t switch to cricket bats.”
                        Try carrying out a massacre with a cricket bat! The old ‘You can kill with anything , so are you going to ban everything?’ is typical gun nut rubbish. You can kill with almost anything, but armies don’t carry cricket bats, or potato peelers or plastic bags. They carry guns, because they are the best means of killing large numbers of people quickly at long range.

                        “We went (sic) even talk about the 500,000 illegal guns your home office admits exist, although some studies our (sic) it at 2 million.”

                        Let’s see the link to that Home Office figure. “Some studies” carried out by whom I wonder? Difficult to assess your assertions when you can’t or won’t support them with evidence. In which case, they can be ignored.

                      • GAU-8

                        Massacres. Like those that can accomplished with bombs? Most homicides and assaults are not Mark Wahlberg “shooter” 1,900 yard shots. Most are 1:1 at close range.

                        You are ignored. Figure out that your rights are grants from Government yet, and just one law away from being gone?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        No attempt to substantiate either of your assertions re illegal firearms in the UK.

                        “Massacres. Like those that can (sic) accomplished with bombs?”
                        So you think that as many people would be murdered with bombs if the offenders couldn’t get their hands on guns? You are obviously living in the same fantasy world as another poster here who thinks that flying planes into buildings would be an obvious alternative!

                        “Most homicides and assaults are not Mark Wahlberg “shooter” 1,900 yard shots. Most are 1:1 at close range.”
                        No sh*t Sherlock! So do you carry a cricket or baseball bat as adequate protection? No, you carry a gun.

                        If you think that guns are just one means of aggression or defence, easily and equally replaceable by a cricket bat, then I challenge you to a duel. The usual ‘back to back, 10 paces, turn and attack’ format.
                        You can have a deadly cricket bat and I will have a Glock 9mm pistol and may the best man win.

                        “Figure out that your rights are grants from Government yet, and just one law away from being gone?”
                        Just like your Constitution, which has been amended 27 times. What rights did the 18th Amendment give you?

                      • GAU-8

                        Given the disarming of the British people had no effect on homicide rates your data proves the point.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Given the disarming of the British people had no effect on homicide rates your data proves the point”

                        Are you still referring to the 0.1% of people who were no longer allowed to keep handguns as a hobby after 1997 as “the disarming of the British people”? How quaint

                      • GAU-8

                        Try all you 20th century efforts.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Try all you (sic) 20th century efforts.

                        The ones that mean we’re 68 times less likely to be murdered with a firearm than an American you mean? They seem to be working pretty well thanks.

                      • GAU-8

                        Where would alcohol be considered a right? No different than a federal drug law. Man, you are stupid today. Time to stop digging and call it a day.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Ah, so you have the right to bear arms that can kill other people but the government can control what you put into your own body. You have no choice in the matter. The state knows better than its American subjects

                        Land of the Free!

                      • GAU-8

                        Like your misuse of drug act? Seriously, improve your argument.

                        Shall we talk your Twitter police? British CCTV cameras, 1 for every 11 people.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So you agree that we are no freer than you. Much less free if you compare how many people you keep locked up and made to work for little or no money.

                        How many people have the “Twitter police”, whoever they are, shot this year?

                        I’m really worried when I shop in Waitrose that their cctv cameras are linked to GCHQ or the Pentagon!

                      • GAU-8

                        What did those people do? Committed crime and convicted of felonies and mostly violent crime. Why shouldn’t they be separated from society and pay a debt to society? Do you think it’s difficult to go through life without committing a felony?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Committed crime and convicted of felonies and mostly violent crime.”
                        What, in the ‘less-violent than the UK’ USA? How can that be?

                      • GAU-8

                        Did you forget…you don’t jail anybody….you just give them a stern talking to.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Did you forget…you don’t jail anybody….you just give them a stern talking to.”

                        Did you forget that I explained to you that that was just a joke. I know Americans have a problem with irony, but seriously, I didn’t realise you were that dim.

                      • GAU-8

                        I see sarcasm is lost on you too.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        As he back-pedals furiously!

                      • Mike Breen

                        But it’s odd, no? You insist (lie) that the UK is vastly more violent and even our government say so, yet look at the sheer volumes you have in prison that you insist commit violent crime, on top of your vastly higher murder rate. Yet we are the violent ones? Your arguments will never add up, because they are crap.

                      • Mike Breen

                        Twitter police? Can you direct me to that department? I googled twitter police and came up with this as my first hit.

                        “”Police say Ohio teen broadcasts himself firing into neighbor’s house.””

                      • GAU-8

                        2 seconds for a man to cross a twenty foot room. Can you judge intent, draw and hit your target that fast? Given you don’t have castle laws my guess is you would be jailed for murder. I think your legal wording would call it disproportionate use of force.

                        Any more stupid comments?

                      • Mike Breen

                        A slave preaching to us about rights. Priceless.

                      • GAU-8

                        Yes. 1E-07 difference in that daily risk is huge. Kept in perspective…per 100,000 there is a 3.0 per 100,000 difference in homicide rate, UK has a 10 per 100,000 cancer death difference, the five year survival rates also are 10% higher in the US. I’ll take the US.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes, we all die eventually. There are lots of other things that kill you, even if you can’t actually post any links to substantiate your figures.
                        The USA has twice our road death rate per billion passenger miles.
                        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rateJ
                        The USA has over 160% our fire death rate.
                        https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v12i8.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjFw7GxvKvQAhVlBcAKHZnRAzIQFgguMAI&usg=AFQjCNFqTB5C4JtTfH7PPVXwENP8VZI1Fw&sig2=SEAXxbUBXyskaWGVldIEbw
                        So a murder rate 5 times ours is irrelevant?

                        Kept in perspective, your murder rate is 5 times ours and your firearms homicide rate last year was I’ve 60 times ours.

                      • GAU-8

                        So all you have said is your prefer to murder people by the blade. 1E-07 difference today in homicide rates.

                        You certainly have your panties in a bunch today. Finally realize that you don’t have rights? You have what your Government lets you have.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “So all you have said is your prefer to murder people by the blade.”

                        Not as many as Americans, whose knife murder rate is higher than ours. You obviously like murdering people a lot more than we do, 5 times more in fact.

                      • GAU-8

                        38% of your homicides are by blade, quick ban knives.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We have already banned the carrying of most knives in public. Do try to keep up.

                        The USA has a rate of knife homicides 143% that of the UK. You just hide it by murdering so many more with guns.

                        “As in previous years, the most common method of killing for both male and female victims was by a knife or other sharp instrument, with 186 such homicides (36% of the total) recorded in the year ending March 2015 compared with 204 (39%) in the previous year (Appendix Table 2.04 (1.59 Mb Excel sheet)). This is the lowest number of homicides by knife or sharp instrument since 1993 (182). Although the absolute number of homicides committed by knives or sharp instruments has fallen over recent years, the proportion of homicides committed by this method has only fluctuated slightly from year-to-year as there has been a general downward trend in all homicides.”
                        http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium

                        In the same year the USA recorded 1544 knife homicides.
                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2011-2015.xls

                      • GAU-8

                        38% of murders by knife, you should ban all knives. Banning guns really worked. No wait, it didn’t did it? Your rates were lower before.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Our laws and society have kept our murder rate around 20% of yours for some time, so I think that they are working well enough.

                      • GAU-8

                        Not the laws, I’ll grant it’s other factors. Thanks for starting to agree with me.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “I’ll grant it’s other factors.”
                        The big one being, we don’t possess the guns with which to shoot people and generally never have.

                      • GAU-8

                        The big one is not guns, your own laws already prove there is no correlation between your systematic disarmament and homicide or violent crime rate. Maybe tomorrow you will be less dense.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “..your own laws already prove there is no correlation between your systematic disarmament and homicide or violent crime rate.”
                        What our laws that restrict our ownership of firearms and our firearms homicide rate 1/68th of yours? No connection obviously! Or our laws restricting the possession of bladed or pointed articles and your knife homicide rate 140% of ours? Pure coincidence!

                        I have no optimism that your density will decrease at any point in the near future.

                      • GAU-8

                        Homicide Rate. I know you are dense today.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Homicide Rate. I know you are dense today.”
                        Look up ‘non sequitur’.

                      • GAU-8

                        Yes you did present an invalid argument, glad you recognise that.

                        My logic holds, your data shows it. There is no relationship to your GUN laws and homicide rates.

                        http://www.math.uah.edu/stat/expect/covariance.html

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Nice link.
                        Admission & Aid
                        Academics
                        Research
                        Campus Life
                        Athletics
                        News
                        Apply
                        Visit Us
                        Request Info
                        404 ERROR PAGE
                        404 File Not Found
                        Sorry, this page is missing.
                        charger blue
                        Charger Blue is scouring the campus to find it.

                        I’m not sure how it substantiates your point though!

                      • GAU-8

                        #www.math.uah.edu/stat/expect/covariance.html#
                        Worked for me….don’t know what your issue is.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        This site can’t be reached

                        math.uah.edu’s server DNS address could not be found.
                        Did you mean http://www.math.uah.edu/stat/expect/?
                        Search Google for math uah stat expect

                      • GAU-8

                        I can’t fix stupid, you are on your own. Good luck with that.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Try fixing dishonest and post some genuine links.

                      • GAU-8

                        You are aware of the Disqus quirks with long URLs right?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Yes. Right. Indeed. Ok!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Corrected your link and got it to work, as I am sure you really wanted me to
                        http://www.math.uah.edu/stat/expect/Covariance.html

                        “Recall that by taking the expected value of various transformations of a random variable, we can measure many interesting characteristics of the distribution of the variable. In this section, we will study an expected value that measures a special type of relationship between two real-valued variables. This relationship is very important both in probability and statistics.

                        Basic Theory

                        Definitions

                        As usual, our starting point is a random experiment with probability measure
                        P
                        P on an underlying sample space. Unless otherwise noted, we assume that all expected values mentioned in this section exist. Suppose now that
                        X
                        X and
                        Y
                        Y are real-valued random variables for the experiment with means
                        E
                        (
                        X
                        )
                        E(X),
                        E
                        (
                        Y
                        )
                        E(Y) and variances
                        var
                        (
                        X
                        )
                        var(X),
                        var
                        (
                        Y
                        )
                        var(Y), respectively.”
                        etc. etc. etc.

                        I won’t paste the whole article, but there is quite a lot more of it!

                        Feel free to explain, showing your workings, how that relates to our respective homicide rates. I mean, you wouldn’t just be randomly searching for statistical terms and pasting them in blindly just to make it look as if you knew what you were talking about, would you? Surely not!

                      • GAU-8

                        When the sign is positive, the variables are said to be positively correlated; when the sign is negative, the variables are said to be negatively correlated; and when the sign is 0, the variables are said to be uncorrelated.

                        Year Gun Homicide Rate Police Force
                        1997 0.120 125000
                        1998 0.100 124500
                        1999 0.095 124000
                        2000 0.110 123000
                        2001 0.130 124000
                        2002 0.180 127000
                        2003 0.150 130000
                        2004 0.130 137000
                        2005 0.145 141000
                        2006 0.100 142000
                        2007 0.105 142000
                        2008 0.100 142000
                        2009 0.080 143000

                        http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf

                        Covariances: Gun Homicide Rate, 1997 Law

                        Gun Homicide Rate

                        Police Force -59
                        1997 Law 0

                        Conclusion: No correlation between 1997 law and gun homicide rate, Negative Correlation between gun homicide rate and number of police

                        Simple enough????

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So you can’t actually link anything to that article. Thought not!

                        “Conclusion: No correlation between 1997 law and gun homicide rate,”
                        Indeed, the 1997 Act which removed legally-held firearms from 0.01% of the population was not aimed at gangsters, but at preventing another massacre by legal firearms owners, not what this article is trying to suggest. At last you seem to understand it.

                        Strange though, that you stopped at 2009, 7 years ago, following which police numbers were progressively reduced by over 19000 to 125,185 in 2015 and firearms homicides also reduced to 21 that year!

                        Care to correlate those figures?

                        “Since 2002/03 there has been a general decline in the recorded use of firearms. In 2002/03 there were just over 24,000 firearm offences. By 2014/15 there were just under 7,870 recorded offences – a decrease of just over 16,200 (67%) compared to 2002/03. The number of firearm offences recorded declined by just over 5% per annum between 2002/03 and 2014/15.”
                        file:///E:/Users/user/Downloads/CBP-7654.pdf

                      • GAU-8

                        I just did. The first line is a direct quote, the math is the covariance calculated. Sorry if that went way over your head.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You just forgot 2009 to 2015. Understandable!

                      • GAU-8

                        I’m sorry what gun control laws did you implement then? None.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We just kept the firearms laws we had and the numbers of gun crimes continued to fall as did the numbers of police.

                      • GAU-8

                        And the correlation to gun laws? Still zero. Do try to remember the point I made. There is no correlation between your gun control laws and violent crime rates. But whenever you want to concede it’s other factors feel free to.

                      • GAU-8

                        So “other factor?”

                        Again, you prove my case. Thanks.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        The USA still manages to murder people with knives at a per capita rate over 50% that of the UK. Not banning knives is really working for you isn’t it.

              • GAU-8

                I think your words were “not authorized”….so were / are you mad, bad or stupid?

                • Bluesman1950

                  your attempt at a joke is wearing pretty thin.

                  • GAU-8

                    I’ll just go with (d), all of the above.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      Yes, you do that.

    • CABorn71

      The real reason gun control laws don’t work? CRIMINALS DON’T FOLLOW THE LAWS…

      • smartalek

        Clearly, then, we should get rid of the laws against theft, murder, etc — they obviously do no good either.
        Why are you not one of our leading lights, with such brilliance, CABorn?

        • CABorn71

          We have all of those laws in place, yet all those things still happen. Why, because some people do not follow the law. Thank you for helping me to prove my point. If you want to leave your safety up to law enforcement in your area, that’s your choice. But you can’t force me to rely on the unreliable, for protection. I live in Colorado where we have the equivalent to the make my day laws, and we have a very low crime rate. In fact, much lower than say Chicago, with all of their gun laws. The laws simply don’t work. Basic common sense dictates that criminals are far less likely to break into someones home if they know firearms are present. This, is common sense, not brilliance…. And I am sorry you don’t understand the difference between the two. Apparently, neither does our Government. I can fix a lot of things, but I can’t give people the ability to think rationally or with common sense….

        • Ted120

          ROFL BS

          Here are the idiots in Chicago “thinking” of actually enforcing gun control laws.

          Chicago to get tougher on Gun crime
          http://fusion.net/story/213186/74-people-shot-in-chicago-last-year-had-just-served-time-for-a-gun-charge/

          According to their internal review, 74 victims of gun violence in the city this year would have still been in jail for illegal gun possession if tougher sentencing rules were in place. Almost everyone charged with the crime receives the one-year minimum, the Sun-Timesfound, compared to the maximum sentence of three years.
          On the other end of the barrel, 86 shooting suspects would also have been in jail on the same charge had they been given harsher sentences.
          The bare minimum is that gun possession should be treated as a violent crime.

      • Ted120

        And WE DON’T ENFORCE THE DAMN LAWS

        • rocky6500

          even if we enforce the laws. there will always be someone with a gun because you can just make them!

          • Ted120

            hard to do…and its the fear of the JAIL time that keeps people from having and using guns…

            • rocky6500

              i mean if its the jail time people fear then why don’t they stop using guns for violence and crime?

              • Ted120

                Simply because there is not significant jail time…the reality is cites like Chicago don’t enforce their own damn gun laws….but they are thinking of doing it……maybe

                Chicago to get tougher on Gun crime
                http://fusion.net/story/213186/74-people-shot-in-chicago-last-year-had-just-served-time-for-a-gun-charge/

                According to their internal review, 74 victims of gun violence in the city this year would have still been in jail for illegal gun possession if tougher sentencing rules were in place. Almost everyone charged with the crime receives the one-year minimum, the Sun-Timesfound, compared to the maximum sentence of three years.
                On the other end of the barrel, 86 shooting suspects would also have been in jail on the same charge had they been given harsher sentences.
                The bare minimum is that gun possession should be treated as a violent crime.
                – Anthony Guglielmi, spokesperson, Chicago PD

      • Mike Breen

        Our criminals very, very rarely use guns. We have some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. Sure, if they want a gun badly enough, they can get one. Why do you suppose they don’t? Let me start…..

        1: They are highly unlikely to be faced with a gun themselves.

        Over to you……

    • Rumpled

      We will be neither safer nor freer when only badged authorities may keep and bear arms.

    • RalphSpyer

      Uniter States citizens do not trust our government , the Vietnam war, the Iraq war ,JFK murder, Vince Foster murder, 911 third building, CIA and drugs, blowback,Next you have self defense

    • People Voice

      Savior Without Guns – The American Gun Debate

      offers great perspective on The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

      http://vote.us.org/marketplace/1/savior-without-guns-the-american-gun-debate/

    • Rachel Sonowa

      My colleagues needed OPM Qualifications Availability Form C last month and located a great service that hosts 6,000,000 forms . If people are searching for OPM Qualifications Availability Form C too , here’s http://goo.gl/RJMN2c

    • Bluesman1950

      Why are you too chicken schiite to post the proper link and data proving you right?

      Because you don’t have any such links or data!

      I don’t have to prove you wrong, you have first to try to prove that your assertion is true.

      • jarhead1982

        Cluck cluck cluck cluck goes blue balls

        • Bluesman1950

          And still no evidence from clucking Jarheadcase.

    • Bluesman1950

      “Post any violent crime report and prove the bad guy was a lawful gun owner to begin with liar….”
      You asked for one, I gave you one!

      Still you could try disproving some of the 885 examples in the attached website: http://concealedcarrykillers.org/

      • jarhead1982

        So sad how 1 out of 11,00 isn’t 36 times more likely eh try again liar

    • Bluesman1950

      What proves you wrong is the fact that you can’t put up a single fact to support whatever point it was you were trying to make. I have nothing to prove, you’ve already done it for me.

      • jarhead1982

        So sad the anti gunphaggit liar refuses to post the proper govt cite to prove he isn’t lying

        • Bluesman1950

          Still no evidence. O.k

          • Grey Wolf

            Let me just bring up what the author was making a point about….gun control is about stopping the people from having a way to stop a government run a muck ….take native americans…(give us your guns and we will take care of you) they lied to us and still killed many of us off the only reason we are still here is because many of our ancestors hid …i will never be apart of giving a government my weapon and ending up like my ancestors i have learned from their mistake…have all of you?

          • jarhead1982

            Youre too stupid to google the british coroners office, so noted liar…

            • Bluesman1950

              There is no such thing as “the british coroners office”!

              I have, however already checked Coroners Statistics Annual, 2015, England and Wales
              Ministry of Justice Statistics bulletin:
              https://www . gov . uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525916/coroners-statistics-annual-2015-england-and-wales.pdf

              There is nothing there which supports your silly lies.

              • jarhead1982

                Wow a real link……what does it say about all those homicides totals being different than home office crime data sweety….we are waiting

                • Bluesman1950

                  Absolutely nothing which supports your lies. Try reading it yourself.

                  • jarhead1982

                    You’re acting like its the first time you masturbated and don’t know how to close the deal even at your advanced age….must be a real teensy tool

                    Come on coward, I want to see you post something stupid or some partial truth so we can take your lies apart yet again ….

                    Here’s your chance, you can post the coroners data and compare against the home office and clarify why there is such a discrepancy ….

                    Too frightened to do so eh liar….

                    • Bluesman1950

                      No need to. If you can find anything there that contradicts the Home Office stats post it. But there isn’t anything is there? So you just resort to your sexual fantasies as insults again.

                      Sad boy.

                      • jarhead1982

                        So you’re a liar and a coward, got it

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So you have nothing but childish abuse. Got it.

        • Typical

          He’s asked you to provide proof which you refuse to do.
          Don’t accuse him of somehing you’re guilty of

          • jarhead1982

            The british coroners office data is not sealed and prohibited to the public information, so WE DARE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG, but the severely mentally ill anti gunphaggits with their inherent narcissistic personality disorder of their believing they are god, when they arent, never provide any proof to back their claims…….and blueballs is an anti gunphaggit, you lose liar

      • Typical

        Jarhead can’t prove anything and he knows it which is why he never backs anything up with facts when asked and resorts to name calling.
        Typical yank that thinks he knows anything about other countries and more than the people that live there but thinks they don’t know anything about his even when presenting him with facts
        He is fun to play with.

        • jarhead1982

          Poor widdle mukey pedo puffer has started another account we see…..

    • Bluesman1950

      “In other words, the 15-year experiment in a (UK) handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.”

      The year after Dunblane, 1996 there were 59 killings with handguns in Britain; in 2014 there were only 29.

      If the USA had the same rate of handgun killings as the UK their figure would be about 150
      Last year in the USA there were 13,393.

      Absolutely nothing?

      • OneBadStud

        You’ve done exactly what the author described, made the claim that there are reduced gun murders.

        • Bluesman1950

          How is 59 down to 29 not a reduction?

          • OneBadStud

            Sure. What happened to the intentional homicide rate? It spiked in 2003 and leveled off. What’s the difference whether you’ve been murdered by knife, bludgeon or gun? There are other, more reliable, indicators of violent crime than the presence of a gun. You’re being obtuse.

            • Bluesman1950

              The UK intentional homicide rate only ‘spiked’ in 2003, when the crimes of mass murderer Dr Harold Shipman came to light and all his offences were counted in the same year. The 2007 London terrorist bombings caused a similar spike.

              Over recent years, the number of currently recorded homicides has shown a general downward trend and the number for the year ending March 2015 (518) was the lowest since 1983 (482).

              In the year ending March 2015, 21 homicide victims (4% of the total) were killed by shooting, 8 fewer than the previous year and the lowest number since 1980 (19 homicides).

              http://www . ons . gov . uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide#summary

              The UK homicide count did not level off after 2003. It declined steadily.

              You are being obtuse or dishonest.

              • jarhead1982

                What blueballs refuses to admit is that the actual numbers in the home office database are only those of the cases ruled upon and closed versus the actual numbers of homicides still open as evidenced in the coroners data so reality is the data is skewed by the intentional changes to the rules governing coroners reporting changed in 1998….

                • charley bigtime

                  Lol at the redneck turd who lost the argument and can’t take it.

                  • jarhead1982

                    Aw another obamabagger binky bobber chiming in saying and proving nothing

                    • charley bigtime

                      Lol at the racist turd who lost the argument and can’t take it.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Aw the race card always played by the racist bigoted left when they have nothing, which is 24/7/365

                      • charley bigtime

                        Lol at the racist turd who lost the argument and can’t take it.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Sure thing bagger

                      • charley bigtime

                        QED

                      • jarhead1982

                        ^derp

                      • charley bigtime

                        QED

                      • jarhead1982

                        Derp derp guffy

                      • charley bigtime

                        QED

                      • jarhead1982

                        derp derp derp guffy

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “jarhead1982 charley bigtime • 23 minutes ago
                        derp derp derp guffy”

                        That’s one of the most intelligent things Jarheadcase has said!

                      • charley bigtime

                        I have absolutely no doubt of that. I’m surprised people of such mentality have advanced to even that level. I think we should dangle a coors lite in front of him and see what tricks he can do for us.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Considering a known anti gunphaggit creates multiple accounts to support his own claims up vote himself and lies, one must communicate at the imbeciles intellect level to convey we are onto their pathetic smoke and bs

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Multiple accounts! Who does that remind me of? Upvotes himself . Sounds familiar! Lies without any evidence. Guess who!

                        Accuses others of being paedophiles on the run from the law. I wonder why??

                      • jarhead1982

                        We understand you are getting so upset with no one supporting your lies you created another account to support ypur lied and up vote yourself

                        That’s how all antigunphaggots portray there are more of you than the pitiful few there actually are

                      • Jeff Extreme

                        I apologize on behalf of all Americans for this imbecile jarhead and everything that he types. We aren’t all insane like him.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Thanks Jeff, I agree with that (as long as you don’t elect Trump!)

                      • charley bigtime

                        QED

                      • jarhead1982

                        QED pedo

                      • charley bigtime

                        QED

                      • jarhead1982

                        QED pedo puffer

                      • charley bigtime

                        QED.

                        I win.

                      • jarhead1982

                        QED rosebud lapper wins the chance to lick Obamas butt

                  • jarhead1982

                    Ah which split personality anti gunphaggitterd are you guffy….

                • Bluesman1950

                  Complete NRA propaganda lies. All homicides are classified as such immediately they become apparent.

                  A recorded murder can be reclassified only if there is conclusive evidence to establish that it was not actually a murder but, e.g. natural causes, or where somebody is e.g. tried for murder but acquitted on the grounds of self-defence, in which case it becomes lawful homicide and not murder.

                  take, for example the case of Harold Frederick Shipman. He was a British GP and one of the most prolific serial killers in recorded history. On 31 January 2000, a jury found Shipman guilty of 15 murders, but an inquiry after his conviction confirmed he was responsible for at least 218. The statistics record all 218 murders, not just the 15 of which he was convicted.

                  The tired old lie that the UK only records a murder when somebody is convicted has been endlessly repeated by US gun nuts, but it is as ridiculous and untrue as when it was first spewed out.

                  • jarhead1982

                    So sad when one reviews the uk coroners reports and sees that blueballs is lying, but then anti gunphaggits lie 24/7/365

                    • Bluesman1950

                      And where exactly are the “links to government cites” that you always claim to want. Show us the UK Coroners statistics which prove that unsolved killings are not classified as homicides.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Your country your problem liar

                      • Bluesman1950

                        No, your lies, your problem!

                        “So sad when one reviews the uk coroners reports and sees that blueballs is lying, but then anti gunphaggits lie 24/7/365”

                        You make a ridiculous claim, with no evidence at all. Show us the review of UK coroners reports. I doubt you have even looked at the UK Coroners statistics. I have and they give no support whatsoever to your nonsense.

                        Your lies are now so obvious that i really can’t be bothered to wast more time disproving them. What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You are dismissed liar.

                      • jarhead1982

                        You’re the one afraid to post the numbers from the UK coroners reports on homicides …

                        Why is that the data in the UK coroners report is so much higher than the home office data eh liar….

                        But hey still waiting for you to prove how removing guns from less than 1% of the law abiding population reduced violence as you infer

                        All while you refuse to provide one valid shred of proper govt cite that lawful gun owners are the problem eh liar…

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Why is that the data in the UK coroners report is so much higher than the home office data eh liar….”

                        Why is it that you can’t post any evidence that it is?

                • OneBadStud

                  You’re saying that the Labour government of Tony Blair would mislead the public? I’m shocked.

                  • Bluesman1950

                    He is, but he is, as usual, just making stuff up with nothing to support it!

              • OneBadStud

                “It declined steadily”. The US had a decade’s long crime wave that peaked in ’92. Since that time, 100,000,000 guns were added to civilian gun stocks and crime hasn’t been this low since the early sixties. You’re confusing correlation with causation. The murder rate increases and declines at the same rate of ice cream consumption. You wouldn’t say that ice cream is the cause, would you? No. I’ll say it again, there are more accurate and reliable indicators of violent crime than the mere presence of a gun. A gun in the pocket of a man going to church isn’t as dangerous as the gun in the pocket of a man going out to buy drugs.

                • Bluesman1950

                  Fotunately, in the UK, you will normally find that neither the drug pusher or church-goer are armed, so we feel even safer, even if a row breaks out over who should sit in which pew, as it did in Pennsylvania!
                  http://www . nydailynews . com/news/crime/churchgoer-killed-fight-seat-sunday-service-article-1.2618098

                  I’m sorry that you feel unable to deal with people with whose views you disagree and which you interpret as arrogance, but that is your problem, not mine.

                  • OneBadStud

                    Feelings of safety are not a substitute for arguments on policy. You’ve been unable to refute the substance of the argument with any credible statistical evidence. You’ve mislead, quibbled about inconsequential details and avoided taking on the meat of the matter, which is, gun control measures have a negligible effect on overall intentional homicide rates. As evidenced with your devolving argument with Jarhead 1982, you’ve no intention of challenging your own biases or “deal with people who’s views you disagree” in any serious manner. You want to win a flame war, not find any answers.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      We not only feel safer, we are safer. We are nearly 4 times less likely to be murdered, almost 3 times less likely to require hospital treatment for assault and over 30 times less likely to suffer a gunshot injury.

                      Check out the mass shooting tracker website. http://www . gunviolencearchive . org/reports/mass-shooting

                      So far, in the first week of August there have been 10 incidents in which 4 or more people were shot, 3 of them just yesterday, a total of 12 dead and 29 injured. In the UK just one such incident would be national headline news for weeks, sparking calls for further controls. Those cases are just the mass shootings, contributing to your average of 30 firearms homicides each day!

                      You accuse me of having “avoided taking on the meat of the matter, which is, gun control measures have a negligible effect on overall intentional homicide rates.” when it is abundantly clear that you are avoiding the meat of the matter which is that it is far easier to kill people if you have a firearm. particularly one with a large capacity and long range, than it is with anything else generally available to the civilian population.

                      The UK has never had a culture of widespread firearms ownership and the extra restrictions placed following the 3 massacres we did experience over a period of some 30 years, all committed by legal gun owners. just reduced still further the possibility of another such tragedy. In the UK, gun control works.

                      The fact that large numbers of your diverse, violent and socially strained population carry tfirearms is a recipe for the disaster that unfolds daily on your streets and in your homes.

                      • OneBadStud

                        Those rates didn’t change because of your gun control measures. Our violent crime rate was always 3-4X higher, primarily due to our “diverse, violent and socially strained population”. Exclude blacks and Hispanics from the statistics and we’re as safe as any country in Europe… Gun control measures have a negligible effect on intentional homicide rates. Culture and breeding practices have everything to do with it. Don’t your north western English or Highland Scots have higher rates of violent crime? That’s where our rednecks originated.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We have had firearms controls for over a century. The more recent ones just served to reduce the chances of one of the rare outrages even further. They are unlikely to make any difference day to day.

                        “Exclude blacks and Hispanics from the statistics and we’re as safe as any country in Europe.”
                        Exclude all our UK murderers from the statistics and we have no murders at all! That is not how statistics work however.

                        Your Blacks and Hispanics are Americans too and still your problem.

                      • OneBadStud

                        Again, you say that in the UK, gun control works. You can’t provide statistical evidence of your claim because the homicide rate was trending downward, spiked upwards and then resumed it’s downward trend. There was no measurable effect. Look at the graph, for God’s sake!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        It has worked for 100 years, with more recent refinements. 59 down to 29, no, no measurable effect!

                      • OneBadStud

                        That’s 59 to 20 gun related homicides. Again, the overall homicide rate remains untouched. I’ve got to hand it to you, you’re a rock. I’m arguing with a rock.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Gun homicides reduced by over 60% = gun laws don’t work! OK!

                      • W. S.

                        Either you are just arguing for the sake of winning the argument… or you are just plain stupid…

                        It doesn’t matter how you get killed. If you are dead, you are dead… (In fact being shot might be preferable)

                        What YOU are saying is that gun control works for gun crime…

                        What HE is saying is that murder is not reduced, just the method… Numbskull!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “What HE is saying is that murder is not reduced, just the method… Numbskull!”
                        Actually, murders have been reduced!
                        http://www . ons . gov . uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide#case-outcomes

                        The Home Office Homicide Index showed there were 518 homicides (murder, manslaughter and infanticide) in the year ending March 2015 in England and Wales. This represents a decrease of 5 offences (1%) from the 523 recorded for the previous year.
                        Over recent years, the number of currently recorded homicides has shown a general downward trend and the number for the year ending March 2015 (518) was the lowest since 1983 (482).

                        Latest figures from the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) showed that, for the offences it covers, there were an estimated 6.8 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over). This is a 7% decrease compared with the previous year’s survey, and the lowest estimate since the CSEW began in 1981

                        Gun control did not start in 1997 in the UK, but in 1903 (The Pistols Act), or 1824, (The Vagrancy Act) depending on your interpretation of ‘gun control’. That control has kept our firearms homicide rate several orders of magnitude lower than that of the USA. The very heavy penalties more recently introduced for unlawful possession of firearms have reduced the incidence of firearms crime substantially as 5 years for simple possession is not seen as worth the risk.

                        Try looking at the actual statistics, rather than flinging silly insults.

                      • OneBadStud

                        Absurd argument, one that I already addressed. The homicide rate in America has steadily declined EVEN THOUGH CIVILIANS HAVE BOUGHT 100,000,000 NEW GUNS

                      • Gray

                        So what are you saying, that it was better when the lowest number of Americans had carry permits, 1980? With a murder rate of 10.7 per 100,000?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We were safer in the UK then and we are safer now.

                      • Gray

                        So we should stop doing what has been working here to reduce crime because you feel safer over there?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You don’t have to. Do what you want. Just don’t fall, for the lie that we are less safe because we have fewer guns.

                • lee

                  A guy with a gun went to church in South Carolina… He murdered a bunch of people.

                  • OneBadStud

                    And what are the probabilities that a man goes into a church and murders a bunch of people versus a man with a gun going into a drug house, Lee? Really, answer that for me. Why would Sears and Montgomery Ward sell firearms to children if it was so dangerous to do so? Was it always this way? When my father was born, 90% of Americans regularly went to church. Homicide rates were a fraction of what they are now. When did Americans begin to believe our nation wasn’t of kith and kin but some kind of notional creation? When did individual rights come before duties and obligations?

                    • lee

                      Who cares about probability it happened. The nation was created on shii… So nothing but more shii will come. Individual rights only apply to some citizens. Most minorities don’t enjoy those rights. The nation was never equal, and therefore those duties you speak of… Don’t matter

                      • OneBadStud

                        Excuse me. I thought you were trying to make a point. Stick to sports, genius.

      • qb

        He was citing the homicide rate , not just the handgun homicide rate. You may be correct with your statistics on handguns, but if the homicides have remained unchanged, people are simply finding other ways to kill someone. A person killed by a knife is just as dead as another person killed by a pistol. So yes the ban did nothing.

        • Bluesman1950

          “In the year ending June 2015 the police recorded 569 homicides, 44 more than the previous year. This increase includes 2 months where the number of recorded homicides were relatively high. In June 2015, the police recorded 73 homicides and in November 2014, 59 homicides; compared with an average of 46 homicides per month over the last 2 years. The number of homicides recorded by the police fluctuates from year to year. Previous analysis has shown that many of the short-term fluctuations seen in the number of homicide incidents appear to arise as natural statistical variation in the data. The latest rise appears to be within the bounds of such natural variation in this series. Historically, the number of homicides increased from around 300 per year in the early 1960s to over 800 per year in the early years of this century, which was at a faster rate than population growth over that period. However, over the past decade the volume of homicides has generally decreased while the population of England and Wales has continued to grow.”
          http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/2015-10-15#violent-crime

          You again fall for the common American delusion that our homicide rates are similar and that we just use different methods. In fact Americans are murdered at around 5 times the rate, per capita, of Britons.

          Last year there were 21 shooting homicides in England and Wales (pop. 56 million) against 8,124 in the USA, (pop. 325 million 5.8 times as many). Over 66 times as many per capita in the USA.

          Even if none of those American firearms homicides had taken place and all those people were still alive, your murder rate, by other methods, would still be twice that of the UK .

          As to the use of knives, 36% of our homicides, 205, were by knife or other sharp instrument. In the USA 1544 homicides were committed with a knife or other sharp instrument.
          https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2011-2015.xls
          Given the population differences you are still about 30% more likely to be killed with a knife in the USA than the UK. Firearms are obviously the easier way to murder, since they can be used at a distance and don’t require you to get up close and personal.

          Overall, we are far less violent than the USA, even without your gun violence. It is our very long history of very low firearms ownership and our less violent nature that gives us such a low rate of firearms murders, the 1997 Act just reduced the chances of another massacre by a ‘law-abiding gun owner’ even further. The increased penalties for illegal possession make it even less likely that a criminal will be carrying a gun.

          • qb

            I wasn’t comparing homicide rates in the UK to rates in the US. Thats a discussion for a different time. I was merely pointing to the article which shows the ban on handguns did not effect homicide rates. I suppose if we change the data we would reach a different conclusion. But the data Mr. King used support his claim.

            • Bluesman1950

              The ban on legal handguns had little effect on our already low overall homicide rates because they were not what were generally used to commit homicides, there being so few around in the UK. We were, however, reluctant to await the next classroom massacre by a legal gun owner, so that was reason enough to get rid of them.

              • qb

                Because the only way to annihilate kids in a classroom is with a firearm? The worst school mass murder in the US was by car bomb driven into a school. Is that reason enough to ban cars?

                • Bluesman1950

                  Google, ‘US school shootings’, it’s certainly the prefered American way!

                  • qb

                    No doubt it would be, especially when you stipulate the search with the word “SHOOTINGS” !

                    • Bluesman1950

                      Ok, try ‘murders’ or ‘mass murders’. See what difference it makes!

                      • qb

                        September 11, 2001

                      • Bluesman1950

                        What school was attacked on September 11 2001?
                        Was there a school in the Twin Towers, or Pentagon grounds?

                        You seem to want to focus on spectacular events like 9/11 in order to distract from the daily slaughter in the USA. Terrorism in the USA has killed an average of around 190 people per year in this century. Americans with guns murder over 8000 per year.

                      • qb

                        What is the daily slaughter in american schools? Out of the 8000, how many are from mass school shootings? I’m quite sure its much less than even your 190 figure for terrorism which is an obviously bogus number since 9 11 alone would exceed that number when averaged. I know why Brits don’t use guns , they prefer to simply argue people to death!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        If you check the link you will see that there have been over 180 US school shootings so far this century. Tell me how many there have been in the UK this century.

                        So far this year 584 children under 12 have ben shot in the USA. How many in the UK?

                        “your 190 figure for terrorism which is an obviously bogus number since 9 11 alone would exceed that number when averaged”
                        2996 were killed on 9/11. Averaged over 16 years that is 187 per annum. A few domestic terrorism attacks push the average a little over 190.

                        “I know why Brits don’t use guns , they prefer to simply argue people to death!”
                        Yes, all those pesky facts we keep quoting! Funnily enough, nobody has ever died as I argued with them. My words are obviously less lethal than firearms. Perhaps that is why our murder rate is only 20% of yours.

                      • qb

                        I’ve gotta hand it to you, you are persistent. And when the subject matter doesn’t fit your argument you simply alter the subject. School shooting statistics are ridiculously inflated by altering the definition to be any gun fired even accidentally on any campus, even colleges. And includes suicide and for all I know, target practice, seven gun salutes and the cannon at the football game.
                        But that’s not the point nor the focus of the article . You have made it clear you disagree with King , but his argument is much more convincing and is based on unbiased figures, unlike your cherry picked stats designed to fit the particular agenda. We disagree and I suspect always will.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “cherry picked stats”

                        UK 21 firearms homicides in 2015.

                        USA 8,124 firearms homicides in 2015.

                        Do you have any better statistics?

                      • qb

                        Apples and oranges , the article has nothing to do with the difference in crime rates between the US and the UK . You are well aware of this ,yet continue to harp upon it since it’s clear the ban had no effect in the UK, you keep trying to credid it for the difference between the two countries. There are many factors which dictate the difference, but the article looks at the effect a ban has in each individual country, before and after a ban. The results are consistent, regardless of the country. Banning guns does not reduce homicide rates. The genie is out of the bottle anyway, and we are arguing a mute point. The key is to change the culture and try to eliminate poverty among all segments of society where violence now prevails. Not pass more worthless restrictive laws just to make some feel like they’re making a difference.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Apples and oranges indeed!

                        “The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003”

                        The article clearly seeks to link the two unconnected facts of the handgun ban and the subsequent increase in homicide, whilst ignoring the further subsequent decline later.

                        “Banning guns does not reduce homicide rates.”
                        In countries already awash with them, perhaps not. In the UK only 0.1% of the population had legally owned handguns, the other 99.9% didn’t.

                        “In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.”
                        The implication that the 1997 ban was an ‘experiment’ in a country where 99.9% didn’t possess handguns anyway is just dishonest nonsense.

                        It was not the final ban that made any great difference to our persistent homicide rate, but the fact that hardly anybody had guns in the first place. The 1997 ban was just plugging a loophole which had allowed legal gun owners who had become unhinged to murder innocent people with impunity.

                        What keeps down the homicide rate is the absence of guns.

                      • qb

                        Only 1% of the UK population owned a firearm before the ban was implemented? That’s hard to believe, and it’s even harder to believe a ban would be necessary for a problem which did not exist.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Only 1% of the UK population owned a firearm before the ban was implemented? That’s hard to believe,…”
                        Not 1%. 0.1%, one in a thousand, owned handguns legally.
                        I know that it is hard for an American to believe, but it is true. Nobody in my family and nobody I knew until I joined the police ever possessed a handgun outside military service.

                        Our history and culture are very different from yours and the expectation of carrying a sidearm or any weapon for self-defence is not part of our mindset. In a country where violence and homicide, much of it committed with guns, are so prevalent your views are obviously conditioned by the dangers you face from your fellow citizens.

                        There are around 2 million firearms licensed in the UK, but they are almost entirely for professional use, e.g. farmer’s shotguns, deer rifles, vermin control .22’s etc. We have never carried firearms for self-defence widely and such possession had not been generally permitted since 1936.

                        “it’s even harder to believe a ban would be necessary for a problem which did not exist.”
                        There was, a problem, We had 2 mass shootings,Hungerford and Dunblane both committed by legal gun owners who went off the rails. They were enough of a problem for us to decide that the rights of people walking the streets and a classroom full of children not to be slaughtered trumped the rights of people to keep guns as a hobby.

                        2 mass shootings might not be enough of a problem to convince Americans, but they convinced us.

                • Bluesman1950

                  “Because the only way to annihilate kids in a classroom is with a firearm? The worst school mass murder in the US was by car bomb driven into a school. Is that reason enough to ban cars?”

                  If you are referring to the Bath School disaster, the main death toll was actually caused by explosives, detonated by timer, concealed in the building. The subsequent explosion of his truck, which killed the murderer and several others, was detonated by him, using a rifle.
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

                  That aside, even if you had been right about the car bomb aspect, would that be a justification for banning cars, or trucks? Were trucks banned after McVeigh killed 168 people in Oklahoma City? If not, why not?

                  How well would US society function without cars or trucks? Do they have a function other than blowing up schools? I think that the USA, like any developed society, would grind to a complete halt if, by some magic, all cars and trucks were to disappear.

                  Imagine that same magic suddenly removed all guns from society. Would you see a massive increase in drive-by stranglings and stabbings. Would someone beat to death nearly 50 people in a nightclub? Might the reduced ability of an individual to kill great numbers rapidly at a distance actually cause your horrendous murder rate to fall?

                  Pure fantasy I know! You will never get rid of your guns any more than we want to get rid of the laws that protect us from the worst excesses of an armed society like yours.

                  We will have to live with being accused of being ‘slaves’ and ’emasculated’ by people who are so obviously unsure of their manhood that they think that they are eunuchs if they haven’t got a gun to establish their virility. You, on the other hand, will have to live with your daily slaughter, occasionally punctuated by really spectacular massacres.

                  I know which prospect concerns me more.

                  • qb

                    I of course was not serious when I asked about banning automobiles, just making a point that there are virtually endless ways in which humans can annihilate each other, and that’s the point of the entire discussion. You apparently reject the fact that trying to eliminate firearms has no effect on the homicide rate. Even though it obviously has an effect upon the homicide rate by firearms. People still find a way to kill regardless of the method. You can choose to disagree, and people on each side of the issue can continue to twist data to suit their agenda but it won’t negate this cold hard reality. You are absolutely correct when you acknowledge we will never rid the world of firearms. Thats a fact , but even if it were possible, the problem if humans killing each other would not change.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      So, why do Americans kill each other 5 times as often as Britons do?

                      • qb

                        Well one obvious one would be hijacking a jet airliner and flying it into a highrise building. Beyond that , diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate seems to be relatively effective. Then there’s plowing into a crowd of people with an automobile, also setting fire to buildings with gasoline or any highly flammable fuel, any number of homemade bombs in which materials can be purchased at home depot, also a number of weapons which can be easily constructed using high air pressure air, which are accurate and deadly. Pipe bombs are also effective, Should I go on?
                        To believe that we are magically going to stop any kind of murder, by attempting to eliminate the availability of firearms, is naive, delusional, and frankly laughable.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        How many Americans kill people by hijacking aircraft? How many murder by driving vehicles into crowds, arson or making pipe bombs? Focusing on rare events like that and ignoring your daily slaughter with guns is just burying your head in the sand.

                        Of course the USA is not going to get rid of its guns. Their status in American mythology and the paranoid fear of being unarmed whilst all around you the mad and bad have guns is sufficient to keep you wedded to them. However your ludicrous assertion that unarmed Americans will turn to hijacking aircraft, arson or making bombs in order to keep up your horrendous murder rate is the delusional and laughable view.

                      • qb

                        Ok, I’m sure you are correct , Oh Wise One, if there was only a way to rid society if firearms, people would be unable to kill each other. ” it would simply be virtually impossible! Thanks for your invaluable wisdom. You’re a lifesaver.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Well they wouldn’t be able to shoot each other, which would account for 60% of American homicides. But you think they would start crashing planes into buildings as an alternative? Who is the fool? Try murdering 60 people in a nightclub with a knife or a baseball bat and see if it is so easy.

                        I don’t recall saying that getting rid of all firearms would eliminate all murders. That is just a strawman argument from you. What it would do is make murdering people more difficult.

                        I agree,as I have said before, that getting firearms out of American society is impossible. You are too reliant on them for your feelings of safety and too paranoid about your fellow countrymen to let go of the legal ones. Your criminals are already as well armed as your police and law-abiding citizens. You just have to accept that death by the gun is a regular and inevitable part of US life.

                        What I don’t like is Americans pretending that our gun laws make us less safe than you.

        • Mike Breen

          “”but if the homicides have remained unchanged, people are simply finding other ways to kill someone.””

          Wrong conclusion based on the false belief that the few banned legally owned guns in the UK, that were already strictly controlled and NOT allowed to be kept for self defence, were being used to kill people in the first place. Dunblane massacre aside, they were not.

          You use what was basically a tweak to already tight UK guns laws that effected virtually nobody to prove that controlling mass gun ownership with a presumption of being able to defend your self with them in the USA will not reduce murders.

          This is of course a nonsense.

          • qb

            It wasn’t my conclusion. It was Mr. Kings conclusion, and the data he presented fully supported that conclusion. We can argue forever about types of bans and strictness of bans and laws, but the bottom line in this discussion is that this ban had no effect on homicide rates.

          • qb

            Mike his data supported his conclusion in multiple countries not just the UK.

    • Typical

      Guns make it easier to cause mass violence.
      Can’t recall the last time someone with a nice went into a gay club and knifed 100 people killing 50 can you?
      No guns and no mass shootings or mass killing sprees in the scale and frequency as to where there is access to guns.
      Prove me wrong.

      • jarhead1982

        Like the japanese moron killing 19 and injuring over 30 last week with a knife, do tell….. KNIVES CAUSE VIOLENCE

        KNIVES REALLY CAUSE VIOLENCE IN CHINA

        June 3 1982, Li Chihang 5 dead 43 injured Shamshiupo Hong Kong

        July 10 1995 DongChi 2 dead 16 injured Meihikou China

        Apr 1 1996 WangXiangjun 7 Dead 5 injured Meitian China

        Aug 1998 Lu Xiaoxi 2 dead 15 injured Henan China

        Sep 14 1998 Lin Peiging 23 injured Hejiang County China

        Nov 26 , 2002 Shi Ruoqi 5 killed 2 injured Huaji Cnty China

        Mar 7, 2003 Xie Zhongcai, 24, 8 injured Beihai China

        Sep 11,2004 YangGuozhu ,28 injured Suzhou China

        Sep 20, 2004 Jia Qingyo, 25 injured Ying County China

        Sep 30, 2004 Liu Hongwen 4 dead 12 injured Linwu County China

        Aug 4, 2004 Xu 1 dead, 7 injured Beijing China

        Nov 26, 2004 Yan Yamming 9 dead 3 injured Ruzhou China

        Dec. 3, 2004 Liu Zhigang 12 injured Panshi China

        Oct 12, 2005 Liu Shibing 18 injured Liudong China

        May 8 2006 Bai Ningyang 12 dead 5 injured Shiguan China

        May 24, 2006 Yang Xinlong 35, 2 dead 2 injured Louying China

        Jun 13, 2007 Su Qianxiao 42, 1 dead 3 inured Chiling China

        Jul 20, 2007 Quyang Songde 19 injured Foshan China

        Sept 13, 2007 Kuang Xi 28, 1 dead 5 injured Hengyang China

        Mar 3 2009, Xu Ximei 40, 2 dead 4 injured Mazhan China

        March 23, 2010 Zheng Minsheng The Nanping school massacre 8 killed 5 wounded

        Apr 13, 2010 Yang Jiaqin 40, 2 dead 5 injured Xichang China

        Apr 28, 2010 Chen Kangbing Hongfu Primary School 17 injured Leihzhou China

        Apr 29, 2010 Yuan Zhangxuan 17 injured Dangchang County China

        Apr 29, 2010 Xu Yuyuan 32 injured Taixing China

        Apr 30, 2010 WangYonglai 45, 1 dead 6 injured Weifang China

        May 12, 2010 Wu Huanming, 48, 10 killed 11 injured Hanzhong, Shaanxi

        August 3 2010 Fang Jiantang 3 killed 16 injured Zibo, Shandong province China

        Aug 29, 2011 woman 30 8 injured Shanghai China

        Sept 14, 2011 WangHongbin, 4 dead 2 injured Gongyi China

        Aug 2, 2012 Xinhua teenager killed 9 people and wounded 4-

        Sept 21, 2012 Guangxi. Wu Yechang An ax-wielding man killed 3 wounded 13

        Dec 14, 2012 Min Yongiun Chenpeng China 24 injured

        Dec 16, 2012 Suthat Wannasarn 3 dead

        March 8 2013 Xianjiang, 4 killed 11 injured at shopping mall

        May 22, 2013 6 students & teacher wounded in a cleaver attack after school

        June 7, 2013, BEIJING — Chinese man set a fire on a commuter bus Xiamen, leaving 47 people dead including himself, Chinese state media reported. 34 injured.

        June 20, 2013 Another accidental explosion, hmmm, really?

        June 28, 2013 Chinese officials say 36 people were killed after a fight broke out during a police investigation of suspected criminals in the latest act of violence in the restive northwest province of Xinjiang

        July 29, 2013 Shenzen Province 3 dead 3 injured

        July 2013 Henan Province 5 dead, 3 injured

        July 2013 Guangxi 2 dead

        July 31, 2013 Hong Kong 11 injured

        Aug 26 2013 Beijing 1 dead 3 wounded, all knives, hmm!

        Sept 23, 2013 Hunan Province, Changsha Hospital 3 injured

        November 6, 2013 china-explosions-

        July29, 2014 Xinjiang Dozens killed and wounded

        Sept 1, 2014 China Dongfang Primary School in Hubei province, 3 killed 6 wounded

        Nov 20, 2014, Bedaihe China, Military Clinic, 7 dead

        October 27, 2013 BEIJING (Reuters) – 2 men from Muslim-dominated Xinjiang on Tuesday after three people suspected to be from the restive region drove a SUV into a crowd at Tiananmen Square and set it on fire.

        • Typical

          Have you turned into the gun nut equivalent of black lives matter?
          #knives Cause Violence.
          Newsflash mate. Guns cause violence too. Shh, don’t tell anyone.
          China isn’t the us.
          The us holds itself above everyone else.
          Thinks it’s the beacon of hope and all that’s right.
          The world standard and other American rhetoric that isn’t true.
          So you can compare apples to oranges but China is a very oppressed society that hasn’t caught up to modern day and the us is a modern day society that has education for all (but only used by some) access to knowledge and years of stumbling and rising to find out what is right and what is wrong.
          Which one has the bigger gun crime problem?
          Which one has a mass shooting epidemic?
          Which one has a gun crime problem so big that since jfk was assassinated more people have been killed on its streets by guns than all the soldiers in every war America has ever been in?
          Which has a gun crime problem so big that its neighbour Canada with probably more guns per head has fat far fewer deaths or injuries.
          I expect to be given ‘stats’ on battle axe deaths of the 13th century to prove why battle axes are dangerous, as if we didn’t know, and mass shootings are a-ok in America.
          In the rest of the world bad but in America no problem.

          • jarhead1982

            SMH, they are gun ban paradise, so guess all that violent schiite happens without guns…..kinda destroys your pathetic rants….

            Also rather sorry for you moron, as you never do post the video of a gun loading, aiming, and pulling its own trigger or admit youre bat schiite crazy inferring GUNS ARE ALIVE AND CAUSE VIOLENCE, but please do keep on proving your insanity by just squealing in impotent rage as you always do…..

            • Typical

              You walked right into my trap.
              I knew you’d say something along the lines of me thinking guns are alive.
              You do realise that I used your words against you so you must’ve been inferring that knives are alive with you anti knife (but oddly pro gun violence) crusade.
              More projecting your insanity.
              Look at the post you make and how often.
              Prudent insane gun nut

              • jarhead1982

                Since all you anti gun terrorists do is blame the inanimate object it’s obvious you do

            • Typical

              You’ve resorted to ad hominem and personal attacks.
              If you had an argument and if I hadn’t stumped you you wouldn’t need to resort to those tactics but instead would counter my points.
              Think about that.

              • jarhead1982

                Since facts logic and reality don’t penetrate that empty skull of yours one must climb down one million rungs of evolutionary ladder to communicate in a fashion your negative IQ intellect can comprehend, mission successful liar

                • Typical

                  You’re doing everything to avoid talking about the topic at hand instead resorting to personal attacks.
                  Very telling

        • Typical

          I see the bodies of two teens that were shot was found today.
          A single bullet in the head of both of them.
          Must be a day that ends in y.
          Obviously if they had been stabbed it would’ve been worse.
          Bet they were glad they was only shot right?
          Thankfully they had the right to bear arms and guns are plentiful to save themselves.
          That really helped them.

          • jarhead1982

            Yeah, horrible how leftist thuggstas like you are left to roam free and kill like that eh…..

            • Typical

              Leftist thugs?
              That’s very right wing of you.
              How very national socialist

              • jarhead1982

                Sorry since USDOJ data proves 30% of the population not white commit 87% of all the violent crimes and that 30% votes 95% demokrap, it is what it is thuggsta

                • Typical

                  What are you talking about now?
                  I never mentioned people’s son colour or rates of crime committed per race.
                  Are you grasping at straws to win any argument even if you’re arguing with yourself or are you having a meltdown?

                  • jarhead1982

                    Aw we see you’re to illiterate to comprehend where the logic and facts are derived for assigning the proper descriptor of the violent proclivity of a subset of our culture ( violent thuggsta Demokraps = lefties like you) sucks to be you thuggsta

                    • Typical

                      I’m not a yank.
                      I’m not a democrat.
                      Pisses all over your nonsense.
                      Using a thesaurus and pusedo-science does not make you clever as your words show.
                      So where will you turn the conversation in desperation now…

                • Bluesman1950

                  Neither of those unsupported assertions true, but never mind, nothing new!

                  • jarhead1982

                    Aw, so you got nothing, as always…

      • jarhead1982

        WHOOPS PROVED YOU A LIAR YET AGAIN, typikal

        Hey, lets review how many mass shootings in gun free paradises we have eh!

        Location Number killed Date



        Garissa University Kenya 147 4/2/2015

        Pakistan Military school 142 12/15/14

        Paris France 128 11/14/15

        Norway attacks 77 7/22/2011


        Westgate Mall, Nairobi Kenya 67 9/21/2013


        Grozny Chechnya 60 2/5/2000

        Gyeongsagnam-do, South Korea 57 4/27/1982


        Agricultural College, Potiskum Nigeria 50 9/29/2013


        Boipatong S Africa 45 6/17/1992

        Ayotzinapa teaching college, Iguala Mexico 43 September 26, 2014

        Yobe State Boarding School Nigeria 42 2/25/14

        Zhaodong China 42 11/18/1995

        Port Aurthur, Australia 35 4/28/1996

        Marikana S Africa 34 8/16/2012

        VA Tech 33 4/16/2007


        Bacha Khan University Charsadda Pakistan 30 1/20/16

        Cave of the Patriarchs, Hebron Israel 29 2/24/1994


        Bisho, Ciskei, S Africa 29 7/9/1992

        Sandy Hook 28 12/14/2012


        Tunisia 28 6/26/15

        Kampala Uganda 26 6/26/1994

        Offa, Karwa Nigeria 26 12/21/2013

        Mubi Adamawa Nigeria 25 10/3/2012

        Luby’s Cafeteria 24 10/16/1991


        Beijing China 23 9/20/1994

        Splendid Hotel Ougadougou Burkina Faso 23 1/16/2016

        Taizz Yemen 22 3/25/1994

        San Ysidro Massacre 22 7/18/1984

        Tunis Tunisia 21 3/18/2015

        Aureti Uganda 21 4/15/1983

        Igbo Town Hall meeting Adamawa Nigeria 20 
1/7/2012

        Mogadishu Somalia 20 1/22/2016

        Baluchistan Pakistan 20 04/11/2015

        Dhaka Bangladesh 20 7/1/2016

        Johannesburg S Africa 19 3/28/1994

        Dunblane, Scotland 18 3/13/1996


        Erfurt, Germany 18 4/26/2002


        Trincomalee Sri Lanka 17 8/4/2006

        Hungerford, UK 17 8/19/1987


        Cuers, France 17 Sep-95


        Nshii Rwanda 17 11/6/1995

        Kandahar, Afghanistan 16 3/11/2012


        Texas Tower Sniper 16 8/1/1966


        Winnenden, Germany 16 3/11/2009


        Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal 15 12/6/1989


        Columbine High 15 4/20/1999


        Edmond, OK 15 8/20/1986


        Zug, Switzerland 15 9/27/2001


        Meet Al Attar Egypt 15 8/21/2013

        Yueyang & Xima China 15 11/18/2004

        Dayukou China 14 10/26/2001

        Aramoana, New Zealand 14 11/13/1990


        Binghampton, NY 14 4/3/2009

        Luxiol, France 14 Jul-89


        Kamwenge Uganda 14 12/26/1994

        Fort Hood 13 11/5/2009


        Cumbria, England 13 6/2/2010


        Buenos Aires Argentina 13 6/20/1973

        Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 13 4/7/2011

        Velika Ivanca, Serbia 13, 4/8/2013

        Allaipiddy Sri Lanka 13 5/13/2006

        Bahir Dar Ethiopia 12 5/15/2013

        Liuhe & Tonghua China 12 9/24/2006

        Bamako, Mali 12 8/8/2015

        Aurora, CO 12 7/20/2012


        Azerbaijan State Oil Academy 12 4/30/2009


        Paris France 12 1/7/2015

        Emsdetten Germany 11 11/6/2006

        Cologne Germany 11 6/11/1964

        Cape Town SAfrica 11 7/25/1993

        East London S Africa 11 2/9/2002

        Chassarda Pakistan 10 4/5/2015

        McClendon, AL 10 3/10/2009


        Kauhajoki, Finland 10 9/23/2008


        GMAC, FL 10 6/18/1990

        Bait-al-Aqari Yemen 10 5/30/2008


        Red Lake, MN 10 3/21/2005


        Adelaide, Australia 10 9/6/1991

        Lyon France 10, 3/19/2009


        Siakago Kenya 10 11/6/2010

        Pakele & Gogonya Uganda 10 3/9/2013

        Nanterre France 9 2/27/2002

        Port Harcourt Nigeria 9 4/4/2015

        Jerusalem, Israel 9 6/6/2008

        Maiduguri, Nigeria 9 6/8/2013

        Tatarstan Russia 9 5/4/1992

        Uhersky Brod Czechozlovakia 9 2/24/15

        Seapoint S Africa 9 1/20/2003

        Ladysmith S Africa 9 1/20/1992

        Murisuvil Sri Lanka 8 12/20/2000

        Toulouse/Mounteban, France 8 3/11/12 to 3/21/12

        Mor Hungary 8 5/9/2002

        Edmonton Canada 8 12/30/14

        Sana’a, Yemen 8 3/30/1997

        Auchi Nigeria 7 11/27/2012

        Tuusula Finland 7 11/7/2007

        Naples Italy 7 9/18/2009

        Turin Italy 7 10/15/2002

        Gomarankadawala Sri Lanka 6 4/23/2006

        Alphen aan den Rijn Netherlands 6 4/9/2011

        Liege Belgium 6 12/13/2011 (125 wounded)

        Pesalai Sri Lanka 6 6/17/2006

        Belgorod Russia 6 4/22/2013

        Moscow Russia 6 12/11/2012

        Belgrade Serbia 5 7/1/2016

        Berlin Switzerland 5 5/10/2015

        Touluse France 5 3/19/2012

        Moscow Russia 5 11/7/ 2012

        Moscow oblast 5 12/4/2013

        Gangwon Province S Korea 5 6/21/14

        Brussels Belgium 4 5/27/2014

        Tours France 4 10/29/2001

        Espoo Finland 4 12/31/2009

        Carmen de Patagones, Argentina 4 9/28/2004

        Beirut, Lebanon 4 1/25/2007

        GROSSPRIEL, Austria 4 9/18/2013

        Balashinka Russia 4 4/23/2007 (home made pistol)

        Ottawa CA 4 1/22/2016

        Bamrungsart Pondock Scool Thailand 3 Mar 18, 2007

        Nenzig Austria 3 5/22/2016

        Aarhus Denmark 3 4/5/1994

        Liege Belgium 3 12/13/2011

        Rotterdam Netherlands 3 4/11/2009

        Freising Germany 3 2/19/2002

        Geneva Switzerland 3 2/17/2013

        Daillon Switzerland 3 1/3/2013

        SeeJong City S Korea 3 2/25/15

        Gothenburg Sweden 2 3/19/2015

        Dawson College shooting, Quebec Canada 2 9/13/2006

        Café shooting Sydney Australia 2 12/15/14

        Bucharest Romania 2 3/5/2012

        Montessori Daycare Quebec Canada 1, April 15, 2013

        W. R. Myers High School in Taber, Alberta, Canada 1 April 28, 1999

        The world 2,157 dead in 124 incidents = 17.395 dead per

        Why is it the average number of dead in mass shootings in gun free zones in the world, is higher than in the US….hmmmmm

        Funny how this is only the tip of the iceberg for all those mass shootings in all those gun ban paradises eh!

        If we included all the mass attacks in those gun ban paradises where guns were not used…..its rather frightening how VIOLENT those gun ban paradises truly are…….

        Based on you anti gunterds claims guns are the root cause of violence, and those countries have 1/7th the number of guns we do, then why aren’t your incidents and deaths not 1/7th of the US eh MORONS?

        A quick perusal by even the most numerically challenged shows that the US only has 3 of the top 25 shootings. And out of the top 36 we only account for 11 incidents and 17.3% of the dead.

        • Typical

          You have issues.
          But well done for avoiding the issue and not responding to the points made instead desperately trying to move the discussion onto stunting else not relevant that you’ve cherry picked to answer a question no-one asked that had no relevance.
          How many mass shootings does the us have compared to other countries?
          I echoey you to avoid this like you avoided my last post and come up with some irrelevant wall of text about how many British soldiers shot Germans in WW2 or something else unrelated.
          You should be a politician.

          • jarhead1982

            Youre a proven pathological liar, end of story

            • Typical

              How? How am I a proven pathological liar?
              You haven’t proven anything and I suspect you have no idea what a pathological liar is though you’ll be off to Google to find out so you can act like you do.

              • jarhead1982

                You support gun control, which is a lie as it never reduces violence and all anti gunphaggits claim it does, end of story

                • Typical

                  It reduces gun violence and mass murders as proven by the reduction in gun crime and mass murders.
                  And suicide.
                  So it does reduce violence as proven.
                  End of discussion

    • PatBryanTX2

      Presumptuous falsified garbage.

      • OneBadStud

        I verified the author’s statistics, myself.

        • Jeff Extreme

          please share

    • Bob_Hearns

      Well, the article is wrong about Australia. I checked various sources. I’m not going to bother with the others. Another article filled with misinformation
      .

    • Peter Stevens

      Realistically speaking isn’t most gun violence just gangsters killing gangsters? It may sound callous but are thugs and criminals killing each other in itself really that big of an issue? These aren’t the kind of upstanding citizens who have jobs, raise well-adjusted children, and contribute to the overall health and well-being of society.

      • tedb120

        yup…….But for Obama its reason to take your guns and if HRC is elected it will happen….

        • smartalek

          America’s rightwing nutjobs — delusional, ineducable, and stubborn as mules.
          Obama was “going to take our guns,” and of course never did.
          So now Hillary’s “going to take our guns.”
          And when she doesn’t, in the eight years of her Presidency, it will be the next “Democrap” who’s “going to take our guns.”
          Most gullible creatures on the planet — and now they’re all voting for one of the very people who have exported their jobs to Mexico, China, and the rest of the east!
          It’s a minor miracle that these people can even dress themselves every day.

      • Just need to get the good people out and then wall the thugs in and let them take care of the rest. When the dust clears, bulldoze and rebuild!

      • Bluesman1950

        “Realistically speaking isn’t most gun violence just gangsters killing gangsters?”

        Maybe most, but by no means all.

        http://www . gunviolencearchive .org/reports/child-injured-killed

    • Gremlin Le

      Here is theory I read from book on why crime dropped dramatically. Some might find this highly offensive but think of Roe vs Wade and the legalization of abortion. I’m not going to detail why poverty and crime correlate but you get the idea.

    • DutchS

      Pretty much all gun murderers display precursory violence first. So here’s the plan. No registry. No restrictions of weapons or magazines. BUT, commit any act of aggression, no matter how trivial, and you lose your right to own a gun. Domestic violence, child abuse, animal abuse, stalking, vandalism, road rage, drunk and disorderly, and of course any crime whatsoever, your guns are history. They constitute grounds for a search warrant to find and take your guns. And we punch a hole in your ID so everyone knows not to sell to you. Commit a gun crime and you’re history.

      But keep your nose clean, keep your temper, and keep your hands off other people, and you can have enough weapons to outfit a battalion if you want. And zero paperwork. Nobody needs to know. What could be fairer?

      • OneBadStud

        Most of those are felonies and being convicted of a felony is an automatic forfeiture of gun rights in any state.

    • lhecker51

      “If you want to change society, you have to actually change the whole of society.”

      True. The problem is we are going the way of the Roman Empire. The train has left the station and is now at top speed and cannot stop in time to avoid the collapse of the rule of law without immediate action that our leaders do not have the stomach nor the backbone to take that action until it is too late.

      I have not only read about what happens to the weakest and most vulnerable during a collapse of society, I have witnessed it first hand as a member of multinational peacekeeping forces. They bleed the most.

      Knowing these facts, I can neither confirm nor deny that I have taken common sense and rational precautions to defend myself and family and can sustain for two years.

      When one needs the means to defend ones self, it is already too late. Collapse of the rule of law happens in some cases in a matter of hours, in others, a matter of days. In hindsight, history has proven there were MANY signs of the impending collapse, yet still people either did not have the means to prepare or thought the government would protect them. For a significant number of them, that assumption proved fatal.

      If one considers themselves a rational and critical thinker, they would be left with tow options:

      Prepare or not to prepare.

      To prepare and the crisis never materializes, you lose nothing.

      To not prepare and the crisis materializes, it could be a fatal mistake.

    • Let’sBeFriends

      a) I didn’t abandon anything, I noted it as a amusing aside but I never presented it as a main reason of anything.

      b1) Except nothing in that chart proves the crack epidemic bottoming out didn’t play a part in the drastic drop of crime at all, it still in fact shows the steep drop at the time of it winding down and Clinton’s bill pumping more resources into law enforcement.
      b2) Homicides are lowest since the 1960s, not a century; while overall gun crime has remained static for the past couple of decades and suicides are up.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6d0739db531dbed41ef10d6e60c26e304e9ac0ecc81249f18cf79948c9f5b59e.png

      Nice try though.

      And again, mass shootings still have increased. I didn’t even cite whatever study you’re talking about, since there’s many that come to the same conclusion drawing from multiple sources:
      http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44126.pdf
      http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/mass-shootings-have-become-more-common-in-the-u-s/

      And not only are they happening with more frequency, but the USA just came out of the worst mass shooting EVER. But everything is fine because gun crime is “low” and Breitbart says so!

      But sure, every person and their dog being armed is totally what stopped gun related crime in countries like Australia. Except wait, no, that’s not how it happened at all.
      Regardless, the main problem is that arms are still finding their ways into the hands of citizens who are not law abiding. I don’t believe a total gun ban could ever be implement, but more rationale legislation so that you can’t have someone who’s on a terrorist watch list get an assault rifle to mow down dozens of people within a short time span.

      Also LOL homeboy is a racial slur now? Could you be any more obvious trying to go for a cheap emotional point score after being solidly riposted? Please don’t debase yourself.

    • Matt

      I wonder how much the decrease in murder rate is due to gang bangers running out of other gang bangers to kill?

      • RubyMontana

        That’s worth some statistical analysis!

    • Let’sBeFriends

      “First off, violence started increasing in the mid-60’s, long before crack.”

      a) I’m not saying the crack epidemic was a sole factor, I’m saying it was one of them. Nothing can be distilled down to one singular factor, anyone trying to do so is a disingenuous idiot.
      b) You’re looking at the completely wrong part of the chart. It doesn’t matter when violence started, this is about what made it begin to decrease. Look at where it dips dramatically – the mid 90’s.

      “Many argue that the meth and heroin epidemics we experience today are far worse than crack ever was. “

      The difference between meth and crack is that meth is far more cheaper which is why it took the wind out of crack’s sails in the 90’s. Will meth and heroin get to such bad levels on terms of users? Potentially, but it won’t ever be as bad on a law enforcement level.

      “Yet our homicide rate is the lowest in over 50 years.”

      Just because something drops from being astronomically high, that doesn’t mean it’s objectively low. ‘The rate of which I pick my nose is the lowest it’s been in 30 years since I was a kid, but I still pick my nose regularly.’

      And while the gun homicide and violence rate may be static (while suicides are up), mass shootings have still tripled in the last 5 years:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/02906e9ba8151389bef3c940ba92b0c0e2c7ee651453c26aab3806735e0ea401.png

      “The only possible conclusion is more guns does not lead to more crime – it may, in fact, discourage criminals to know many more of their potential victims may be armed.”

      Homeboy, police officers got sniped literally days ago.

      • jarhead1982

        And all you have is conjecture and wishful thinking (oxymoron for anti gun phaggits as they haven’t a brain) as always

    • tedb120

      the FACT is “gun crime” has been dropping in the US since the 80s and most of it is now in places where you could not even legally own a gun

      • Corruption_Eruption

        Lol, like Chicago? DC? The FACT is Chiraq (more likely to get shot in Chicago than Iraq) has the strictest gun laws in the country and has the highest violent firearm crime rate. Give it a rest.

        • tedb120

          I agree…and yet the gun grab idiots try to tell us its the local guns that are legal that make a difference…total BS of course

        • tedb120

          If Hillary is elected we can kiss our gun rights goodbye….

          here is Obama on the 2nd and HRC agrees.

          Obama quote

          “We know that other countries, in response to one mass shooting, have been able to craft laws that almost eliminate mass shootings. Friends of ours, allies of ours — Great Britain, Australia, countries like ours. So we know there are ways to prevent it.”

          http://hotair.com/archives/201

          UK gun confiscation that Obama wants for the USA – here is how the UK did it

          “Rifles and pistols have been individually registered as such on personal Firearm Certificates in Britain since 1920, and magazine-fed shotguns with a capacity over three shots since 1988. Firearm Certificates, giving individual permission to possess specific serial numbered weapons, are subject to renewal by the police every five years (formerly every three years). At renewal, the police may make individual judgements about which particular firearms an owner will be allowed to retain, on the basis of recorded regularity of use, etc.

          When the 1997 ban was implemented, the police had a complete list of every licensed pistol: unless one exported the weapon (and could prove it) or could satisfy the police that one had somehow destroyed it, one had no option but to hand it in. Every holder of licensed pistols received a letter from his local police authority, detailing when and where his registered weapons were to be surrendered. I rather doubt that many copies of those letters are still extant, and I cannot offer other references for what happened because it was simply not a matter for discussion: it was the obvious and inevitable way the system worked.”
          http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

          • Bluesman1950

            Which is probably why you are 36 times less likely to be shot in the UK than the USA (and that ratio does take into account our differing population sizes!).

            • tedb120

              and why break ins at night are 9 X more likely

              no armed homeowner to fear….

              • Bluesman1950

                Sorry, another NRA myth! You are about 50% more likely to suffer burglary in the USA than the UK

                United Kingdom:

                “The police record an offence of burglary if a person enters any building as a trespasser and with intent to commit an offence of theft, GBH or unlawful damage. Aggravated burglary occurs when the burglar is carrying a firearm, imitation firearm, offensive weapon or explosive.” (UGHOCS, page 26, paragraph 9.)

                United States:

                “The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines burglary as the unlawful entry of a structure to commit a felony or theft. To classify an offense as a burglary, the use of force to gain entry need not have occurred. The UCR Program has three subclassifications for burglary: forcible entry, unlawful entry where no force is used, and attempted forcible entry. The UCR definition of “structure” includes apartment, barn, house trailer or houseboat when used as a permanent dwelling, office, railroad car (but not automobile), stable, and vessel (i.e., ship).” (FBI – CUS – Burglary)

                UK burglary incidences: 258,148 (THOSB – CEW page 73, paragraph 3.)

                258,148 / 561 = 460.1

                US burglary incidences: 2,188,005 (FBI – CUS)

                2,188,005 / 3116 = 702.1

                You are thus 1.52x (702.1 / 460.1) more likely to suffer burglary in the US than in the UK.

                • tedb120

                  ya sure..I am talking about HOMES…

                  • Bluesman1950

                    So, please feel free to show us the reliable statistics comparing night-time burglaries of occupied dwellings in the USA and the UK.

                • jarhead1982

                  Horrible how you cherry pick data to substantiate your pathological lies blueballs

                • mariojuggernaut22

                  That’s because the population is bigger and have many other social issues and problems.

                  • Bluesman1950

                    No it’s not because the population is bigger! The figures allow for that. By expressing the risk on a per capita basis you can compare different countries, whatever their size, be they China or Luxembourg.

                    I agree that America does have much worse social issues and problems, including the racial and economic differences and these are most likely what drive the US crime rate.

              • Bluesman1950

                Your statistics for that figure?

            • jarhead1982

              Aw that old tired anti gun phaggot lie where the imbeciles confuse criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot and then lump in law abiding civilians to make up their inherent lie

              • Bluesman1950

                And again we can wait for the figures to prove the “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot” and wait and wait and wait………………………..

                • jarhead1982

                  And again we wait for the proper govt cite to prove lawful gun owners are the problem…

                  Post any violent crime report and prove the bad guy was a lawful gun owner to begin with liar….

                  Good luck liar

                  • Bluesman1950

                    So we continue to wait for the evidence of “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot”

                    • jarhead1982

                      Andrew Papacharitos study child, on Chicago’s blood thirsty demokrap heathens and gangs but then you being a faux copper have evidence gangs are less violent than law abiding gun owners eh…

                      Where is that data eh donut whoore

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Andrew Papacharitos study child, on Chicago’s blood thirsty demokrap heathens and gangs..”

                        It’s here: http://isps . yale . edu/node/21230#.V6TELvkrKUk
                        ’48 Years of Crime in Chicago: A Descriptive Analysis of Serious Crime Trends from 1965 to 2013′ if that is the Papchristos (actual spelling!)study to which you are clinging for support.

                        It describes the reduction in crime in Chicago over that period and mentions absolutely nothing about “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot”

                        Try another lie!

                      • jarhead1982

                        Man isn’t amazing how violent those criminals are being more likely to be shot

                      • Bluesman1950

                        900 times more likely?

                      • jarhead1982

                        But we understand you cherry picking and lying

                      • jarhead1982

                        Oh and it’s papachristos actually moron

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Not “papacharitos”?

                        So, where does he state the “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot” nonsense that you attribute to him?

                    • jarhead1982

                      I love the insanity of anti gun phaggits inferring violent gangs are less violent than law abiding gun owners….

                      Such is the evidence that mandatory incarceration of such left wing wack jobs would be a public safety service

                      • Bluesman1950

                        I love the insanity of gun phaggits stating “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot” with absolutely no evidence!

                      • jarhead1982

                        We don’t see any proper govt cites for you to prove that 36 times lie as what you cite doesn’t differentiate between law abiding and criminal and was based on a study of majority gasp criminals, end of story liar

                  • Bluesman1950

                    What like Omar Mateen, the Orlando mass killer who held a firearms permit under your crazy US system and legally purchased a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 handgun to slaughter his victims?

                    So your evidence supporting “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot”?

            • Freedomcomesfirst

              Let me chime in.

              You have clearly shown your ignorance on US gun violence.

              The vast majority of the US does not even have a gun violence problem. That is fully supported by undeniable, statistical data.

              Liberal Democrats loved the 2014 GSS poll only because of all of the major polls this one had the lowest per capita gun ownership or about 32%. Never mind the fact that Gallup and others had per capita gun ownership much higher.

              Yet when one reads into the 2014 GSS poll (really a research poll) the data posted states per capita gun ownership (about 44%) is highest in cities and towns with population of less than 10,000. There are about 16,000 of these.

              Interesting enough, our FBI’s UCR clearly shows that towns and cities of this size are the absolute safest in the country. Per capita violent crime is the lowest in the nation along with per capita homicide. I am not talking about marginal differences but differences that measure in the hundreds of percentiles.

              Just the opposite holds true for our largest cities where per capita gun ownership is the lowest (2014 GSS poll, less than 20%) yet per capita violent crime and per capita homicide is the highest in the nation, per our FBI’s UCR. Hundreds of percentiles higher.

              In the state of Vermont, where per capita gun ownership is among the highest in the nation, you can often count the total number of firearm homicides for an entire year on a single hand.
              Yet in cities with about the same population as the entire state of Vermont, with much lower per capita gun ownership, homicides will often exceed Vermont’s in a *single day*.

              Then you have the demographics of US gun violence. Young, male African Americans account for about 50% of all US homicides in any given year (FBI UCR) yet account for under 5% of the US population ( US Census).

              The one common denominator found when one reviews the extensive data is that the vast majority of US gun violence occurs in cities that have been managed and controlled by Liberal Democrats for decades. Hence, liberals are anti-gun.

              Just the opposite holds true for more conservative towns and cities, which are mostly more rural. Hence, they are pro Second Amendment.

              • Bluesman1950

                In 2010, rural small-town Vermont had a firearms homicide rate of 0.3/100k.
                In 2011 the entire UK, with all its cities, had a firearms homicide rate of 0.06/100k, 20% that of Vermont.

                You have a gun violence problem!

                • Freedomcomesfirst

                  LOL!

                  Yet in 2009 Vermont had zero gun related homicides.

                  In the UK you have all but banned firearms!

                  You are simply deflecting from the real US gun violence in typical *liberal fashion* where we have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

                  Do you honestly believe that if you have could simply make firearms disappear by waving a magic wand that US homicides would disappear? I bet the US’s non firearm homicide rate is much higher than your entire homicide rate! This is the US. Not the UK!

                  You are simply wandering around in speculation.

                  Firearms in the US will be around for generations even if the Second Amendment was repealed! And that will never happen. Even many Democrats oppose that.

                  Are the million plus gang bangers in the US going to turn in their firearms? LOL!!

                  Thousands of US towns and cities where per capita firearm ownership is very high are much safer than in the UK where per capita violent crime is often very high.

                  As I stated. Your ignorance on this issue is rather obvious!

                  • Bluesman1950

                    One swallow does not make a summer and one lucky year in one small state proves nothing.

                    Please provide details of any US city, or other large area that had a lower homicide rate than any comparable UK area.

                    You are right that, even if you take all firearms deaths and injuries out of the equation, the USA is far more violent and homicidal than the UK.

                    I think it is too late for the USA to get the guns out of your society. If I lived there I would probably want one too! How you cope with the high death rate and regular massacres is something with which you have to deal.

                    • Freedomcomesfirst

                      There are plenty of US cities that do not have a single incident of homicide in any given year. Gun or no gun.
                      Simply google “FBI UCR”. They have very extensive crime data that covers every type of violent crime. Broken down by states and even many US cities, both small and large.
                      This is all published, public data that any one can review.

                      In the US we have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
                      That is simply not going to change.

                      In the small city that I live in, population about 13,000, per capita gun ownership is very high. Easily over 50%.
                      Yet in the 20 years that I have lived here we have had just a single incident of homicide. And guess what? That was committed by a retired law enforcement officer who came into town and killed his estranged wife!

                      You simply cannot compare the US to the UK.

                      A constitutional republic. Different demographics. Different political ideologies, etc.etc.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “There are plenty of US cities that do not have a single incident of homicide in any given year. Gun or no gun.”

                        As there are very many towns in the UK , that you would call cities.

                        Try an example of somewhere substantial enough to make some valid comparison.

                      • Freedomcomesfirst
                      • Bluesman1950

                        In 2014, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 14,249. This was a 0.5 percent decrease from the 2013 estimate, a 3.2 percent decrease from the 2010 figure, and a 14.9 percent drop from the number in 2005.
                        https://ucr . fbi . gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-8/Table_8_Offenses_Known_to_Law_Enforcement_by_State_by_City_2014.xls/view

                        “The Home Office Homicide Index shows that there were 551 homicides (murder, manslaughter and infanticide) currently recorded in 2012/13 in England and Wales, 21 more than the 530 recorded in 2011/12 (an increase of 4%). This was driven by an increase among those aged under 16 – from 47 in 2011/12 to 67 in 2012/13. The latest increase should be seen in the context of a generally downward trend since 2002/03.”
                        http://webarchive . nationalarchives . gov . uk/20160105160709/http://www . ons . gov . uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/focus-on-violent-crime-and-sexual-offences–2012-13/rpt—chapter-2—homicide.html

                        25 times more murders in the USA with a population less than 6 times that of England and Wales.

                        Thanks for the link.

                        Now, got any figures for statistically significant US areas that are less homicidal than comparable UK areas?

                      • Freedomcomesfirst

                        Yes, but you failed to note my initial entire point in my OP.

                        Where per capita gun ownership in the US is the *highest* (2014 GSS poll), per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest* (2014 FBI UCR).
                        Thousands of three, four and five figure cities/towns from the FBI UCR clearly show that. Google FBI UCR by city size. All the data is there.

                        This is common knowledge in the US and absolutely no one has been able to debunk the data. Including you.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        How about these guys?

                        Abstract
                        Objectives. We examined the relationship between levels of household firearm ownership, as measured directly and by a proxy—the percentage of suicides committed with a firearm—and age-adjusted firearm homicide rates at the state level.

                        The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010

                        American Journal of Public Health.
                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/

                        Methods. We conducted a negative binomial regression analysis of panel data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Web-Based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting Systems database on gun ownership and firearm homicide rates across all 50 states during 1981 to 2010. We determined fixed effects for year, accounted for clustering within states with generalized estimating equations, and controlled for potential state-level confounders.

                        Results. Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%.

                        “Conclusions. We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides”

                      • Freedomcomesfirst

                        More laughable deflection. So many of these “biased” studies have been outed by other scholars that I have lost count.

                        Clearly you are being evasive and a troll. You have yet to debunk what I have readily asked you too. Why? Because you can’t.

                        As I stated before:

                        Where per capita gun ownership in the US is the *highest* (2014 GSS poll), per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest* (2014 FBI UCR).”

                        That is an undeniable, statistical fact.

                        Yet, anyone in the US does not even need that data. It is common knowledge. Even liberals themselves will vouch for that.

                        As I stated in my OP, once again, you are rather ignorant on US gun issues and gun violence.

                        Stick with crime solving in the UK. You would never make it in the US.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Firearm Ownership and Violent Crime
                        in the U.S.
                        An Ecologic Study
                        Michael C. Monuteaux, ScD, Lois K. Lee, MD, David Hemenway, PhD, Rebekah Mannix, MD,
                        Eric W. Fleegler, MD

                        “Results: Higher levels of firearm ownership were associated with higher levels of firearm assault and firearm robbery. There was also a significant association between firearm ownership and firearm
                        homicide, as well as overall homicide.”

                        “Conclusions: The findings do not support the hypothesis that higher population firearm ownership rates reduce firearm-associated criminal perpetration. On the contrary, evidence shows that states
                        with higher levels of firearm ownership have an increased risk for violent crimes perpetrated with a firearm. Public health stakeholders should consider the outcomes associated with private firearm
                        ownership”

                        http://crimeresearch . org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Firearm-Ownership-and-Violent-Crime.pdf

                        Yeah, these biased reports by academics who have only studied all the relevant data in detail eh! What do they know? Just refer to the FBI statistics without any actual comparison of the rates that you are trying to prove. You can hope that tothers will do your work for you, or better still, not bother not try to and then you can claim victory without having to prove anything!

                        Still, I have cited 2 academic papers which disprove your point, please feel free to post the studies by other scholars which ‘out’ them.

                      • Freedomcomesfirst

                        LOL!!

                        Are you suggesting the the FBI’s UCR is bogus? Year after year after year?
                        Are you suggesting that smaller ,more rural towns and cities have lower per capita firearm ownership when all the available data and polls have shown otherwise for decades?

                        A 15 second google found this.

                        ““Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states.”

                        http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent

                        You have yet to disclaim that in the US where per capita gun ownership is the *highest*, per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest*. An undeniable, statistical *fact*.

                        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-16

                        US per capita homicide rate (100,000) in 2014: 4.5
                        US per capita violent crime rate (100,000) in 2014: 374.9

                        US per capita homicide rate cities under 10,000: 2.4
                        US per capita violent crime rate cities under 10,000: 282

                        Compare the above to the next highest grouping or cities with populations up to 25,000. Hardly any statistical change.

                        Look at the much larger cities, virtually all managed and controlled by liberal Democrats for *decades* with much lower per capita firearm ownership.

                        The largest, 1,000,000 or more citizens. Just 10 of those in the US.

                        Per capita homicide rate: 7.4
                        Violent crime: 658.7

                        500,000 to 999,999.

                        Per capita homicide rate: A whopping 11.3
                        Violent crime: A whopping 874.4

                        Do the percentage differences yourself.

                        Here is the buffoonery of liberalism in the US. Just one city. Chicago.

                        http://heyjackass.com/

                        US law enforcement opinions on gun control.

                        https://www.policeone.com/Gun-Legislation-Law-Enforcement/articles/6183787-PoliceOnes-Gun-Control-Survey-11-key-lessons-from-officers-perspectives/

                        In the last 20 years per capita homicide in the US has decreased about 50% with little gun control.

                        After a quick review of UK crime data it would appear that gun bans have not had that much effect on per capita violent crime in the UK. Including homicide. Only the methodology has changed.

                        Are you *still denying* that in the US where per capita gun ownership is the *highest*, per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest*??????

                      • Gold Panner

                        Freedomcomesfirst don’t waste your time anymore with blueballs1950, you will never convince an arrogant and ignorant person, you can spew facts and figures all day long and that will never reach him, you gave him some great information, you handed it to him on a platter like others have before you and this idiot just don’t get it.
                        You’ll never convince the liberal minded, they are the ones that are herded up first when a government decides to start taking control, we all know where he will be when the SHTF, get pleasure knowing that, I know I do:) It will be the ultimate “I told ya so” 🙂

                      • Freedomcomesfirst

                        Thanks.

                        I have yet to figure out how the far left liberal minds work.

                        They seem to think that the whole of America is like crime infested liberal Chicago where in reality just the opposite is true.

                        It is amazing that the far left left fully engages in anarchy and gets away with it. They willfully and knowingly provide sanctuary to known and wanted illegal aliens, including convicted violent felons, with their sanctuary city policies, all 100% in violation of US Federal immigration law, yet seem perfectly OK with going after lawful US citizens. These folks are outright nuts.

                        If it ever comes push and shove they are going to lose badly.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “I could care less about UK per capita homicide rates”
                        That’s kind of you. Many of your compatriots couldn’t care less.

                        Care to post an actual comparative list rather than expecting me to dig through all the FBI figures?

      • lhecker51

        Support that with evidence or go back to your basement.

    • Pingback: 32 shot in Chicago since Saturday Morning - Page 2()

    • jarhead1982

      Now if any of you anti gun eloi need a lesson on the UK, we have that govt. data as well proving anti gun idiots liars, your move liars….

      • Typical

        Do you need a safe space so you can sob to yourself peacefully.
        Away from the gun crime?

        • jarhead1982

          Aw poor widdle troll, too fkkn stupid to prove the UK govt data wrong, so sad……

        • Marc Purnell

          Don’t worry. The UK will soon be the next Iraq in 10 to 20 years.

    • jarhead1982

      http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/wopapub/senate/committee/clac_ctte/completed_inquiries/2008_10/suicide/submissions/sub42_pdf.ashx

      On Australian drug overdose deaths which NIH researchers believe cause a 20% to 40% undercount in suicide see
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/overdose-deaths-pass-national-road-toll-for-first-time/story-fni0fee2-1226705302834

      On top of that, Australia’s probative burdens on suicide rulings by coroners were made stricter about 15 years ago, which caused an immediate false and sustained lowering of suicide statistics rates simply due to policy changes.
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/achieving-standardised-reporting-suicide-australia-rationale-and-program-change

      By the way not only are drug overdose suicides undercounted by 20% to 40% within drug overdose deaths, drug overdose deaths themselves are undercounted in western countries
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8447863

      It is a slam dunk Australia’s suicide rate is substantially up, with the rise starting in about 1998, about the same time as the statistical undercount was created by the changes in probative burdens created by the Australian Health ministry – as noted in dozens of peer reviewed papers on the substantial undercount

    • jarhead1982

      http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13811118.2012.667330#abstract

      Suicide Prevention and Method Restriction: Evaluating the Impact of Limiting Access to Lethal Means Among Young Australians

      DOI:10.1080/13811118.2012.667330

      Samara McPhedran & Jeanine Baker

      pages 135-146

      Abstract

      Given the finite resources allocated to suicide prevention, it is necessary to direct resources into interventions that are most likely to have an impact. This article tests for possible impacts on youth suicides of a cost-intensive Australian policy change (increased firearms restriction) that limited access to a means of suicide. Suicide rates by different age groups and methods were examined for structural breaks, using Zivot-Andrews and Quandt tests. No breakpoint was found in firearm suicide among Australian youth around the time of the 1996 legislative changes. Method restriction in the form of firearms legislation could not be tied to a corresponding impact on youth suicide.

    • jarhead1982

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18839044

      Controlling firearms use in Australia: has the 1996 gun law reform produced the decrease in rates of suicide with this method?

      Dr. Helen Klieve, Michael Barnes, Prof. Diego De Leo MD, PhD, DSc, FRANZCP

      Klieve H1, Barnes M, De Leo D.

      Author information

      Abstract

      BACKGROUND:

      Observed reductions in firearm suicides in Australia have been linked to the 1997 national firearms agreement (NFA) introduced following the 1996 Port Arthur massacre. The NFA placed strong access restrictions on firearms.

      AIMS:

      To assess the impact of legislative restrictions on the incidence of firearm suicide in Queensland and explore alternative or contributory factors behind observed declines.

      METHOD:

      The Queensland suicide register (QSR) provided detailed information on all male suicides in Queensland (1990-2004), with additional data for Australia (1968-2004) accessed from other official sources. Trends in suicide rates pre/post NFA, and in method selection, were assessed using negative binomial regressions. Changing method selection patterns were examined using a cohort analysis of 5 years of age classes for Australian males.

      RESULTS:

      The observed reduction in firearms suicides was initiated prior to the 1997 introduction of the NFA in Queensland and Australia, with a clear decline observed in Australian figures from 1988. No significant difference was found in the rate pre/post the introduction of the NFA in Queensland; however, a significant difference was found for Australian data, the quality of which is noticeably less satisfactory. A marked age-difference in method choice was observed through a cohort analysis demonstrating both time and age influences. Within sequential birth cohorts, rates of firearms suicides decreased in younger males but increased in hanging suicides; this trend was far less marked in older males.

      CONCLUSIONS:

      The implemented restrictions may not be responsible for the observed reductions in firearms suicide. Data suggest that a change in social and cultural attitudes could have contributed to the shift in method preference.

    • jarhead1982

      All the while also refusing to acknowledge the effect of the baby boomers age subgroup as it affects crime rates. Geez, you Aussies had the Baby Boomers (born 1947-1964) also didn’t you, yeah you did!

      Criminologists the world over all agree the most active criminal ages are 15-24 and 25-34, then the criminal activity declines the older a subgroup gets. Amazing how that actually mirrors identically the trend in murders DECREASING, a trend that Australian government shows began occurring back in the mid 1980’s and continues to this day. Not to mention the ending of those gang turf battles.

      Hence yet again, no valid proof that gun control had anything relevant to causing that reduction in murders., a near 42% drop in actual murders using a firearm in the US versus a 39% drop in murders using a firearm in Australia. Uh dude, there is no statistical difference is there, geez shuckey darn! Yet again proof that less firearms doesn’t equal less violence, much less more guns equal more violence BS.

      You were saying?

    • jarhead1982

      Oh wait, you forgot to mention the increases in weapons being used to commit murders or VIOLENT CRIME which the Australian government acknowledges in their reports, and reflect that indeed as noted, more WEAPONS and more KNIVES are being used to commit a crime REPLACING the use of a firearm. But hey dont let govt. FACTS get in the way of your fantasy. Since you already have a functioning link to the Australian crime database, you can try and refute their data again!

      ” So without the Port Arthur killings using a firearm only 65 occurred in 1996, which was 40 in 2011, wow thats impressive, NOT.

      Geez, didnt the Port Author killings occur in 1996 making a spike in their killings, yeah it did. So is it a true reflection upon normal crime trends to add that anomaly/spike into the trends as a rational comparison to see what effect a law had on a result, no it isnt!

      See that is where the gun banners like to use % to look impressive and quote the % of firearms used in murders has dropped SO DRAMATICALLy.

      Lets see 311 murders, 65 using firearm in 1996 65/311 = 20.9%
Lets see 244 murders, 44 using firearm in 2011 40/244 = 16.39%

      Amazing how when one digs into the details, the ACTUAL TREND for reduction in killings using a firearm is rather puny!

      Yet the number of assaults with weapons keeps rising, hmmmm. Sure appears that the level of violence isnt being reduced, but just luck of the draw some of those arent killings, so sad.

      Oh and as noted in GOVT. and recorded history, there was indeed a NASTY gang war going on in the 1980’s to early 2000’s. Has that ended matey, oh yes, it has hasnt it.

      Oh whats this page #31,Homicide in Australia: 2007–08 National Homicide Monitoring Program annual report

      http://aic.gov.au/documents/8/9/D/ %7b89DEDC2D-3349-457C-9B3A-9AD9DAFA7256%7dmr13_004.pdf

      “…………. The majority of firearms used in homicides were unregistered and/or unlicensed” hmmm, such a consistent trend all over the world that the bad guys dont obey the law to begin with!

      http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/141-160/tandi151.html

    • jarhead1982

      Totally unbeknownst to anti gun eloi, Australian academics have already examined the mass murder rate by firearm by comparing Australia to a control country: New Zealand. (Do they teach “control groups” at Harvard?)

      New Zealand is strikingly similar to Australia. Both are isolated island nations, demographically and socioeconomically similar. Their mass murder rate before Australia’s gun ban was nearly identical: From 1980 to 1996, Australia’s mass murder rate was 0.0042 incidents per 100,000 people and New Zealand’s was 0.0050 incidents per 100,000 people.

      The principal difference is that, post-1997, New Zealand remained armed to the teeth — including with guns that were suddenly banned in Australia.

      While it’s true that Australia has had no more mass shootings since its gun ban, neither has New Zealand, despite continuing to be massively armed. . . .

    • jarhead1982

      http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/3/2/A/%7B32A6FD1D-AF18-432E-9A46-76E42EEA9755%7Dcfi176.pdf

      The Australian Institute of Criminology’s National Homicide Monitoring Program (NHMP) has monitored homicides in Australia since 1989. NHMP data indicate that homicide, followed by the suicide of the offender either immediately after or within a short period of killing one or more victims, is a relatively infrequent event. Out of the total number of homicide incidents recorded by the NHMP (n=5,486), six percent (n=343) are classified as murder-suicides and 80 percent of these occurred in the context of intimate and/or family relationships. The most common type of murder-suicide in 2006–07 was that involving a parent killing their children (38% of murder-suicides) followed by intimate partner homicide (31% of murder-suicides). Eighty-two percent of murder-suicides in 2006–07 involved one offender and victim only. The remaining 18 percent involved one offender and multiple victims. The figure below shows that there is no statistically significant trend in multiple-victim murder-suicides, with numbers fluctuating between a low of zero during 2001 and a high of seven during 2003.

    • jarhead1982

      A Transcript of the Police Interview With Martin Bryant” http : // loveforlife . com . au / content / 07 / 10 / 30 / transcript-police-interview-martin-bryant

      Funny, how even before 1996, you needed a LICENSE to purchase a firearm, yet the Port Arthur killer didnt have one, yet that is somehow the LAW ABIDING GUN OWNERS FAULT AGAIN EH?

    • jarhead1982

      Now what is hilarious is that when one reviews the Australian gun laws from the early 1970’s on, we see their gun laws as RESTRICTIVE TO BEGIN WITH!

      How then did port author and all those attacks occur with strict gun control to begin with eh….

      https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/W/WeaponsA90.pdf

      http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/consol_reg/fr1974211/

      http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/A/FIREARMS%20ACT%201977/CURRENT/1977.26.UN.PDF

    • jarhead1982

      Isnt it amazing how many mass klillings the australians had during strict gun control from the 1970’s into the 1990’s and then still had mass shootings and attacks after 1996 eh….

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mass_murders

      • Cullin-La-Ringo massacre – Horatio Wills and his traveling party were killed by Aborigines at Cullin-La-Ringo Station in Queensland in 1860; police, native police and civilians killed 60 to 70 Aborigines in response.

      • George David Silva murdered six members of the Ching family at Alligator Creek near Mackay, Queensland in 1911.

      • Coniston massacre – Over 50 Aboriginal people were killed in the last Aboriginal massacre in 1928. The motive was revenge for the killing of dingo hunter Frederick Brooks.

      • Hope Forest massacre – Clifford Cecil Bartholomew shot dead ten members of his family in Hope Forest near Adelaide, September 1971.[2]

      • Whiskey Au Go Go fire – Fire lit in club killed 15

      • 22 September 1976 – William Robert Wilson – Killed two people and wounded four on Boundary Street, Spring Hill,Brisbane. Wilson took a .22 calibre rifle and 500 rounds of ammunition to Boundary Street around 12.30 pm and began shooting randomly. He shot and killed Monika Schleus, aged 17, as she crossed Boundary Street. Wilson shot and wounded Donald William Hepburn Galloway, who was also crossing the street. Proceeding to a milk bar, Wilson shot and killed Marianne Kalatzis, aged 18, and wounded Mavis Ethel Sanders and Virginia Hollidge. In the neighbouring shop he shot and wounded Quinto Alberti. Wilson was captured by police around 4:15 pm at a suburban house where Wilson was holding a man and four young women hostage. Wilson served three years in a mental hospital. On being found fit for trial, he was sentenced in 1980 to two life sentences for the murders and 10 years each, concurrently, for the four attempted murders. He pleaded guilty to all charges.[3]

      • Russell Street Bombing – 23 wounded when a car bomb ignites outside a Police Building. One of the wounded, a female police officer, died later of injuries from the explosion.

      • Douglas Crabbe – Truck driver deliberately crashed his truck into a hotel, killing five and badly wounding 16.

      • Sydney Hilton bombing – Two garbage men were killed and 12 passers-by were injured by a bomb planted in a garbage bin outside the Sydney Hilton Hotel in 1978. A police officer who was wounded died later.

      • Milperra massacre – Two biker gangs, the Comanchero and the Bandidos, engaged in a shoot-out in a hotel car park, killing 7 people in 1984, including a bystander. Only one defendant was acquitted on the murder charges. Oh wait, these were criminals, with guns, who weren’t licensed eh, hmmmmm!

      • Joseph Schwab – 1987, Schwab shot dead 5 people in and around the Kimberley region in Western Australia before being shot dead by police.[4]

      • Hoddle Street massacre – Armed with two rifles and a shotgun, Julian Knight shot 7 people dead and wounded another 19 in 1987 before surrendering to authorities.

      • Queen Street massacre – Armed with a sawn-off rifle, Frank Vitkovic roamed the Australia Post building killing 8 and wounding 5, also in 1987. When the weapon was finally wrestled from him, he committed suicide by jumping out of a nearby window.

      • Surry Hills massacre – Paul Anthony Evers killed 5 people with a 12-gauge shotgun at a public housing precinct in Surry Hills in 1990 before surrendering to police.[5]

      • Strathfield massacre – In 1991 Wade Frankum killed 7 people and wounded 6 others with a large knife and an SKSbefore turning the gun on himself when he realised he could not escape.

      • Central Coast Massacre – Malcolm Baker killed 6 people and injured another with a shotgun in 1992 before being arrested by police.

      • Port Arthur massacre – In 1996, armed with two semi-automatic rifles, Martin Bryant killed 35 people around Port Arthur and wounded 21 before being caught by police the next day following an overnight siege.

      • Childers Palace Fire – In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.

      • Monash University shooting – In October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang, a student, shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five.

      • June 18, 2007, in which a lone gunman killed a man who had come to the aid of an assault victim and seriously wounded two others in Melbourne’s central business district during morning rush hour

      • Churchill Fire – 10 confirmed deaths due to a deliberately lit fire. The fire was lit on 7th of February 2009.

      • Quakers Hill Nursing Home Fire – 10 confirmed and as many as 21 people may have died as a result of a deliberately lit fire in a Quakers Hill nursing home. The fire was lit early on 18th of November 2011.

      • Salamander Bay, Australia April 3, 2003 The shooter threw petrol bombs before opening fire, seriously wounding 2 students

      2011 Hectorville siege

      A mass shooting that took place on Friday, April 29, 2011, in Hectorville, South Australia began after a 39-year-old male, Donato Anthony Corbo, went on a shooting rampage, killing three people and wounding a child and two police officers with a shotgun stolen from a family member, before being arrested by Special Operations police after an eight-hour seige.[27]

      • Adelaide, Australia A May 7, 2012 Year eight student took a revolver on school grounds, firing shots, nobody was injured.

      2014 – Hunt family murders: 5 dead

      2014 – Logan shooting: 3 dead

      • • Sydney Australia Dec 15 2014, local thuggsta terrorsit wannabe kills 2 injures others….

      ht The gunman, Man Monis, obtained an illegal sawn off Remington 870 and did not hold a firearms license. Monis also had an extensive criminal history and was on parole at the time for accessory to murdertp://www.smh.com.au/nsw/shooting-outside-police-headquarters-in-parramatta-20151002-gk07tb.html

      10/2/2015 Parramatta Australia

      • Let’sBeFriends

        The definition of a mass shooting is if the gunman kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location.

        https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder/serial-murder-1

        Fires aren’t mass shootings either, ya clown.

        • jarhead1982

          Oh darn so all those claims by the everytown whoores and VPC whoores that aren’t 4 killed not including the shooter can’t be counted in their 212 mass shootings claim/lie where they included all those criminals and their criminal acts in non gun free zones this year eh, good to know

          • Let’sBeFriends

            No problem sweetie!

      • Gremlin Le

        This is so idiotic. If we typed up the entire history of gun violence with 3 or more murders during a single terrorist or murder act in the USA, it would probably take an entire population to write it up.

    • jarhead1982

      Whoops, so much for the gun control failure in australia

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GPPxGX8pdA

      Amazing how full autos, home made, are showing up in criminals hands these days!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUTdtXE4Rj8

      Hells Angels, Outlaws went to war in the 1990’s in Australia also

      http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888288,00.html

      Bikie gang killings 2009

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MMzKEXW48Q

      Bike gang wars

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO5Eh0QBGTQ

      More bikie gang violence

      http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/australia-escalating-biker-gang-war.htm

      Imagine that, fighting over turf to sell drugs!

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/11/idUSSYD1644

      Bikie gangs 2007, violence escalating again, imagine that, thought you mateys took all the law abiding subjects guns, oh wait, you didn’t take the criminals, what morons!

    • jarhead1982

      By the way, what is a country, with gun bans suicide rate vs the US? Australia has 1/100th of our firearms, so they should have 1/100th of our suicide rate, uh dude, their 2010 suicide rate is 11.14 per 100k people.

      What about murders, lets compare that as well.

      1996 Australia 1.7 murders per 100k people 2013 1.08 murders per 100k people a -36.5% reduction

      1996 US 7.4 murders per 100k people 2013 4.5 murders per 100k people a -39.1% reduction.

      How is it again, that a country with a 42% increase in civilian firearm ownership and 100 times more firearms in law abiding civilian hands than Australia, have a greater reduction in murders than they did?

      Now if one breaks it down into weapons used if you take and look at the normal trend, one see’s Australia reduction in murder by illegal use of firearms only reduced -4.61% from 1996 to 2013, the US from 1996 to 2013 was reduced -26.7%.

      That’s a 5.79 times greater reduction than in Australia…..oh wait, maybe that reduction difference is so great cause in Australia all they did was confiscate the guns from the law abiding and not the FREAKING CRIMINALS MORE-ONS!

      http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02011?OpenDocument

      http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/F/F/B/%7bFFB9E49F-160F-43FC-B98D-6BC510DC2AFD%7dmr01.pdf

      • Let’sBeFriends

        “How is it again, that a country with a 42% increase in civilian firearm ownership and 100 times more firearms in law abiding civilian hands than Australia, have a greater reduction in murders than they did?”

        LMAO, because America had a higher rate of murders in the first place! Australia was already around 1.8-2.0 in the early 90’s so of course comparitively it didn’t have as great of a reduction
        http://www.aic.gov.au/dataTools/facts/vicViolentRate.html

        since in the early 90s the USA was sitting around 9.5 -9.8

        https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls

        https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1

        http://www.aic.gov.au/dataTools/facts/vicViolentRate.html

        Not to mention the crack epidemic drying up, more police officers put on the beat in the early 90’s and the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 all helping to contribute to the sharp reduction you’re conveniently citing

        http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf
        http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Violent+Crime+Control+and+Law+Enforcement+Act+of+1994

        • jarhead1982

          So again we have proven that more guns in law abiding gun owners hands doesn’t equal more violence, thanks for playing…

          Then the reduction in violence had started long before 1994 sweety and that rate didn’t change because of the idiotic semi auto rifle racist bigoted ban because the gun was black

          But if you had a brain and thought for yourself you would see the direct correlation in the reduction in violence to the aging of the baby boomers, born 1947-1964

          You know the largest age group to that date

          See world leading criminologists like Wolfgang, Piersall, Chaiken and Ambrohse long ago identified criminals most active ages 15-34 yrs old and since near 125 million baby boomers were born 1947-1964, it’s a given more people more crime sweety

          But hey you have what evidence other than inferred causality, Nyet, nothing of course, anti gun perverts never have anything

          Its rather sad people supposedly with brains ignore the obvious

          • Let’sBeFriends

            Except part of the act that Clinton signed if you had bothered to read actual facts “sweetie”, besides increased police force, was a 10 year ban on assault rifle manufacture and distribution, 5 days wait on handgun ownership and minors prohibited from owning a handgun full stop. The fact there was more money funding police, FBI, social services, technology, all helped contribute, NOT the fact that baby boomers got frickin’ old, lmao.

            Blaming everything on the baby boomers is a ridiculous and convenient scapegoat, especially in fact of the other blatant fact of why crime was so high in the 80’s to 90’s besides the crack epidemic, which would be a floundering economy and high unemployment rates after the end of the Gulf War. But yeah, those olds were just naturally predisposed to violence I guess and there’s never been people aged 15-34 since? Hahahaha.

            • jarhead1982

              Proven lie, but hey keep it up we need the chuckles

              • Let’sBeFriends

                Yeah you really got me there, binhead

                • jarhead1982

                  Since everything anti gun phaggits claim is a lie to begin with by US govt data not one single one of the anti gun bingeads have ever disproven the problem is yours liar

                  • Let’sBeFriends

                    Mm yes OK. Please now tell me your thoughts on chemtrails and the illuminati

                    • jarhead1982

                      Still got nothing eh whistling between the ears

                      • Let’sBeFriends

                        At least there’s no tinfoil hat blocking the airflow on my dome, pumpkin. Just continue avoiding pesky things like facts and citations, I mean you got this far with baseless heresay and skewed facts to prop your strawmen up while throwing out doozies like “phaggits”. Keep reaching for that rainbow!

                      • jarhead1982

                        You have no proper govt facts and govt citations to back your claims liar, dismissed child

                      • Let’sBeFriends

                        Sure, I just dropped a bunch of FBI and AIC data and research papers, no big deal.
                        But I’m sure getting your pals to upvote your jibbering will help you sleep at night 😉
                        Later pops

            • Dion Kerfont

              It wasn’t one specific drug… it’s the “war on drugs” that started with Nixon.

    • jarhead1982

      Oh wait, what is this, we see that Australia is INDEED under reporting their homicides,….

      That is if one goes and reviews the Australian Bureau of Statistics report for each year on UNDERLYING CAUSES OF DEATH, versus the # of murders reported in their CRIME DATA REPORTS:

      2007-2013

      Murders: 1,709

      Homicides: 5,278

      Amazing how the police in Australia are under reporting their murders by near 80%……..and it wouldn’t just be murders they are under reporting now would it, LOL……..

      http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Previousproducts/24D4F763D69B9C0ECA256BDC00122407?opendocument

      • Steve Bright

        I realise you are a professional liar for the NRA / Gun lobby (saying “we” is a giveaway, isn’t it?), however claiming Australian police fabricate false figures to underreport murders by 80% is pretty low even by your standards.
        Here in Australia most people don’t own guns. The ones that do are required by law to keep them in a safe. We don’t have military style semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines. We don’t have deranged individuals shooting children in schools, night clubs, or their workmates in the office. We don’t have children accidentally shooting people with guns. We don’t carry guns around with us, our wives don’t carry guns, and we don’t shoot one another. Gun deaths in Australia were averaging over 500 / year before the gun buyback. They’re now running at low 200 / year. Still, I suspect you’ll find 300 deaths a year a source of amusement somehow, won’t you?
        Americans who move here tell us that a huge burden of fear, which they hadn’t even been consciously aware of in the US, has been lifted from them with the absence of guns.
        Most shootings are between criminal gangs. When a farmer in a dispute with government officials shot and killed one, the shooting and the trial have been a major news story for a year.
        When we read about the latest mass shooting in the US we shake our heads in sorrow and pity, and with sadness because we realise that the US is so bound up in the gun culture, that there is no way to change it in the foreseeable future.
        If I were you, I’d lay awake at night worrying that the position on gun control in the US is now so far beyond the possibility of any rational control measure that your employers will realise they don’t need a flim flam merchant like you to lie for them, and you’ll have to find an honest job. The “honest” part may give you some trouble.

        • jarhead1982

          That’s a lot of illicit narcotic fueled unsubstantiated Gish galloping lies that prove nothing

          Do get a brain transplant and seek mental health treatment for your narcissistic personality disorder you believing your God

          • Steve Bright

            What an intelligent response. Such command of the English language. I’ve never heard of “Gish galloping” before, but having looked it up, you seem to have complete mastery of the technique.
            You’re showing all the class I expected based on your profile picture.
            Happy sleepless nights.

            p.s. If you’re going to post links to your claims, you might expect someone to check them and find out the “facts” you claim are fictitious.

            • jarhead1982

              Gish galloping away says the anti gun perve

              • Steve Bright

                “Anti gun perve”. Is that your best shot? Help! I’m being stoned to death with popcorn.
                At least I’m not a victim of the Dunning Kruger effect.

                • jarhead1982