The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told.
By @Justinkingnews |
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    (TFC) Washington, DC  – A church was shot up by a lunatic. The US government never lets a tragedy or crisis pass without attempting to find a new way to restrict the American people. So, we can expect a renewed push for gun control. There is a lot of propaganda about gun control. So much so that the truth has been lost.

    The National Rifle Association (NRA) would have you believe that guns stop murders. The gun control lobby would have you believe that gun control reduces murders. They are both wrong. Gun bans have always had the same effect once implemented: none. They do not create a (sustained) period of increased murders, nor do they reduce the rate of homicides. The gun control crowd is currently stomping their feet and screaming “No, it reduces violence! I’ve seen the statistics.” What you probably saw were studies that point to reduced instances of “gun murders,” not murder. The pro-gun crowd is screaming that gun bans cause crime. At least this is grounded in reality. Typically, there is a spike in murders immediately after a ban, but it is short lived.


    Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told. Let’s take a look at the data:

    United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

    Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

    Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.

    Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. Removing firearms does not typically create massive lawlessness. It is a moot point. These figures aren’t a secret. Why would the governments of these nations want a disarmed populace? For the answer, it is best to look at a nation that has had long-time gun bans that is currently relaxing their laws. Russia recently relaxed its firearms laws. For the first time in recent memory, a Russian citizen can carry a firearm. The prohibited items speak volumes about what a government’s motive behind disarming the population is. Russia has allowed “smoothbore long barrelled guns, pistols, revolvers, and other firearms, as well as Tasers, and devices equipped with teargas.” That’s almost everything, what is still banned? Rifles. So the Russian government has made it clear that the real objective is to remove rifles from civilian hands. The reasoning is pretty clear: you need rifles to overthrow a government.


    The Real Reason Gun Control Will Never Work:

    Poverty has a greater correlation to violent crime than access to firearms. Education and poverty are directly linked. In short, we don’t have a gun problem in the United States, we have a cultural problem.Home Depot. Most people in the gun control lobby know nothing about firearms or their construction. Everything you need to manufacture firearms is available at Home Depot. The materials needed to manufacture a 12 gauge shotgun cost about $20. If someone wanted to build a fully automatic Mac-10 style submachine gun, it would probably cost about $60. Every electrician, plumber, and handyman in the country has the materials necessary to manufacture firearms in their shop. The items are completely unregulated. They aren’t like the chemicals necessary to manufacture methamphetamines. How is the battle against that black market working out?

    We have a society that panders to the basest desires and instincts. One of those is violence. We live in a society where women are given dirty looks for breastfeeding in a restaurant, while over their heads on the wall-mounted television plays a movie that graphically depicts someone being tortured to death. We are desensitized to violence, and we have a generation of people that do not have the coping skills necessary to deal with reality.

    Firearms are the Pandora’s Box of the United States. The box is open, it can’t be closed through legislation. If you want to change society, you have to actually change the whole of society. You can’t blame an inanimate object that’s availability has absolutely no correlation to murder and expect to end violence.

    This article (The Facts That Neither Side Wants to Admit About Gun Control) originally appeared on The Fifth Column and was used with permission.
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    • Dan Spector

      In a large number of cases, spree killers obtained the firearms right before they did it. We want to make it harder for those psychopaths.

    • CHRIS D

      Western Europe has strict gun control and the murder rte varies from 1 to 10 per million, the US is at an all time low at about 40 per million, over 60% of those are carried out with a gun. The UK for example have never had the homicide rates at the levels of the US and they have never had a gun culture, even before the stricter laws , like the US. The way this article uses the stats to try to prove it’s point is stupid and very transparent.

      • The non-black/Hispanic rate in the US is comparable to that of the UK, illustrating it’s not gun availability that drives homicide rates.

        • CHRIS D

          That is completely incorrect

    • judi m

      If someone were to break into my house, and home break-ins are not uncommon, I feel safe because I own a gun.

    • 5_ever

      Where could they steal guns from if there are no guns to steal? Use your brain, genius.

    • Pingback: Gun Control or Gun Banishment? | Gun Control Violence and Safety()

    • Box of Wine

      Mass shootings after 1996 in australia = NONE

      • PeaceMaker

        I’ll raise you a Switzerland, many guns lower violent crime than Australia

        • Box of Wine

          Meanwhile Japan Trumps Switzerland. LOL

          • Mark W

            Japan has twice the suicide rate as the US and they have no guns. They are also an island Nation with almost zero immigration or ethnic diversity so they don’t make for a great comparison. BTW, I assume you enjoy wine by your name, according to the CDC roughly 90,000 Americans die every year from Alcohol related causes, more than all homicides, suicides and motor vehicles combined. Are you in favor of bringing back prohibition?

            • Box of Wine

              HAHAHA proven wrong, so you bring up irrelevant facts.
              Classic simpleton argument.

              • Mark W

                To a moron like you all facts are irrelevant. Enjoy your wine, don’t forget to drink and drive.

                • Box of Wine

                  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you still have yet to bring up relevant facts.

                  Could it be because you’re wrong.

      • Ted120

        mass shooting are a tiny fraction of the gun deaths in the US

    • sik3xploit

      The best thing ever is people who like to focus on an increase or decrease in gun homicides, but will absolutely ignore what has happened to violent crime in total.

    • 5_ever

      Exactly, because we typically see criminals toting homemade guns in the UK. LOL.

      • Ted120

        Naa they have stolen guns

    • CABorn71

      The real reason gun control laws don’t work? CRIMINALS DON’T FOLLOW THE LAWS…

      • smartalek

        Clearly, then, we should get rid of the laws against theft, murder, etc — they obviously do no good either.
        Why are you not one of our leading lights, with such brilliance, CABorn?

        • CABorn71

          We have all of those laws in place, yet all those things still happen. Why, because some people do not follow the law. Thank you for helping me to prove my point. If you want to leave your safety up to law enforcement in your area, that’s your choice. But you can’t force me to rely on the unreliable, for protection. I live in Colorado where we have the equivalent to the make my day laws, and we have a very low crime rate. In fact, much lower than say Chicago, with all of their gun laws. The laws simply don’t work. Basic common sense dictates that criminals are far less likely to break into someones home if they know firearms are present. This, is common sense, not brilliance…. And I am sorry you don’t understand the difference between the two. Apparently, neither does our Government. I can fix a lot of things, but I can’t give people the ability to think rationally or with common sense….

        • Ted120

          ROFL BS

          Here are the idiots in Chicago “thinking” of actually enforcing gun control laws.

          Chicago to get tougher on Gun crime

          According to their internal review, 74 victims of gun violence in the city this year would have still been in jail for illegal gun possession if tougher sentencing rules were in place. Almost everyone charged with the crime receives the one-year minimum, the Sun-Timesfound, compared to the maximum sentence of three years.
          On the other end of the barrel, 86 shooting suspects would also have been in jail on the same charge had they been given harsher sentences.
          The bare minimum is that gun possession should be treated as a violent crime.

      • Ted120


        • rocky6500

          even if we enforce the laws. there will always be someone with a gun because you can just make them!

          • Ted120

            hard to do…and its the fear of the JAIL time that keeps people from having and using guns…

            • rocky6500

              i mean if its the jail time people fear then why don’t they stop using guns for violence and crime?

              • Ted120

                Simply because there is not significant jail time…the reality is cites like Chicago don’t enforce their own damn gun laws….but they are thinking of doing it……maybe

                Chicago to get tougher on Gun crime

                According to their internal review, 74 victims of gun violence in the city this year would have still been in jail for illegal gun possession if tougher sentencing rules were in place. Almost everyone charged with the crime receives the one-year minimum, the Sun-Timesfound, compared to the maximum sentence of three years.
                On the other end of the barrel, 86 shooting suspects would also have been in jail on the same charge had they been given harsher sentences.
                The bare minimum is that gun possession should be treated as a violent crime.
                – Anthony Guglielmi, spokesperson, Chicago PD

    • Rumpled

      We will be neither safer nor freer when only badged authorities may keep and bear arms.

    • RalphSpyer

      Uniter States citizens do not trust our government , the Vietnam war, the Iraq war ,JFK murder, Vince Foster murder, 911 third building, CIA and drugs, blowback,Next you have self defense

    • People Voice

      Savior Without Guns – The American Gun Debate

      offers great perspective on The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

    • Rachel Sonowa

      My colleagues needed OPM Qualifications Availability Form C last month and located a great service that hosts 6,000,000 forms . If people are searching for OPM Qualifications Availability Form C too , here’s

    • Bluesman1950

      Why are you too chicken schiite to post the proper link and data proving you right?

      Because you don’t have any such links or data!

      I don’t have to prove you wrong, you have first to try to prove that your assertion is true.

      • jarhead1982

        Cluck cluck cluck cluck goes blue balls

        • Bluesman1950

          And still no evidence from clucking Jarheadcase.

    • Bluesman1950

      “Post any violent crime report and prove the bad guy was a lawful gun owner to begin with liar….”
      You asked for one, I gave you one!

      Still you could try disproving some of the 885 examples in the attached website:

      • jarhead1982

        So sad how 1 out of 11,00 isn’t 36 times more likely eh try again liar

    • Bluesman1950

      What proves you wrong is the fact that you can’t put up a single fact to support whatever point it was you were trying to make. I have nothing to prove, you’ve already done it for me.

      • jarhead1982

        So sad the anti gunphaggit liar refuses to post the proper govt cite to prove he isn’t lying

        • Bluesman1950

          Still no evidence. O.k

          • Grey Wolf

            Let me just bring up what the author was making a point about….gun control is about stopping the people from having a way to stop a government run a muck ….take native americans…(give us your guns and we will take care of you) they lied to us and still killed many of us off the only reason we are still here is because many of our ancestors hid …i will never be apart of giving a government my weapon and ending up like my ancestors i have learned from their mistake…have all of you?

          • jarhead1982

            Youre too stupid to google the british coroners office, so noted liar…

            • Bluesman1950

              There is no such thing as “the british coroners office”!

              I have, however already checked Coroners Statistics Annual, 2015, England and Wales
              Ministry of Justice Statistics bulletin:
              https://www . gov . uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525916/coroners-statistics-annual-2015-england-and-wales.pdf

              There is nothing there which supports your silly lies.

              • jarhead1982

                Wow a real link……what does it say about all those homicides totals being different than home office crime data sweety….we are waiting

                • Bluesman1950

                  Absolutely nothing which supports your lies. Try reading it yourself.

                  • jarhead1982

                    You’re acting like its the first time you masturbated and don’t know how to close the deal even at your advanced age….must be a real teensy tool

                    Come on coward, I want to see you post something stupid or some partial truth so we can take your lies apart yet again ….

                    Here’s your chance, you can post the coroners data and compare against the home office and clarify why there is such a discrepancy ….

                    Too frightened to do so eh liar….

                    • Bluesman1950

                      No need to. If you can find anything there that contradicts the Home Office stats post it. But there isn’t anything is there? So you just resort to your sexual fantasies as insults again.

                      Sad boy.

                      • jarhead1982

                        So you’re a liar and a coward, got it

                      • Bluesman1950

                        So you have nothing but childish abuse. Got it.

        • Typical

          He’s asked you to provide proof which you refuse to do.
          Don’t accuse him of somehing you’re guilty of

          • jarhead1982

            The british coroners office data is not sealed and prohibited to the public information, so WE DARE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG, but the severely mentally ill anti gunphaggits with their inherent narcissistic personality disorder of their believing they are god, when they arent, never provide any proof to back their claims…….and blueballs is an anti gunphaggit, you lose liar

      • Typical

        Jarhead can’t prove anything and he knows it which is why he never backs anything up with facts when asked and resorts to name calling.
        Typical yank that thinks he knows anything about other countries and more than the people that live there but thinks they don’t know anything about his even when presenting him with facts
        He is fun to play with.

        • jarhead1982

          Poor widdle mukey pedo puffer has started another account we see…..

    • Bluesman1950

      “In other words, the 15-year experiment in a (UK) handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.”

      The year after Dunblane, 1996 there were 59 killings with handguns in Britain; in 2014 there were only 29.

      If the USA had the same rate of handgun killings as the UK their figure would be about 150
      Last year in the USA there were 13,393.

      Absolutely nothing?

      • OneBadStud

        You’ve done exactly what the author described, made the claim that there are reduced gun murders.

        • Bluesman1950

          How is 59 down to 29 not a reduction?

          • OneBadStud

            Sure. What happened to the intentional homicide rate? It spiked in 2003 and leveled off. What’s the difference whether you’ve been murdered by knife, bludgeon or gun? There are other, more reliable, indicators of violent crime than the presence of a gun. You’re being obtuse.

            • Bluesman1950

              The UK intentional homicide rate only ‘spiked’ in 2003, when the crimes of mass murderer Dr Harold Shipman came to light and all his offences were counted in the same year. The 2007 London terrorist bombings caused a similar spike.

              Over recent years, the number of currently recorded homicides has shown a general downward trend and the number for the year ending March 2015 (518) was the lowest since 1983 (482).

              In the year ending March 2015, 21 homicide victims (4% of the total) were killed by shooting, 8 fewer than the previous year and the lowest number since 1980 (19 homicides).

              http://www . ons . gov . uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide#summary

              The UK homicide count did not level off after 2003. It declined steadily.

              You are being obtuse or dishonest.

              • jarhead1982

                What blueballs refuses to admit is that the actual numbers in the home office database are only those of the cases ruled upon and closed versus the actual numbers of homicides still open as evidenced in the coroners data so reality is the data is skewed by the intentional changes to the rules governing coroners reporting changed in 1998….

                • charley bigtime

                  Lol at the redneck turd who lost the argument and can’t take it.

                  • jarhead1982

                    Aw another obamabagger binky bobber chiming in saying and proving nothing

                    • charley bigtime

                      Lol at the racist turd who lost the argument and can’t take it.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Aw the race card always played by the racist bigoted left when they have nothing, which is 24/7/365

                      • charley bigtime

                        Lol at the racist turd who lost the argument and can’t take it.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Sure thing bagger

                      • charley bigtime


                      • jarhead1982


                      • charley bigtime


                      • jarhead1982

                        Derp derp guffy

                      • charley bigtime


                      • jarhead1982

                        derp derp derp guffy

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “jarhead1982 charley bigtime • 23 minutes ago
                        derp derp derp guffy”

                        That’s one of the most intelligent things Jarheadcase has said!

                      • charley bigtime

                        I have absolutely no doubt of that. I’m surprised people of such mentality have advanced to even that level. I think we should dangle a coors lite in front of him and see what tricks he can do for us.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Considering a known anti gunphaggit creates multiple accounts to support his own claims up vote himself and lies, one must communicate at the imbeciles intellect level to convey we are onto their pathetic smoke and bs

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Multiple accounts! Who does that remind me of? Upvotes himself . Sounds familiar! Lies without any evidence. Guess who!

                        Accuses others of being paedophiles on the run from the law. I wonder why??

                      • jarhead1982

                        We understand you are getting so upset with no one supporting your lies you created another account to support ypur lied and up vote yourself

                        That’s how all antigunphaggots portray there are more of you than the pitiful few there actually are

                      • Jeff Extreme

                        I apologize on behalf of all Americans for this imbecile jarhead and everything that he types. We aren’t all insane like him.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Thanks Jeff, I agree with that (as long as you don’t elect Trump!)

                      • charley bigtime


                      • jarhead1982

                        QED pedo

                      • charley bigtime


                      • jarhead1982

                        QED pedo puffer

                      • charley bigtime


                        I win.

                      • jarhead1982

                        QED rosebud lapper wins the chance to lick Obamas butt

                  • jarhead1982

                    Ah which split personality anti gunphaggitterd are you guffy….

                • Bluesman1950

                  Complete NRA propaganda lies. All homicides are classified as such immediately they become apparent.

                  A recorded murder can be reclassified only if there is conclusive evidence to establish that it was not actually a murder but, e.g. natural causes, or where somebody is e.g. tried for murder but acquitted on the grounds of self-defence, in which case it becomes lawful homicide and not murder.

                  take, for example the case of Harold Frederick Shipman. He was a British GP and one of the most prolific serial killers in recorded history. On 31 January 2000, a jury found Shipman guilty of 15 murders, but an inquiry after his conviction confirmed he was responsible for at least 218. The statistics record all 218 murders, not just the 15 of which he was convicted.

                  The tired old lie that the UK only records a murder when somebody is convicted has been endlessly repeated by US gun nuts, but it is as ridiculous and untrue as when it was first spewed out.

                  • jarhead1982

                    So sad when one reviews the uk coroners reports and sees that blueballs is lying, but then anti gunphaggits lie 24/7/365

                    • Bluesman1950

                      And where exactly are the “links to government cites” that you always claim to want. Show us the UK Coroners statistics which prove that unsolved killings are not classified as homicides.

                      • jarhead1982

                        Your country your problem liar

                      • Bluesman1950

                        No, your lies, your problem!

                        “So sad when one reviews the uk coroners reports and sees that blueballs is lying, but then anti gunphaggits lie 24/7/365”

                        You make a ridiculous claim, with no evidence at all. Show us the review of UK coroners reports. I doubt you have even looked at the UK Coroners statistics. I have and they give no support whatsoever to your nonsense.

                        Your lies are now so obvious that i really can’t be bothered to wast more time disproving them. What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You are dismissed liar.

                      • jarhead1982

                        You’re the one afraid to post the numbers from the UK coroners reports on homicides …

                        Why is that the data in the UK coroners report is so much higher than the home office data eh liar….

                        But hey still waiting for you to prove how removing guns from less than 1% of the law abiding population reduced violence as you infer

                        All while you refuse to provide one valid shred of proper govt cite that lawful gun owners are the problem eh liar…

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Why is that the data in the UK coroners report is so much higher than the home office data eh liar….”

                        Why is it that you can’t post any evidence that it is?

                • OneBadStud

                  You’re saying that the Labour government of Tony Blair would mislead the public? I’m shocked.

                  • Bluesman1950

                    He is, but he is, as usual, just making stuff up with nothing to support it!

              • OneBadStud

                “It declined steadily”. The US had a decade’s long crime wave that peaked in ’92. Since that time, 100,000,000 guns were added to civilian gun stocks and crime hasn’t been this low since the early sixties. You’re confusing correlation with causation. The murder rate increases and declines at the same rate of ice cream consumption. You wouldn’t say that ice cream is the cause, would you? No. I’ll say it again, there are more accurate and reliable indicators of violent crime than the mere presence of a gun. A gun in the pocket of a man going to church isn’t as dangerous as the gun in the pocket of a man going out to buy drugs.

                • Bluesman1950

                  Fotunately, in the UK, you will normally find that neither the drug pusher or church-goer are armed, so we feel even safer, even if a row breaks out over who should sit in which pew, as it did in Pennsylvania!
                  http://www . nydailynews . com/news/crime/churchgoer-killed-fight-seat-sunday-service-article-1.2618098

                  I’m sorry that you feel unable to deal with people with whose views you disagree and which you interpret as arrogance, but that is your problem, not mine.

                  • OneBadStud

                    Feelings of safety are not a substitute for arguments on policy. You’ve been unable to refute the substance of the argument with any credible statistical evidence. You’ve mislead, quibbled about inconsequential details and avoided taking on the meat of the matter, which is, gun control measures have a negligible effect on overall intentional homicide rates. As evidenced with your devolving argument with Jarhead 1982, you’ve no intention of challenging your own biases or “deal with people who’s views you disagree” in any serious manner. You want to win a flame war, not find any answers.

                    • Bluesman1950

                      We not only feel safer, we are safer. We are nearly 4 times less likely to be murdered, almost 3 times less likely to require hospital treatment for assault and over 30 times less likely to suffer a gunshot injury.

                      Check out the mass shooting tracker website. http://www . gunviolencearchive . org/reports/mass-shooting

                      So far, in the first week of August there have been 10 incidents in which 4 or more people were shot, 3 of them just yesterday, a total of 12 dead and 29 injured. In the UK just one such incident would be national headline news for weeks, sparking calls for further controls. Those cases are just the mass shootings, contributing to your average of 30 firearms homicides each day!

                      You accuse me of having “avoided taking on the meat of the matter, which is, gun control measures have a negligible effect on overall intentional homicide rates.” when it is abundantly clear that you are avoiding the meat of the matter which is that it is far easier to kill people if you have a firearm. particularly one with a large capacity and long range, than it is with anything else generally available to the civilian population.

                      The UK has never had a culture of widespread firearms ownership and the extra restrictions placed following the 3 massacres we did experience over a period of some 30 years, all committed by legal gun owners. just reduced still further the possibility of another such tragedy. In the UK, gun control works.

                      The fact that large numbers of your diverse, violent and socially strained population carry tfirearms is a recipe for the disaster that unfolds daily on your streets and in your homes.

                      • OneBadStud

                        Those rates didn’t change because of your gun control measures. Our violent crime rate was always 3-4X higher, primarily due to our “diverse, violent and socially strained population”. Exclude blacks and Hispanics from the statistics and we’re as safe as any country in Europe… Gun control measures have a negligible effect on intentional homicide rates. Culture and breeding practices have everything to do with it. Don’t your north western English or Highland Scots have higher rates of violent crime? That’s where our rednecks originated.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We have had firearms controls for over a century. The more recent ones just served to reduce the chances of one of the rare outrages even further. They are unlikely to make any difference day to day.

                        “Exclude blacks and Hispanics from the statistics and we’re as safe as any country in Europe.”
                        Exclude all our UK murderers from the statistics and we have no murders at all! That is not how statistics work however.

                        Your Blacks and Hispanics are Americans too and still your problem.

                      • OneBadStud

                        Again, you say that in the UK, gun control works. You can’t provide statistical evidence of your claim because the homicide rate was trending downward, spiked upwards and then resumed it’s downward trend. There was no measurable effect. Look at the graph, for God’s sake!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        It has worked for 100 years, with more recent refinements. 59 down to 29, no, no measurable effect!

                      • OneBadStud

                        That’s 59 to 20 gun related homicides. Again, the overall homicide rate remains untouched. I’ve got to hand it to you, you’re a rock. I’m arguing with a rock.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Gun homicides reduced by over 60% = gun laws don’t work! OK!

                      • W. S.

                        Either you are just arguing for the sake of winning the argument… or you are just plain stupid…

                        It doesn’t matter how you get killed. If you are dead, you are dead… (In fact being shot might be preferable)

                        What YOU are saying is that gun control works for gun crime…

                        What HE is saying is that murder is not reduced, just the method… Numbskull!

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “What HE is saying is that murder is not reduced, just the method… Numbskull!”
                        Actually, murders have been reduced!
                        http://www . ons . gov . uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide#case-outcomes

                        The Home Office Homicide Index showed there were 518 homicides (murder, manslaughter and infanticide) in the year ending March 2015 in England and Wales. This represents a decrease of 5 offences (1%) from the 523 recorded for the previous year.
                        Over recent years, the number of currently recorded homicides has shown a general downward trend and the number for the year ending March 2015 (518) was the lowest since 1983 (482).

                        Latest figures from the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) showed that, for the offences it covers, there were an estimated 6.8 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over). This is a 7% decrease compared with the previous year’s survey, and the lowest estimate since the CSEW began in 1981

                        Gun control did not start in 1997 in the UK, but in 1903 (The Pistols Act), or 1824, (The Vagrancy Act) depending on your interpretation of ‘gun control’. That control has kept our firearms homicide rate several orders of magnitude lower than that of the USA. The very heavy penalties more recently introduced for unlawful possession of firearms have reduced the incidence of firearms crime substantially as 5 years for simple possession is not seen as worth the risk.

                        Try looking at the actual statistics, rather than flinging silly insults.

                      • OneBadStud

                        Absurd argument, one that I already addressed. The homicide rate in America has steadily declined EVEN THOUGH CIVILIANS HAVE BOUGHT 100,000,000 NEW GUNS

                      • Gray

                        So what are you saying, that it was better when the lowest number of Americans had carry permits, 1980? With a murder rate of 10.7 per 100,000?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        We were safer in the UK then and we are safer now.

                      • Gray

                        So we should stop doing what has been working here to reduce crime because you feel safer over there?

                      • Bluesman1950

                        You don’t have to. Do what you want. Just don’t fall, for the lie that we are less safe because we have fewer guns.

                • lee

                  A guy with a gun went to church in South Carolina… He murdered a bunch of people.

                  • OneBadStud

                    And what are the probabilities that a man goes into a church and murders a bunch of people versus a man with a gun going into a drug house, Lee? Really, answer that for me. Why would Sears and Montgomery Ward sell firearms to children if it was so dangerous to do so? Was it always this way? When my father was born, 90% of Americans regularly went to church. Homicide rates were a fraction of what they are now. When did Americans begin to believe our nation wasn’t of kith and kin but some kind of notional creation? When did individual rights come before duties and obligations?

                    • lee

                      Who cares about probability it happened. The nation was created on shii… So nothing but more shii will come. Individual rights only apply to some citizens. Most minorities don’t enjoy those rights. The nation was never equal, and therefore those duties you speak of… Don’t matter

                      • OneBadStud

                        Excuse me. I thought you were trying to make a point. Stick to sports, genius.

    • Typical

      Guns make it easier to cause mass violence.
      Can’t recall the last time someone with a nice went into a gay club and knifed 100 people killing 50 can you?
      No guns and no mass shootings or mass killing sprees in the scale and frequency as to where there is access to guns.
      Prove me wrong.

      • jarhead1982

        Like the japanese moron killing 19 and injuring over 30 last week with a knife, do tell….. KNIVES CAUSE VIOLENCE


        June 3 1982, Li Chihang 5 dead 43 injured Shamshiupo Hong Kong

        July 10 1995 DongChi 2 dead 16 injured Meihikou China

        Apr 1 1996 WangXiangjun 7 Dead 5 injured Meitian China

        Aug 1998 Lu Xiaoxi 2 dead 15 injured Henan China

        Sep 14 1998 Lin Peiging 23 injured Hejiang County China

        Nov 26 , 2002 Shi Ruoqi 5 killed 2 injured Huaji Cnty China

        Mar 7, 2003 Xie Zhongcai, 24, 8 injured Beihai China

        Sep 11,2004 YangGuozhu ,28 injured Suzhou China

        Sep 20, 2004 Jia Qingyo, 25 injured Ying County China

        Sep 30, 2004 Liu Hongwen 4 dead 12 injured Linwu County China

        Aug 4, 2004 Xu 1 dead, 7 injured Beijing China

        Nov 26, 2004 Yan Yamming 9 dead 3 injured Ruzhou China

        Dec. 3, 2004 Liu Zhigang 12 injured Panshi China

        Oct 12, 2005 Liu Shibing 18 injured Liudong China

        May 8 2006 Bai Ningyang 12 dead 5 injured Shiguan China

        May 24, 2006 Yang Xinlong 35, 2 dead 2 injured Louying China

        Jun 13, 2007 Su Qianxiao 42, 1 dead 3 inured Chiling China

        Jul 20, 2007 Quyang Songde 19 injured Foshan China

        Sept 13, 2007 Kuang Xi 28, 1 dead 5 injured Hengyang China

        Mar 3 2009, Xu Ximei 40, 2 dead 4 injured Mazhan China

        March 23, 2010 Zheng Minsheng The Nanping school massacre 8 killed 5 wounded

        Apr 13, 2010 Yang Jiaqin 40, 2 dead 5 injured Xichang China

        Apr 28, 2010 Chen Kangbing Hongfu Primary School 17 injured Leihzhou China

        Apr 29, 2010 Yuan Zhangxuan 17 injured Dangchang County China

        Apr 29, 2010 Xu Yuyuan 32 injured Taixing China

        Apr 30, 2010 WangYonglai 45, 1 dead 6 injured Weifang China

        May 12, 2010 Wu Huanming, 48, 10 killed 11 injured Hanzhong, Shaanxi

        August 3 2010 Fang Jiantang 3 killed 16 injured Zibo, Shandong province China

        Aug 29, 2011 woman 30 8 injured Shanghai China

        Sept 14, 2011 WangHongbin, 4 dead 2 injured Gongyi China

        Aug 2, 2012 Xinhua teenager killed 9 people and wounded 4-

        Sept 21, 2012 Guangxi. Wu Yechang An ax-wielding man killed 3 wounded 13

        Dec 14, 2012 Min Yongiun Chenpeng China 24 injured

        Dec 16, 2012 Suthat Wannasarn 3 dead

        March 8 2013 Xianjiang, 4 killed 11 injured at shopping mall

        May 22, 2013 6 students & teacher wounded in a cleaver attack after school

        June 7, 2013, BEIJING — Chinese man set a fire on a commuter bus Xiamen, leaving 47 people dead including himself, Chinese state media reported. 34 injured.

        June 20, 2013 Another accidental explosion, hmmm, really?

        June 28, 2013 Chinese officials say 36 people were killed after a fight broke out during a police investigation of suspected criminals in the latest act of violence in the restive northwest province of Xinjiang

        July 29, 2013 Shenzen Province 3 dead 3 injured

        July 2013 Henan Province 5 dead, 3 injured

        July 2013 Guangxi 2 dead

        July 31, 2013 Hong Kong 11 injured

        Aug 26 2013 Beijing 1 dead 3 wounded, all knives, hmm!

        Sept 23, 2013 Hunan Province, Changsha Hospital 3 injured

        November 6, 2013 china-explosions-

        July29, 2014 Xinjiang Dozens killed and wounded

        Sept 1, 2014 China Dongfang Primary School in Hubei province, 3 killed 6 wounded

        Nov 20, 2014, Bedaihe China, Military Clinic, 7 dead

        October 27, 2013 BEIJING (Reuters) – 2 men from Muslim-dominated Xinjiang on Tuesday after three people suspected to be from the restive region drove a SUV into a crowd at Tiananmen Square and set it on fire.

        • Typical

          Have you turned into the gun nut equivalent of black lives matter?
          #knives Cause Violence.
          Newsflash mate. Guns cause violence too. Shh, don’t tell anyone.
          China isn’t the us.
          The us holds itself above everyone else.
          Thinks it’s the beacon of hope and all that’s right.
          The world standard and other American rhetoric that isn’t true.
          So you can compare apples to oranges but China is a very oppressed society that hasn’t caught up to modern day and the us is a modern day society that has education for all (but only used by some) access to knowledge and years of stumbling and rising to find out what is right and what is wrong.
          Which one has the bigger gun crime problem?
          Which one has a mass shooting epidemic?
          Which one has a gun crime problem so big that since jfk was assassinated more people have been killed on its streets by guns than all the soldiers in every war America has ever been in?
          Which has a gun crime problem so big that its neighbour Canada with probably more guns per head has fat far fewer deaths or injuries.
          I expect to be given ‘stats’ on battle axe deaths of the 13th century to prove why battle axes are dangerous, as if we didn’t know, and mass shootings are a-ok in America.
          In the rest of the world bad but in America no problem.

          • jarhead1982

            SMH, they are gun ban paradise, so guess all that violent schiite happens without guns…..kinda destroys your pathetic rants….

            Also rather sorry for you moron, as you never do post the video of a gun loading, aiming, and pulling its own trigger or admit youre bat schiite crazy inferring GUNS ARE ALIVE AND CAUSE VIOLENCE, but please do keep on proving your insanity by just squealing in impotent rage as you always do…..

            • Typical

              You walked right into my trap.
              I knew you’d say something along the lines of me thinking guns are alive.
              You do realise that I used your words against you so you must’ve been inferring that knives are alive with you anti knife (but oddly pro gun violence) crusade.
              More projecting your insanity.
              Look at the post you make and how often.
              Prudent insane gun nut

              • jarhead1982

                Since all you anti gun terrorists do is blame the inanimate object it’s obvious you do

            • Typical

              You’ve resorted to ad hominem and personal attacks.
              If you had an argument and if I hadn’t stumped you you wouldn’t need to resort to those tactics but instead would counter my points.
              Think about that.

              • jarhead1982

                Since facts logic and reality don’t penetrate that empty skull of yours one must climb down one million rungs of evolutionary ladder to communicate in a fashion your negative IQ intellect can comprehend, mission successful liar

                • Typical

                  You’re doing everything to avoid talking about the topic at hand instead resorting to personal attacks.
                  Very telling

        • Typical

          I see the bodies of two teens that were shot was found today.
          A single bullet in the head of both of them.
          Must be a day that ends in y.
          Obviously if they had been stabbed it would’ve been worse.
          Bet they were glad they was only shot right?
          Thankfully they had the right to bear arms and guns are plentiful to save themselves.
          That really helped them.

          • jarhead1982

            Yeah, horrible how leftist thuggstas like you are left to roam free and kill like that eh…..

            • Typical

              Leftist thugs?
              That’s very right wing of you.
              How very national socialist

              • jarhead1982

                Sorry since USDOJ data proves 30% of the population not white commit 87% of all the violent crimes and that 30% votes 95% demokrap, it is what it is thuggsta

                • Typical

                  What are you talking about now?
                  I never mentioned people’s son colour or rates of crime committed per race.
                  Are you grasping at straws to win any argument even if you’re arguing with yourself or are you having a meltdown?

                  • jarhead1982

                    Aw we see you’re to illiterate to comprehend where the logic and facts are derived for assigning the proper descriptor of the violent proclivity of a subset of our culture ( violent thuggsta Demokraps = lefties like you) sucks to be you thuggsta

                    • Typical

                      I’m not a yank.
                      I’m not a democrat.
                      Pisses all over your nonsense.
                      Using a thesaurus and pusedo-science does not make you clever as your words show.
                      So where will you turn the conversation in desperation now…

                • Bluesman1950

                  Neither of those unsupported assertions true, but never mind, nothing new!

                  • jarhead1982

                    Aw, so you got nothing, as always…

      • jarhead1982


        Hey, lets review how many mass shootings in gun free paradises we have eh!

        Location Number killed Date

        Garissa University Kenya 147 4/2/2015

        Pakistan Military school 142 12/15/14

        Paris France 128 11/14/15

        Norway attacks 77 7/22/2011

        Westgate Mall, Nairobi Kenya 67 9/21/2013

        Grozny Chechnya 60 2/5/2000

        Gyeongsagnam-do, South Korea 57 4/27/1982

        Agricultural College, Potiskum Nigeria 50 9/29/2013

        Boipatong S Africa 45 6/17/1992

        Ayotzinapa teaching college, Iguala Mexico 43 September 26, 2014

        Yobe State Boarding School Nigeria 42 2/25/14

        Zhaodong China 42 11/18/1995

        Port Aurthur, Australia 35 4/28/1996

        Marikana S Africa 34 8/16/2012

        VA Tech 33 4/16/2007

        Bacha Khan University Charsadda Pakistan 30 1/20/16

        Cave of the Patriarchs, Hebron Israel 29 2/24/1994

        Bisho, Ciskei, S Africa 29 7/9/1992

        Sandy Hook 28 12/14/2012

        Tunisia 28 6/26/15

        Kampala Uganda 26 6/26/1994

        Offa, Karwa Nigeria 26 12/21/2013

        Mubi Adamawa Nigeria 25 10/3/2012

        Luby’s Cafeteria 24 10/16/1991

        Beijing China 23 9/20/1994

        Splendid Hotel Ougadougou Burkina Faso 23 1/16/2016

        Taizz Yemen 22 3/25/1994

        San Ysidro Massacre 22 7/18/1984

        Tunis Tunisia 21 3/18/2015

        Aureti Uganda 21 4/15/1983

        Igbo Town Hall meeting Adamawa Nigeria 20 

        Mogadishu Somalia 20 1/22/2016

        Baluchistan Pakistan 20 04/11/2015

        Dhaka Bangladesh 20 7/1/2016

        Johannesburg S Africa 19 3/28/1994

        Dunblane, Scotland 18 3/13/1996

        Erfurt, Germany 18 4/26/2002

        Trincomalee Sri Lanka 17 8/4/2006

        Hungerford, UK 17 8/19/1987

        Cuers, France 17 Sep-95

        Nshii Rwanda 17 11/6/1995

        Kandahar, Afghanistan 16 3/11/2012

        Texas Tower Sniper 16 8/1/1966

        Winnenden, Germany 16 3/11/2009

        Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal 15 12/6/1989

        Columbine High 15 4/20/1999

        Edmond, OK 15 8/20/1986

        Zug, Switzerland 15 9/27/2001

        Meet Al Attar Egypt 15 8/21/2013

        Yueyang & Xima China 15 11/18/2004

        Dayukou China 14 10/26/2001

        Aramoana, New Zealand 14 11/13/1990

        Binghampton, NY 14 4/3/2009

        Luxiol, France 14 Jul-89

        Kamwenge Uganda 14 12/26/1994

        Fort Hood 13 11/5/2009

        Cumbria, England 13 6/2/2010

        Buenos Aires Argentina 13 6/20/1973

        Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 13 4/7/2011

        Velika Ivanca, Serbia 13, 4/8/2013

        Allaipiddy Sri Lanka 13 5/13/2006

        Bahir Dar Ethiopia 12 5/15/2013

        Liuhe & Tonghua China 12 9/24/2006

        Bamako, Mali 12 8/8/2015

        Aurora, CO 12 7/20/2012

        Azerbaijan State Oil Academy 12 4/30/2009

        Paris France 12 1/7/2015

        Emsdetten Germany 11 11/6/2006

        Cologne Germany 11 6/11/1964

        Cape Town SAfrica 11 7/25/1993

        East London S Africa 11 2/9/2002

        Chassarda Pakistan 10 4/5/2015

        McClendon, AL 10 3/10/2009

        Kauhajoki, Finland 10 9/23/2008

        GMAC, FL 10 6/18/1990

        Bait-al-Aqari Yemen 10 5/30/2008

        Red Lake, MN 10 3/21/2005

        Adelaide, Australia 10 9/6/1991

        Lyon France 10, 3/19/2009

        Siakago Kenya 10 11/6/2010

        Pakele & Gogonya Uganda 10 3/9/2013

        Nanterre France 9 2/27/2002

        Port Harcourt Nigeria 9 4/4/2015

        Jerusalem, Israel 9 6/6/2008

        Maiduguri, Nigeria 9 6/8/2013

        Tatarstan Russia 9 5/4/1992

        Uhersky Brod Czechozlovakia 9 2/24/15

        Seapoint S Africa 9 1/20/2003

        Ladysmith S Africa 9 1/20/1992

        Murisuvil Sri Lanka 8 12/20/2000

        Toulouse/Mounteban, France 8 3/11/12 to 3/21/12

        Mor Hungary 8 5/9/2002

        Edmonton Canada 8 12/30/14

        Sana’a, Yemen 8 3/30/1997

        Auchi Nigeria 7 11/27/2012

        Tuusula Finland 7 11/7/2007

        Naples Italy 7 9/18/2009

        Turin Italy 7 10/15/2002

        Gomarankadawala Sri Lanka 6 4/23/2006

        Alphen aan den Rijn Netherlands 6 4/9/2011

        Liege Belgium 6 12/13/2011 (125 wounded)

        Pesalai Sri Lanka 6 6/17/2006

        Belgorod Russia 6 4/22/2013

        Moscow Russia 6 12/11/2012

        Belgrade Serbia 5 7/1/2016

        Berlin Switzerland 5 5/10/2015

        Touluse France 5 3/19/2012

        Moscow Russia 5 11/7/ 2012

        Moscow oblast 5 12/4/2013

        Gangwon Province S Korea 5 6/21/14

        Brussels Belgium 4 5/27/2014

        Tours France 4 10/29/2001

        Espoo Finland 4 12/31/2009

        Carmen de Patagones, Argentina 4 9/28/2004

        Beirut, Lebanon 4 1/25/2007

        GROSSPRIEL, Austria 4 9/18/2013

        Balashinka Russia 4 4/23/2007 (home made pistol)

        Ottawa CA 4 1/22/2016

        Bamrungsart Pondock Scool Thailand 3 Mar 18, 2007

        Nenzig Austria 3 5/22/2016

        Aarhus Denmark 3 4/5/1994

        Liege Belgium 3 12/13/2011

        Rotterdam Netherlands 3 4/11/2009

        Freising Germany 3 2/19/2002

        Geneva Switzerland 3 2/17/2013

        Daillon Switzerland 3 1/3/2013

        SeeJong City S Korea 3 2/25/15

        Gothenburg Sweden 2 3/19/2015

        Dawson College shooting, Quebec Canada 2 9/13/2006

        Café shooting Sydney Australia 2 12/15/14

        Bucharest Romania 2 3/5/2012

        Montessori Daycare Quebec Canada 1, April 15, 2013

        W. R. Myers High School in Taber, Alberta, Canada 1 April 28, 1999

        The world 2,157 dead in 124 incidents = 17.395 dead per

        Why is it the average number of dead in mass shootings in gun free zones in the world, is higher than in the US….hmmmmm

        Funny how this is only the tip of the iceberg for all those mass shootings in all those gun ban paradises eh!

        If we included all the mass attacks in those gun ban paradises where guns were not used…..its rather frightening how VIOLENT those gun ban paradises truly are…….

        Based on you anti gunterds claims guns are the root cause of violence, and those countries have 1/7th the number of guns we do, then why aren’t your incidents and deaths not 1/7th of the US eh MORONS?

        A quick perusal by even the most numerically challenged shows that the US only has 3 of the top 25 shootings. And out of the top 36 we only account for 11 incidents and 17.3% of the dead.

        • Typical

          You have issues.
          But well done for avoiding the issue and not responding to the points made instead desperately trying to move the discussion onto stunting else not relevant that you’ve cherry picked to answer a question no-one asked that had no relevance.
          How many mass shootings does the us have compared to other countries?
          I echoey you to avoid this like you avoided my last post and come up with some irrelevant wall of text about how many British soldiers shot Germans in WW2 or something else unrelated.
          You should be a politician.

          • jarhead1982

            Youre a proven pathological liar, end of story

            • Typical

              How? How am I a proven pathological liar?
              You haven’t proven anything and I suspect you have no idea what a pathological liar is though you’ll be off to Google to find out so you can act like you do.

              • jarhead1982

                You support gun control, which is a lie as it never reduces violence and all anti gunphaggits claim it does, end of story

                • Typical

                  It reduces gun violence and mass murders as proven by the reduction in gun crime and mass murders.
                  And suicide.
                  So it does reduce violence as proven.
                  End of discussion

    • PatBryanTX2

      Presumptuous falsified garbage.

      • OneBadStud

        I verified the author’s statistics, myself.

        • Jeff Extreme

          please share

    • Bob_Hearns

      Well, the article is wrong about Australia. I checked various sources. I’m not going to bother with the others. Another article filled with misinformation

    • Peter Stevens

      Realistically speaking isn’t most gun violence just gangsters killing gangsters? It may sound callous but are thugs and criminals killing each other in itself really that big of an issue? These aren’t the kind of upstanding citizens who have jobs, raise well-adjusted children, and contribute to the overall health and well-being of society.

      • tedb120

        yup…….But for Obama its reason to take your guns and if HRC is elected it will happen….

        • smartalek

          America’s rightwing nutjobs — delusional, ineducable, and stubborn as mules.
          Obama was “going to take our guns,” and of course never did.
          So now Hillary’s “going to take our guns.”
          And when she doesn’t, in the eight years of her Presidency, it will be the next “Democrap” who’s “going to take our guns.”
          Most gullible creatures on the planet — and now they’re all voting for one of the very people who have exported their jobs to Mexico, China, and the rest of the east!
          It’s a minor miracle that these people can even dress themselves every day.

      • Just need to get the good people out and then wall the thugs in and let them take care of the rest. When the dust clears, bulldoze and rebuild!

      • Bluesman1950

        “Realistically speaking isn’t most gun violence just gangsters killing gangsters?”

        Maybe most, but by no means all.

        http://www . gunviolencearchive .org/reports/child-injured-killed

    • Gremlin Le

      Here is theory I read from book on why crime dropped dramatically. Some might find this highly offensive but think of Roe vs Wade and the legalization of abortion. I’m not going to detail why poverty and crime correlate but you get the idea.

    • DutchS

      Pretty much all gun murderers display precursory violence first. So here’s the plan. No registry. No restrictions of weapons or magazines. BUT, commit any act of aggression, no matter how trivial, and you lose your right to own a gun. Domestic violence, child abuse, animal abuse, stalking, vandalism, road rage, drunk and disorderly, and of course any crime whatsoever, your guns are history. They constitute grounds for a search warrant to find and take your guns. And we punch a hole in your ID so everyone knows not to sell to you. Commit a gun crime and you’re history.

      But keep your nose clean, keep your temper, and keep your hands off other people, and you can have enough weapons to outfit a battalion if you want. And zero paperwork. Nobody needs to know. What could be fairer?

      • OneBadStud

        Most of those are felonies and being convicted of a felony is an automatic forfeiture of gun rights in any state.

    • lhecker51

      “If you want to change society, you have to actually change the whole of society.”

      True. The problem is we are going the way of the Roman Empire. The train has left the station and is now at top speed and cannot stop in time to avoid the collapse of the rule of law without immediate action that our leaders do not have the stomach nor the backbone to take that action until it is too late.

      I have not only read about what happens to the weakest and most vulnerable during a collapse of society, I have witnessed it first hand as a member of multinational peacekeeping forces. They bleed the most.

      Knowing these facts, I can neither confirm nor deny that I have taken common sense and rational precautions to defend myself and family and can sustain for two years.

      When one needs the means to defend ones self, it is already too late. Collapse of the rule of law happens in some cases in a matter of hours, in others, a matter of days. In hindsight, history has proven there were MANY signs of the impending collapse, yet still people either did not have the means to prepare or thought the government would protect them. For a significant number of them, that assumption proved fatal.

      If one considers themselves a rational and critical thinker, they would be left with tow options:

      Prepare or not to prepare.

      To prepare and the crisis never materializes, you lose nothing.

      To not prepare and the crisis materializes, it could be a fatal mistake.

    • Let’sBeFriends

      a) I didn’t abandon anything, I noted it as a amusing aside but I never presented it as a main reason of anything.

      b1) Except nothing in that chart proves the crack epidemic bottoming out didn’t play a part in the drastic drop of crime at all, it still in fact shows the steep drop at the time of it winding down and Clinton’s bill pumping more resources into law enforcement.
      b2) Homicides are lowest since the 1960s, not a century; while overall gun crime has remained static for the past couple of decades and suicides are up.

      Nice try though.

      And again, mass shootings still have increased. I didn’t even cite whatever study you’re talking about, since there’s many that come to the same conclusion drawing from multiple sources:

      And not only are they happening with more frequency, but the USA just came out of the worst mass shooting EVER. But everything is fine because gun crime is “low” and Breitbart says so!

      But sure, every person and their dog being armed is totally what stopped gun related crime in countries like Australia. Except wait, no, that’s not how it happened at all.
      Regardless, the main problem is that arms are still finding their ways into the hands of citizens who are not law abiding. I don’t believe a total gun ban could ever be implement, but more rationale legislation so that you can’t have someone who’s on a terrorist watch list get an assault rifle to mow down dozens of people within a short time span.

      Also LOL homeboy is a racial slur now? Could you be any more obvious trying to go for a cheap emotional point score after being solidly riposted? Please don’t debase yourself.

    • Matt

      I wonder how much the decrease in murder rate is due to gang bangers running out of other gang bangers to kill?

      • RubyMontana

        That’s worth some statistical analysis!

    • Let’sBeFriends

      “First off, violence started increasing in the mid-60’s, long before crack.”

      a) I’m not saying the crack epidemic was a sole factor, I’m saying it was one of them. Nothing can be distilled down to one singular factor, anyone trying to do so is a disingenuous idiot.
      b) You’re looking at the completely wrong part of the chart. It doesn’t matter when violence started, this is about what made it begin to decrease. Look at where it dips dramatically – the mid 90’s.

      “Many argue that the meth and heroin epidemics we experience today are far worse than crack ever was. “

      The difference between meth and crack is that meth is far more cheaper which is why it took the wind out of crack’s sails in the 90’s. Will meth and heroin get to such bad levels on terms of users? Potentially, but it won’t ever be as bad on a law enforcement level.

      “Yet our homicide rate is the lowest in over 50 years.”

      Just because something drops from being astronomically high, that doesn’t mean it’s objectively low. ‘The rate of which I pick my nose is the lowest it’s been in 30 years since I was a kid, but I still pick my nose regularly.’

      And while the gun homicide and violence rate may be static (while suicides are up), mass shootings have still tripled in the last 5 years:

      “The only possible conclusion is more guns does not lead to more crime – it may, in fact, discourage criminals to know many more of their potential victims may be armed.”

      Homeboy, police officers got sniped literally days ago.

      • jarhead1982

        And all you have is conjecture and wishful thinking (oxymoron for anti gun phaggits as they haven’t a brain) as always

    • tedb120

      the FACT is “gun crime” has been dropping in the US since the 80s and most of it is now in places where you could not even legally own a gun

      • Corruption_Eruption

        Lol, like Chicago? DC? The FACT is Chiraq (more likely to get shot in Chicago than Iraq) has the strictest gun laws in the country and has the highest violent firearm crime rate. Give it a rest.

        • tedb120

          I agree…and yet the gun grab idiots try to tell us its the local guns that are legal that make a difference…total BS of course

        • tedb120

          If Hillary is elected we can kiss our gun rights goodbye….

          here is Obama on the 2nd and HRC agrees.

          Obama quote

          “We know that other countries, in response to one mass shooting, have been able to craft laws that almost eliminate mass shootings. Friends of ours, allies of ours — Great Britain, Australia, countries like ours. So we know there are ways to prevent it.”

          UK gun confiscation that Obama wants for the USA – here is how the UK did it

          “Rifles and pistols have been individually registered as such on personal Firearm Certificates in Britain since 1920, and magazine-fed shotguns with a capacity over three shots since 1988. Firearm Certificates, giving individual permission to possess specific serial numbered weapons, are subject to renewal by the police every five years (formerly every three years). At renewal, the police may make individual judgements about which particular firearms an owner will be allowed to retain, on the basis of recorded regularity of use, etc.

          When the 1997 ban was implemented, the police had a complete list of every licensed pistol: unless one exported the weapon (and could prove it) or could satisfy the police that one had somehow destroyed it, one had no option but to hand it in. Every holder of licensed pistols received a letter from his local police authority, detailing when and where his registered weapons were to be surrendered. I rather doubt that many copies of those letters are still extant, and I cannot offer other references for what happened because it was simply not a matter for discussion: it was the obvious and inevitable way the system worked.”

          • Bluesman1950

            Which is probably why you are 36 times less likely to be shot in the UK than the USA (and that ratio does take into account our differing population sizes!).

            • tedb120

              and why break ins at night are 9 X more likely

              no armed homeowner to fear….

              • Bluesman1950

                Sorry, another NRA myth! You are about 50% more likely to suffer burglary in the USA than the UK

                United Kingdom:

                “The police record an offence of burglary if a person enters any building as a trespasser and with intent to commit an offence of theft, GBH or unlawful damage. Aggravated burglary occurs when the burglar is carrying a firearm, imitation firearm, offensive weapon or explosive.” (UGHOCS, page 26, paragraph 9.)

                United States:

                “The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines burglary as the unlawful entry of a structure to commit a felony or theft. To classify an offense as a burglary, the use of force to gain entry need not have occurred. The UCR Program has three subclassifications for burglary: forcible entry, unlawful entry where no force is used, and attempted forcible entry. The UCR definition of “structure” includes apartment, barn, house trailer or houseboat when used as a permanent dwelling, office, railroad car (but not automobile), stable, and vessel (i.e., ship).” (FBI – CUS – Burglary)

                UK burglary incidences: 258,148 (THOSB – CEW page 73, paragraph 3.)

                258,148 / 561 = 460.1

                US burglary incidences: 2,188,005 (FBI – CUS)

                2,188,005 / 3116 = 702.1

                You are thus 1.52x (702.1 / 460.1) more likely to suffer burglary in the US than in the UK.

                • tedb120

                  ya sure..I am talking about HOMES…

                  • Bluesman1950

                    So, please feel free to show us the reliable statistics comparing night-time burglaries of occupied dwellings in the USA and the UK.

                • jarhead1982

                  Horrible how you cherry pick data to substantiate your pathological lies blueballs

                • mariojuggernaut22

                  That’s because the population is bigger and have many other social issues and problems.

                  • Bluesman1950

                    No it’s not because the population is bigger! The figures allow for that. By expressing the risk on a per capita basis you can compare different countries, whatever their size, be they China or Luxembourg.

                    I agree that America does have much worse social issues and problems, including the racial and economic differences and these are most likely what drive the US crime rate.

              • Bluesman1950

                Your statistics for that figure?

            • jarhead1982

              Aw that old tired anti gun phaggot lie where the imbeciles confuse criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot and then lump in law abiding civilians to make up their inherent lie

              • Bluesman1950

                And again we can wait for the figures to prove the “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot” and wait and wait and wait………………………..

                • jarhead1982

                  And again we wait for the proper govt cite to prove lawful gun owners are the problem…

                  Post any violent crime report and prove the bad guy was a lawful gun owner to begin with liar….

                  Good luck liar

                  • Bluesman1950

                    So we continue to wait for the evidence of “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot”

                    • jarhead1982

                      Andrew Papacharitos study child, on Chicago’s blood thirsty demokrap heathens and gangs but then you being a faux copper have evidence gangs are less violent than law abiding gun owners eh…

                      Where is that data eh donut whoore

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “Andrew Papacharitos study child, on Chicago’s blood thirsty demokrap heathens and gangs..”

                        It’s here: http://isps . yale . edu/node/21230#.V6TELvkrKUk
                        ’48 Years of Crime in Chicago: A Descriptive Analysis of Serious Crime Trends from 1965 to 2013′ if that is the Papchristos (actual spelling!)study to which you are clinging for support.

                        It describes the reduction in crime in Chicago over that period and mentions absolutely nothing about “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot”

                        Try another lie!

                      • jarhead1982

                        Man isn’t amazing how violent those criminals are being more likely to be shot

                      • Bluesman1950

                        900 times more likely?

                      • jarhead1982

                        But we understand you cherry picking and lying

                      • jarhead1982

                        Oh and it’s papachristos actually moron

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Not “papacharitos”?

                        So, where does he state the “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot” nonsense that you attribute to him?

                    • jarhead1982

                      I love the insanity of anti gun phaggits inferring violent gangs are less violent than law abiding gun owners….

                      Such is the evidence that mandatory incarceration of such left wing wack jobs would be a public safety service

                      • Bluesman1950

                        I love the insanity of gun phaggits stating “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot” with absolutely no evidence!

                      • jarhead1982

                        We don’t see any proper govt cites for you to prove that 36 times lie as what you cite doesn’t differentiate between law abiding and criminal and was based on a study of majority gasp criminals, end of story liar

                  • Bluesman1950

                    What like Omar Mateen, the Orlando mass killer who held a firearms permit under your crazy US system and legally purchased a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 handgun to slaughter his victims?

                    So your evidence supporting “criminals being the ones 900 times more likely to be shot”?

            • Freedomcomesfirst

              Let me chime in.

              You have clearly shown your ignorance on US gun violence.

              The vast majority of the US does not even have a gun violence problem. That is fully supported by undeniable, statistical data.

              Liberal Democrats loved the 2014 GSS poll only because of all of the major polls this one had the lowest per capita gun ownership or about 32%. Never mind the fact that Gallup and others had per capita gun ownership much higher.

              Yet when one reads into the 2014 GSS poll (really a research poll) the data posted states per capita gun ownership (about 44%) is highest in cities and towns with population of less than 10,000. There are about 16,000 of these.

              Interesting enough, our FBI’s UCR clearly shows that towns and cities of this size are the absolute safest in the country. Per capita violent crime is the lowest in the nation along with per capita homicide. I am not talking about marginal differences but differences that measure in the hundreds of percentiles.

              Just the opposite holds true for our largest cities where per capita gun ownership is the lowest (2014 GSS poll, less than 20%) yet per capita violent crime and per capita homicide is the highest in the nation, per our FBI’s UCR. Hundreds of percentiles higher.

              In the state of Vermont, where per capita gun ownership is among the highest in the nation, you can often count the total number of firearm homicides for an entire year on a single hand.
              Yet in cities with about the same population as the entire state of Vermont, with much lower per capita gun ownership, homicides will often exceed Vermont’s in a *single day*.

              Then you have the demographics of US gun violence. Young, male African Americans account for about 50% of all US homicides in any given year (FBI UCR) yet account for under 5% of the US population ( US Census).

              The one common denominator found when one reviews the extensive data is that the vast majority of US gun violence occurs in cities that have been managed and controlled by Liberal Democrats for decades. Hence, liberals are anti-gun.

              Just the opposite holds true for more conservative towns and cities, which are mostly more rural. Hence, they are pro Second Amendment.

              • Bluesman1950

                In 2010, rural small-town Vermont had a firearms homicide rate of 0.3/100k.
                In 2011 the entire UK, with all its cities, had a firearms homicide rate of 0.06/100k, 20% that of Vermont.

                You have a gun violence problem!

                • Freedomcomesfirst


                  Yet in 2009 Vermont had zero gun related homicides.

                  In the UK you have all but banned firearms!

                  You are simply deflecting from the real US gun violence in typical *liberal fashion* where we have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

                  Do you honestly believe that if you have could simply make firearms disappear by waving a magic wand that US homicides would disappear? I bet the US’s non firearm homicide rate is much higher than your entire homicide rate! This is the US. Not the UK!

                  You are simply wandering around in speculation.

                  Firearms in the US will be around for generations even if the Second Amendment was repealed! And that will never happen. Even many Democrats oppose that.

                  Are the million plus gang bangers in the US going to turn in their firearms? LOL!!

                  Thousands of US towns and cities where per capita firearm ownership is very high are much safer than in the UK where per capita violent crime is often very high.

                  As I stated. Your ignorance on this issue is rather obvious!

                  • Bluesman1950

                    One swallow does not make a summer and one lucky year in one small state proves nothing.

                    Please provide details of any US city, or other large area that had a lower homicide rate than any comparable UK area.

                    You are right that, even if you take all firearms deaths and injuries out of the equation, the USA is far more violent and homicidal than the UK.

                    I think it is too late for the USA to get the guns out of your society. If I lived there I would probably want one too! How you cope with the high death rate and regular massacres is something with which you have to deal.

                    • Freedomcomesfirst

                      There are plenty of US cities that do not have a single incident of homicide in any given year. Gun or no gun.
                      Simply google “FBI UCR”. They have very extensive crime data that covers every type of violent crime. Broken down by states and even many US cities, both small and large.
                      This is all published, public data that any one can review.

                      In the US we have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
                      That is simply not going to change.

                      In the small city that I live in, population about 13,000, per capita gun ownership is very high. Easily over 50%.
                      Yet in the 20 years that I have lived here we have had just a single incident of homicide. And guess what? That was committed by a retired law enforcement officer who came into town and killed his estranged wife!

                      You simply cannot compare the US to the UK.

                      A constitutional republic. Different demographics. Different political ideologies, etc.etc.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “There are plenty of US cities that do not have a single incident of homicide in any given year. Gun or no gun.”

                        As there are very many towns in the UK , that you would call cities.

                        Try an example of somewhere substantial enough to make some valid comparison.

                      • Freedomcomesfirst
                      • Bluesman1950

                        In 2014, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 14,249. This was a 0.5 percent decrease from the 2013 estimate, a 3.2 percent decrease from the 2010 figure, and a 14.9 percent drop from the number in 2005.
                        https://ucr . fbi . gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-8/Table_8_Offenses_Known_to_Law_Enforcement_by_State_by_City_2014.xls/view

                        “The Home Office Homicide Index shows that there were 551 homicides (murder, manslaughter and infanticide) currently recorded in 2012/13 in England and Wales, 21 more than the 530 recorded in 2011/12 (an increase of 4%). This was driven by an increase among those aged under 16 – from 47 in 2011/12 to 67 in 2012/13. The latest increase should be seen in the context of a generally downward trend since 2002/03.”
                        http://webarchive . nationalarchives . gov . uk/20160105160709/http://www . ons . gov . uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/focus-on-violent-crime-and-sexual-offences–2012-13/rpt—chapter-2—homicide.html

                        25 times more murders in the USA with a population less than 6 times that of England and Wales.

                        Thanks for the link.

                        Now, got any figures for statistically significant US areas that are less homicidal than comparable UK areas?

                      • Freedomcomesfirst

                        Yes, but you failed to note my initial entire point in my OP.

                        Where per capita gun ownership in the US is the *highest* (2014 GSS poll), per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest* (2014 FBI UCR).
                        Thousands of three, four and five figure cities/towns from the FBI UCR clearly show that. Google FBI UCR by city size. All the data is there.

                        This is common knowledge in the US and absolutely no one has been able to debunk the data. Including you.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        How about these guys?

                        Objectives. We examined the relationship between levels of household firearm ownership, as measured directly and by a proxy—the percentage of suicides committed with a firearm—and age-adjusted firearm homicide rates at the state level.

                        The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010

                        American Journal of Public Health.

                        Methods. We conducted a negative binomial regression analysis of panel data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Web-Based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting Systems database on gun ownership and firearm homicide rates across all 50 states during 1981 to 2010. We determined fixed effects for year, accounted for clustering within states with generalized estimating equations, and controlled for potential state-level confounders.

                        Results. Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%.

                        “Conclusions. We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides”

                      • Freedomcomesfirst

                        More laughable deflection. So many of these “biased” studies have been outed by other scholars that I have lost count.

                        Clearly you are being evasive and a troll. You have yet to debunk what I have readily asked you too. Why? Because you can’t.

                        As I stated before:

                        Where per capita gun ownership in the US is the *highest* (2014 GSS poll), per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest* (2014 FBI UCR).”

                        That is an undeniable, statistical fact.

                        Yet, anyone in the US does not even need that data. It is common knowledge. Even liberals themselves will vouch for that.

                        As I stated in my OP, once again, you are rather ignorant on US gun issues and gun violence.

                        Stick with crime solving in the UK. You would never make it in the US.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Firearm Ownership and Violent Crime
                        in the U.S.
                        An Ecologic Study
                        Michael C. Monuteaux, ScD, Lois K. Lee, MD, David Hemenway, PhD, Rebekah Mannix, MD,
                        Eric W. Fleegler, MD

                        “Results: Higher levels of firearm ownership were associated with higher levels of firearm assault and firearm robbery. There was also a significant association between firearm ownership and firearm
                        homicide, as well as overall homicide.”

                        “Conclusions: The findings do not support the hypothesis that higher population firearm ownership rates reduce firearm-associated criminal perpetration. On the contrary, evidence shows that states
                        with higher levels of firearm ownership have an increased risk for violent crimes perpetrated with a firearm. Public health stakeholders should consider the outcomes associated with private firearm

                        http://crimeresearch . org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Firearm-Ownership-and-Violent-Crime.pdf

                        Yeah, these biased reports by academics who have only studied all the relevant data in detail eh! What do they know? Just refer to the FBI statistics without any actual comparison of the rates that you are trying to prove. You can hope that tothers will do your work for you, or better still, not bother not try to and then you can claim victory without having to prove anything!

                        Still, I have cited 2 academic papers which disprove your point, please feel free to post the studies by other scholars which ‘out’ them.

                      • Freedomcomesfirst


                        Are you suggesting the the FBI’s UCR is bogus? Year after year after year?
                        Are you suggesting that smaller ,more rural towns and cities have lower per capita firearm ownership when all the available data and polls have shown otherwise for decades?

                        A 15 second google found this.

                        ““Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states.”


                        You have yet to disclaim that in the US where per capita gun ownership is the *highest*, per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest*. An undeniable, statistical *fact*.


                        US per capita homicide rate (100,000) in 2014: 4.5
                        US per capita violent crime rate (100,000) in 2014: 374.9

                        US per capita homicide rate cities under 10,000: 2.4
                        US per capita violent crime rate cities under 10,000: 282

                        Compare the above to the next highest grouping or cities with populations up to 25,000. Hardly any statistical change.

                        Look at the much larger cities, virtually all managed and controlled by liberal Democrats for *decades* with much lower per capita firearm ownership.

                        The largest, 1,000,000 or more citizens. Just 10 of those in the US.

                        Per capita homicide rate: 7.4
                        Violent crime: 658.7

                        500,000 to 999,999.

                        Per capita homicide rate: A whopping 11.3
                        Violent crime: A whopping 874.4

                        Do the percentage differences yourself.

                        Here is the buffoonery of liberalism in the US. Just one city. Chicago.


                        US law enforcement opinions on gun control.


                        In the last 20 years per capita homicide in the US has decreased about 50% with little gun control.

                        After a quick review of UK crime data it would appear that gun bans have not had that much effect on per capita violent crime in the UK. Including homicide. Only the methodology has changed.

                        Are you *still denying* that in the US where per capita gun ownership is the *highest*, per capita violent crime, including homicide, is the *lowest*??????

                      • Gold Panner

                        Freedomcomesfirst don’t waste your time anymore with blueballs1950, you will never convince an arrogant and ignorant person, you can spew facts and figures all day long and that will never reach him, you gave him some great information, you handed it to him on a platter like others have before you and this idiot just don’t get it.
                        You’ll never convince the liberal minded, they are the ones that are herded up first when a government decides to start taking control, we all know where he will be when the SHTF, get pleasure knowing that, I know I do:) It will be the ultimate “I told ya so” 🙂

                      • Freedomcomesfirst


                        I have yet to figure out how the far left liberal minds work.

                        They seem to think that the whole of America is like crime infested liberal Chicago where in reality just the opposite is true.

                        It is amazing that the far left left fully engages in anarchy and gets away with it. They willfully and knowingly provide sanctuary to known and wanted illegal aliens, including convicted violent felons, with their sanctuary city policies, all 100% in violation of US Federal immigration law, yet seem perfectly OK with going after lawful US citizens. These folks are outright nuts.

                        If it ever comes push and shove they are going to lose badly.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        “I could care less about UK per capita homicide rates”
                        That’s kind of you. Many of your compatriots couldn’t care less.

                        Care to post an actual comparative list rather than expecting me to dig through all the FBI figures?

      • lhecker51

        Support that with evidence or go back to your basement.

    • Pingback: 32 shot in Chicago since Saturday Morning - Page 2()

    • jarhead1982

      Now if any of you anti gun eloi need a lesson on the UK, we have that govt. data as well proving anti gun idiots liars, your move liars….

      • Typical

        Do you need a safe space so you can sob to yourself peacefully.
        Away from the gun crime?

        • jarhead1982

          Aw poor widdle troll, too fkkn stupid to prove the UK govt data wrong, so sad……

        • Marc Purnell

          Don’t worry. The UK will soon be the next Iraq in 10 to 20 years.

    • jarhead1982

      On Australian drug overdose deaths which NIH researchers believe cause a 20% to 40% undercount in suicide see

      On top of that, Australia’s probative burdens on suicide rulings by coroners were made stricter about 15 years ago, which caused an immediate false and sustained lowering of suicide statistics rates simply due to policy changes.

      By the way not only are drug overdose suicides undercounted by 20% to 40% within drug overdose deaths, drug overdose deaths themselves are undercounted in western countries

      It is a slam dunk Australia’s suicide rate is substantially up, with the rise starting in about 1998, about the same time as the statistical undercount was created by the changes in probative burdens created by the Australian Health ministry – as noted in dozens of peer reviewed papers on the substantial undercount

    • jarhead1982

      Suicide Prevention and Method Restriction: Evaluating the Impact of Limiting Access to Lethal Means Among Young Australians


      Samara McPhedran & Jeanine Baker

      pages 135-146


      Given the finite resources allocated to suicide prevention, it is necessary to direct resources into interventions that are most likely to have an impact. This article tests for possible impacts on youth suicides of a cost-intensive Australian policy change (increased firearms restriction) that limited access to a means of suicide. Suicide rates by different age groups and methods were examined for structural breaks, using Zivot-Andrews and Quandt tests. No breakpoint was found in firearm suicide among Australian youth around the time of the 1996 legislative changes. Method restriction in the form of firearms legislation could not be tied to a corresponding impact on youth suicide.

    • jarhead1982

      Controlling firearms use in Australia: has the 1996 gun law reform produced the decrease in rates of suicide with this method?

      Dr. Helen Klieve, Michael Barnes, Prof. Diego De Leo MD, PhD, DSc, FRANZCP

      Klieve H1, Barnes M, De Leo D.

      Author information



      Observed reductions in firearm suicides in Australia have been linked to the 1997 national firearms agreement (NFA) introduced following the 1996 Port Arthur massacre. The NFA placed strong access restrictions on firearms.


      To assess the impact of legislative restrictions on the incidence of firearm suicide in Queensland and explore alternative or contributory factors behind observed declines.


      The Queensland suicide register (QSR) provided detailed information on all male suicides in Queensland (1990-2004), with additional data for Australia (1968-2004) accessed from other official sources. Trends in suicide rates pre/post NFA, and in method selection, were assessed using negative binomial regressions. Changing method selection patterns were examined using a cohort analysis of 5 years of age classes for Australian males.


      The observed reduction in firearms suicides was initiated prior to the 1997 introduction of the NFA in Queensland and Australia, with a clear decline observed in Australian figures from 1988. No significant difference was found in the rate pre/post the introduction of the NFA in Queensland; however, a significant difference was found for Australian data, the quality of which is noticeably less satisfactory. A marked age-difference in method choice was observed through a cohort analysis demonstrating both time and age influences. Within sequential birth cohorts, rates of firearms suicides decreased in younger males but increased in hanging suicides; this trend was far less marked in older males.


      The implemented restrictions may not be responsible for the observed reductions in firearms suicide. Data suggest that a change in social and cultural attitudes could have contributed to the shift in method preference.

    • jarhead1982

      All the while also refusing to acknowledge the effect of the baby boomers age subgroup as it affects crime rates. Geez, you Aussies had the Baby Boomers (born 1947-1964) also didn’t you, yeah you did!

      Criminologists the world over all agree the most active criminal ages are 15-24 and 25-34, then the criminal activity declines the older a subgroup gets. Amazing how that actually mirrors identically the trend in murders DECREASING, a trend that Australian government shows began occurring back in the mid 1980’s and continues to this day. Not to mention the ending of those gang turf battles.

      Hence yet again, no valid proof that gun control had anything relevant to causing that reduction in murders., a near 42% drop in actual murders using a firearm in the US versus a 39% drop in murders using a firearm in Australia. Uh dude, there is no statistical difference is there, geez shuckey darn! Yet again proof that less firearms doesn’t equal less violence, much less more guns equal more violence BS.

      You were saying?

    • jarhead1982

      Oh wait, you forgot to mention the increases in weapons being used to commit murders or VIOLENT CRIME which the Australian government acknowledges in their reports, and reflect that indeed as noted, more WEAPONS and more KNIVES are being used to commit a crime REPLACING the use of a firearm. But hey dont let govt. FACTS get in the way of your fantasy. Since you already have a functioning link to the Australian crime database, you can try and refute their data again!

      ” So without the Port Arthur killings using a firearm only 65 occurred in 1996, which was 40 in 2011, wow thats impressive, NOT.

      Geez, didnt the Port Author killings occur in 1996 making a spike in their killings, yeah it did. So is it a true reflection upon normal crime trends to add that anomaly/spike into the trends as a rational comparison to see what effect a law had on a result, no it isnt!

      See that is where the gun banners like to use % to look impressive and quote the % of firearms used in murders has dropped SO DRAMATICALLy.

      Lets see 311 murders, 65 using firearm in 1996 65/311 = 20.9%
Lets see 244 murders, 44 using firearm in 2011 40/244 = 16.39%

      Amazing how when one digs into the details, the ACTUAL TREND for reduction in killings using a firearm is rather puny!

      Yet the number of assaults with weapons keeps rising, hmmmm. Sure appears that the level of violence isnt being reduced, but just luck of the draw some of those arent killings, so sad.

      Oh and as noted in GOVT. and recorded history, there was indeed a NASTY gang war going on in the 1980’s to early 2000’s. Has that ended matey, oh yes, it has hasnt it.

      Oh whats this page #31,Homicide in Australia: 2007–08 National Homicide Monitoring Program annual report %7b89DEDC2D-3349-457C-9B3A-9AD9DAFA7256%7dmr13_004.pdf

      “…………. The majority of firearms used in homicides were unregistered and/or unlicensed” hmmm, such a consistent trend all over the world that the bad guys dont obey the law to begin with!

    • jarhead1982

      Totally unbeknownst to anti gun eloi, Australian academics have already examined the mass murder rate by firearm by comparing Australia to a control country: New Zealand. (Do they teach “control groups” at Harvard?)

      New Zealand is strikingly similar to Australia. Both are isolated island nations, demographically and socioeconomically similar. Their mass murder rate before Australia’s gun ban was nearly identical: From 1980 to 1996, Australia’s mass murder rate was 0.0042 incidents per 100,000 people and New Zealand’s was 0.0050 incidents per 100,000 people.

      The principal difference is that, post-1997, New Zealand remained armed to the teeth — including with guns that were suddenly banned in Australia.

      While it’s true that Australia has had no more mass shootings since its gun ban, neither has New Zealand, despite continuing to be massively armed. . . .

    • jarhead1982

      The Australian Institute of Criminology’s National Homicide Monitoring Program (NHMP) has monitored homicides in Australia since 1989. NHMP data indicate that homicide, followed by the suicide of the offender either immediately after or within a short period of killing one or more victims, is a relatively infrequent event. Out of the total number of homicide incidents recorded by the NHMP (n=5,486), six percent (n=343) are classified as murder-suicides and 80 percent of these occurred in the context of intimate and/or family relationships. The most common type of murder-suicide in 2006–07 was that involving a parent killing their children (38% of murder-suicides) followed by intimate partner homicide (31% of murder-suicides). Eighty-two percent of murder-suicides in 2006–07 involved one offender and victim only. The remaining 18 percent involved one offender and multiple victims. The figure below shows that there is no statistically significant trend in multiple-victim murder-suicides, with numbers fluctuating between a low of zero during 2001 and a high of seven during 2003.

    • jarhead1982

      A Transcript of the Police Interview With Martin Bryant” http : // loveforlife . com . au / content / 07 / 10 / 30 / transcript-police-interview-martin-bryant

      Funny, how even before 1996, you needed a LICENSE to purchase a firearm, yet the Port Arthur killer didnt have one, yet that is somehow the LAW ABIDING GUN OWNERS FAULT AGAIN EH?

    • jarhead1982

      Now what is hilarious is that when one reviews the Australian gun laws from the early 1970’s on, we see their gun laws as RESTRICTIVE TO BEGIN WITH!

      How then did port author and all those attacks occur with strict gun control to begin with eh….

    • jarhead1982

      Isnt it amazing how many mass klillings the australians had during strict gun control from the 1970’s into the 1990’s and then still had mass shootings and attacks after 1996 eh….

      • Cullin-La-Ringo massacre – Horatio Wills and his traveling party were killed by Aborigines at Cullin-La-Ringo Station in Queensland in 1860; police, native police and civilians killed 60 to 70 Aborigines in response.

      • George David Silva murdered six members of the Ching family at Alligator Creek near Mackay, Queensland in 1911.

      • Coniston massacre – Over 50 Aboriginal people were killed in the last Aboriginal massacre in 1928. The motive was revenge for the killing of dingo hunter Frederick Brooks.

      • Hope Forest massacre – Clifford Cecil Bartholomew shot dead ten members of his family in Hope Forest near Adelaide, September 1971.[2]

      • Whiskey Au Go Go fire – Fire lit in club killed 15

      • 22 September 1976 – William Robert Wilson – Killed two people and wounded four on Boundary Street, Spring Hill,Brisbane. Wilson took a .22 calibre rifle and 500 rounds of ammunition to Boundary Street around 12.30 pm and began shooting randomly. He shot and killed Monika Schleus, aged 17, as she crossed Boundary Street. Wilson shot and wounded Donald William Hepburn Galloway, who was also crossing the street. Proceeding to a milk bar, Wilson shot and killed Marianne Kalatzis, aged 18, and wounded Mavis Ethel Sanders and Virginia Hollidge. In the neighbouring shop he shot and wounded Quinto Alberti. Wilson was captured by police around 4:15 pm at a suburban house where Wilson was holding a man and four young women hostage. Wilson served three years in a mental hospital. On being found fit for trial, he was sentenced in 1980 to two life sentences for the murders and 10 years each, concurrently, for the four attempted murders. He pleaded guilty to all charges.[3]

      • Russell Street Bombing – 23 wounded when a car bomb ignites outside a Police Building. One of the wounded, a female police officer, died later of injuries from the explosion.

      • Douglas Crabbe – Truck driver deliberately crashed his truck into a hotel, killing five and badly wounding 16.

      • Sydney Hilton bombing – Two garbage men were killed and 12 passers-by were injured by a bomb planted in a garbage bin outside the Sydney Hilton Hotel in 1978. A police officer who was wounded died later.

      • Milperra massacre – Two biker gangs, the Comanchero and the Bandidos, engaged in a shoot-out in a hotel car park, killing 7 people in 1984, including a bystander. Only one defendant was acquitted on the murder charges. Oh wait, these were criminals, with guns, who weren’t licensed eh, hmmmmm!

      • Joseph Schwab – 1987, Schwab shot dead 5 people in and around the Kimberley region in Western Australia before being shot dead by police.[4]

      • Hoddle Street massacre – Armed with two rifles and a shotgun, Julian Knight shot 7 people dead and wounded another 19 in 1987 before surrendering to authorities.

      • Queen Street massacre – Armed with a sawn-off rifle, Frank Vitkovic roamed the Australia Post building killing 8 and wounding 5, also in 1987. When the weapon was finally wrestled from him, he committed suicide by jumping out of a nearby window.

      • Surry Hills massacre – Paul Anthony Evers killed 5 people with a 12-gauge shotgun at a public housing precinct in Surry Hills in 1990 before surrendering to police.[5]

      • Strathfield massacre – In 1991 Wade Frankum killed 7 people and wounded 6 others with a large knife and an SKSbefore turning the gun on himself when he realised he could not escape.

      • Central Coast Massacre – Malcolm Baker killed 6 people and injured another with a shotgun in 1992 before being arrested by police.

      • Port Arthur massacre – In 1996, armed with two semi-automatic rifles, Martin Bryant killed 35 people around Port Arthur and wounded 21 before being caught by police the next day following an overnight siege.

      • Childers Palace Fire – In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.

      • Monash University shooting – In October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang, a student, shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five.

      • June 18, 2007, in which a lone gunman killed a man who had come to the aid of an assault victim and seriously wounded two others in Melbourne’s central business district during morning rush hour

      • Churchill Fire – 10 confirmed deaths due to a deliberately lit fire. The fire was lit on 7th of February 2009.

      • Quakers Hill Nursing Home Fire – 10 confirmed and as many as 21 people may have died as a result of a deliberately lit fire in a Quakers Hill nursing home. The fire was lit early on 18th of November 2011.

      • Salamander Bay, Australia April 3, 2003 The shooter threw petrol bombs before opening fire, seriously wounding 2 students

      2011 Hectorville siege

      A mass shooting that took place on Friday, April 29, 2011, in Hectorville, South Australia began after a 39-year-old male, Donato Anthony Corbo, went on a shooting rampage, killing three people and wounding a child and two police officers with a shotgun stolen from a family member, before being arrested by Special Operations police after an eight-hour seige.[27]

      • Adelaide, Australia A May 7, 2012 Year eight student took a revolver on school grounds, firing shots, nobody was injured.

      2014 – Hunt family murders: 5 dead

      2014 – Logan shooting: 3 dead

      • • Sydney Australia Dec 15 2014, local thuggsta terrorsit wannabe kills 2 injures others….

      ht The gunman, Man Monis, obtained an illegal sawn off Remington 870 and did not hold a firearms license. Monis also had an extensive criminal history and was on parole at the time for accessory to murdertp://

      10/2/2015 Parramatta Australia

      • Let’sBeFriends

        The definition of a mass shooting is if the gunman kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location.

        Fires aren’t mass shootings either, ya clown.

        • jarhead1982

          Oh darn so all those claims by the everytown whoores and VPC whoores that aren’t 4 killed not including the shooter can’t be counted in their 212 mass shootings claim/lie where they included all those criminals and their criminal acts in non gun free zones this year eh, good to know

          • Let’sBeFriends

            No problem sweetie!

      • Gremlin Le

        This is so idiotic. If we typed up the entire history of gun violence with 3 or more murders during a single terrorist or murder act in the USA, it would probably take an entire population to write it up.

    • jarhead1982

      Whoops, so much for the gun control failure in australia

      Amazing how full autos, home made, are showing up in criminals hands these days!

      Hells Angels, Outlaws went to war in the 1990’s in Australia also,8599,1888288,00.html

      Bikie gang killings 2009

      Bike gang wars

      More bikie gang violence

      Imagine that, fighting over turf to sell drugs!

      Bikie gangs 2007, violence escalating again, imagine that, thought you mateys took all the law abiding subjects guns, oh wait, you didn’t take the criminals, what morons!

    • jarhead1982

      By the way, what is a country, with gun bans suicide rate vs the US? Australia has 1/100th of our firearms, so they should have 1/100th of our suicide rate, uh dude, their 2010 suicide rate is 11.14 per 100k people.

      What about murders, lets compare that as well.

      1996 Australia 1.7 murders per 100k people 2013 1.08 murders per 100k people a -36.5% reduction

      1996 US 7.4 murders per 100k people 2013 4.5 murders per 100k people a -39.1% reduction.

      How is it again, that a country with a 42% increase in civilian firearm ownership and 100 times more firearms in law abiding civilian hands than Australia, have a greater reduction in murders than they did?

      Now if one breaks it down into weapons used if you take and look at the normal trend, one see’s Australia reduction in murder by illegal use of firearms only reduced -4.61% from 1996 to 2013, the US from 1996 to 2013 was reduced -26.7%.

      That’s a 5.79 times greater reduction than in Australia…..oh wait, maybe that reduction difference is so great cause in Australia all they did was confiscate the guns from the law abiding and not the FREAKING CRIMINALS MORE-ONS!

      • Let’sBeFriends

        “How is it again, that a country with a 42% increase in civilian firearm ownership and 100 times more firearms in law abiding civilian hands than Australia, have a greater reduction in murders than they did?”

        LMAO, because America had a higher rate of murders in the first place! Australia was already around 1.8-2.0 in the early 90’s so of course comparitively it didn’t have as great of a reduction

        since in the early 90s the USA was sitting around 9.5 -9.8

        Not to mention the crack epidemic drying up, more police officers put on the beat in the early 90’s and the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 all helping to contribute to the sharp reduction you’re conveniently citing

        • jarhead1982

          So again we have proven that more guns in law abiding gun owners hands doesn’t equal more violence, thanks for playing…

          Then the reduction in violence had started long before 1994 sweety and that rate didn’t change because of the idiotic semi auto rifle racist bigoted ban because the gun was black

          But if you had a brain and thought for yourself you would see the direct correlation in the reduction in violence to the aging of the baby boomers, born 1947-1964

          You know the largest age group to that date

          See world leading criminologists like Wolfgang, Piersall, Chaiken and Ambrohse long ago identified criminals most active ages 15-34 yrs old and since near 125 million baby boomers were born 1947-1964, it’s a given more people more crime sweety

          But hey you have what evidence other than inferred causality, Nyet, nothing of course, anti gun perverts never have anything

          Its rather sad people supposedly with brains ignore the obvious

          • Let’sBeFriends

            Except part of the act that Clinton signed if you had bothered to read actual facts “sweetie”, besides increased police force, was a 10 year ban on assault rifle manufacture and distribution, 5 days wait on handgun ownership and minors prohibited from owning a handgun full stop. The fact there was more money funding police, FBI, social services, technology, all helped contribute, NOT the fact that baby boomers got frickin’ old, lmao.

            Blaming everything on the baby boomers is a ridiculous and convenient scapegoat, especially in fact of the other blatant fact of why crime was so high in the 80’s to 90’s besides the crack epidemic, which would be a floundering economy and high unemployment rates after the end of the Gulf War. But yeah, those olds were just naturally predisposed to violence I guess and there’s never been people aged 15-34 since? Hahahaha.

            • jarhead1982

              Proven lie, but hey keep it up we need the chuckles

              • Let’sBeFriends

                Yeah you really got me there, binhead

                • jarhead1982

                  Since everything anti gun phaggits claim is a lie to begin with by US govt data not one single one of the anti gun bingeads have ever disproven the problem is yours liar

                  • Let’sBeFriends

                    Mm yes OK. Please now tell me your thoughts on chemtrails and the illuminati

                    • jarhead1982

                      Still got nothing eh whistling between the ears

                      • Let’sBeFriends

                        At least there’s no tinfoil hat blocking the airflow on my dome, pumpkin. Just continue avoiding pesky things like facts and citations, I mean you got this far with baseless heresay and skewed facts to prop your strawmen up while throwing out doozies like “phaggits”. Keep reaching for that rainbow!

                      • jarhead1982

                        You have no proper govt facts and govt citations to back your claims liar, dismissed child

                      • Let’sBeFriends

                        Sure, I just dropped a bunch of FBI and AIC data and research papers, no big deal.
                        But I’m sure getting your pals to upvote your jibbering will help you sleep at night 😉
                        Later pops

            • Dion Kerfont

              It wasn’t one specific drug… it’s the “war on drugs” that started with Nixon.

    • jarhead1982

      Oh wait, what is this, we see that Australia is INDEED under reporting their homicides,….

      That is if one goes and reviews the Australian Bureau of Statistics report for each year on UNDERLYING CAUSES OF DEATH, versus the # of murders reported in their CRIME DATA REPORTS:


      Murders: 1,709

      Homicides: 5,278

      Amazing how the police in Australia are under reporting their murders by near 80%……..and it wouldn’t just be murders they are under reporting now would it, LOL……..

      • Steve Bright

        I realise you are a professional liar for the NRA / Gun lobby (saying “we” is a giveaway, isn’t it?), however claiming Australian police fabricate false figures to underreport murders by 80% is pretty low even by your standards.
        Here in Australia most people don’t own guns. The ones that do are required by law to keep them in a safe. We don’t have military style semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines. We don’t have deranged individuals shooting children in schools, night clubs, or their workmates in the office. We don’t have children accidentally shooting people with guns. We don’t carry guns around with us, our wives don’t carry guns, and we don’t shoot one another. Gun deaths in Australia were averaging over 500 / year before the gun buyback. They’re now running at low 200 / year. Still, I suspect you’ll find 300 deaths a year a source of amusement somehow, won’t you?
        Americans who move here tell us that a huge burden of fear, which they hadn’t even been consciously aware of in the US, has been lifted from them with the absence of guns.
        Most shootings are between criminal gangs. When a farmer in a dispute with government officials shot and killed one, the shooting and the trial have been a major news story for a year.
        When we read about the latest mass shooting in the US we shake our heads in sorrow and pity, and with sadness because we realise that the US is so bound up in the gun culture, that there is no way to change it in the foreseeable future.
        If I were you, I’d lay awake at night worrying that the position on gun control in the US is now so far beyond the possibility of any rational control measure that your employers will realise they don’t need a flim flam merchant like you to lie for them, and you’ll have to find an honest job. The “honest” part may give you some trouble.

        • jarhead1982

          That’s a lot of illicit narcotic fueled unsubstantiated Gish galloping lies that prove nothing

          Do get a brain transplant and seek mental health treatment for your narcissistic personality disorder you believing your God

          • Steve Bright

            What an intelligent response. Such command of the English language. I’ve never heard of “Gish galloping” before, but having looked it up, you seem to have complete mastery of the technique.
            You’re showing all the class I expected based on your profile picture.
            Happy sleepless nights.

            p.s. If you’re going to post links to your claims, you might expect someone to check them and find out the “facts” you claim are fictitious.

            • jarhead1982

              Gish galloping away says the anti gun perve

              • Steve Bright

                “Anti gun perve”. Is that your best shot? Help! I’m being stoned to death with popcorn.
                At least I’m not a victim of the Dunning Kruger effect.

                • jarhead1982

                  Truth hurts eh pedo

          • Steve Bright

            And coincidentally with your reply I’ve received some pathetic email phishing attempts. Nothing to do with you of course.
            I mean, that would be so pathetic and stupid, wouldn’t it?

            • jarhead1982

              Yes we agree all anti gun phaggits are pathetic and stupid

        • JohnL1313

          I see where your sexual assault rate skyrocketed after you disarmed women leaving them helpless to defend themselves against their attackers. Nice work! Women are getting raped a lot but at least there aren’t any guns around. Ted Bundy gives you a two thumbs up!

          • Steve Bright

            That’s a truly pathetic piece of NRA propaganda. Australian women have NEVER carried guns to protect themselves against sexual assaults. How can I be certain? Handguns were not allowed to be carried in Australia, so the women would have had to tote around rifles, which tend to be rather obvious.
            Your Ted Bundy reference is really repugnant. Did any women save themselves from Bundy by having a gun? No. So it was just a crude and particularly ugly throwaway insult wasn’t it?
            Australia has a high reported rate of sexual assaults because the definition is very wide, including inappropriate uninvited touching. It skyrocketed? Only one state in Australia (Victoria) has had a modest increase in reported sexual assaults, but this is attributed to more reporting, not more assaults. In all other states it has been stable.
            I really don’t know why I bother with you anyway. You’re just another lying NRA troll.

            • JohnL1313

              So…Australia has NEVER allowed women to carry a gun to protect themselves? How sad for the women in your country to be forbidden by their own government from being able to protect themselves. Also, carrying a gun in an obvious fashion is not a bad thing as the prospective rapist, murderer, etc., will simply pass and look for an easier target.

              No, none of Ted Bundy’s victim’s were able to save themselves. None of them had a gun. I bet they wish they did.

              Not sure why I’m a “lying NRA troll” for stating the obvious facts which are that guns are used in a self-defense in the USA hundreds of thousands of times each year preventing a robbery, rape, assault, murder, etc., according to a study cited by the US Supreme Court in it’s 2008 D.C. v Heller case.

              Oh, and about the NRA. It was founded by former Union soldiers from the north after the civil war to teach southern abolitionists and former slaves how to use firearms to protect themselves against groups like the KKK during Reconstruction. The right to bear arms of some type to protect oneself and to curb tyranny dates back to the beginning of time. If you don’t want to bear that right, fine. But don’t tell me I can’t.

              • Steve Bright

                Here we are in Australia oppressed by a tyrannical government, while armed burglars, robbers and rapists roam our streets terrorising the unarmed citizens. Really? One of us is delusional, and I’m pretty sure I’m not kept awake at night by gunshots, screaming victims, or the fear of the secret police breaking down my door.
                If you want to, believe the cherry picked, or invented figures Mr “Jarhead” uses for Australia.
                And if you believe carrying a gun makes you safer, look up
                Branas CC, Richmond TS, Culhane DP, Ten Have TR, Wiebe DJ. Investigating the link between gun possession and gun assault. Am J Public Health. 2009;99(11):2034-2040
                on Pub Med.
                Here are the results: After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05).
                But soon Jarhead will prove this wrong with his usual eloquence. Something like "Everything anti gun perve pedo phaggits claim is a Gish galloping lie."
                And of course you should believe him. He's such a class act, isn't he?

                • JohnL1313

                  Thank you for referring me to a study that is widely known to be flawed. It starts with a false paradigm by studying people who are assaulted and then shot, a compound outcome/event where the secondary action is not guaranteed based upon the first. Among other things it doesn’t account for people who were assaulted and not shot, it doesn’t account for demographics (a huge determinant), time of day.

                  The direct facts from the CDC and the FBI are that gun ownership in the USA has almost doubled since 1993 and the homicide rate has dropped in half. Ironically, the cities in the USA with the highest homicide rates are also those with the strictest gun laws such as Chicago, Washington D.C., Detroit, Baltimore. According to the study by Dr. Kleck, criminologist at Florida State and cited by the US Supreme Court in the 2008 D.C. v Heller case, guns are used hundreds of thousands of times each year in a self defense capacity.

                  No, the last time I checked Australia certainly doesn’t have a tyrannical government, nor do you have a “crime wave” of violence. Neither do we. I do think it’s ridiculous to not allow a woman (or a man) to carry a gun to defend themselves because you are basically telling criminals that everyone is unarmed.

                  I will carry a gun and I will defend myself and my family if ever necessary because in that one in a million instance my life or the life of my family will be on the line and I want the most effective tool.

        • jarhead1982

          We posted all the Australian govt data above proving your bs claims lies, go argue with them moron

    • jarhead1982

      Lets compare Australia’s violent crime rate vs. the US

      Year / Australia / US both per 100k people

      1996 629.2 / 636.6

      1997 788.8 / 610.8

      1998 869.7 / 566.4

      1999 908.2 / 523.0

      2000 899.7 / 506.5

      2001 925.2 / 504.5

      2002 1008.4 / 494.4

      2003 1014.8 / 476.0

      2004 984.4 / 463.2

      2005 965.9 / 469.0

      2006 1013.9 / 473.6

      2007 1024.4 / 466.9

      2008 992.3 / 458.6

      2009 938.8 / 431.9

      2010 918.2 / 404.5

      2011 925.1 / 386.3

      2012 924.8 / 386.9

      So thought you inferred gun free = less violent eh morons, why didn’t it?

      Oh and as we do have access to their data, we already sorted out the crimes there, that aren’t violent here so it is a proper apples to apples comparison, just like we did with England and Canada!

      ACT Australian Capital Territory

      NSW New South Wales

      NT Northern Territory

      SA South Australia

      WA Western Australia




      They quit counting the data for the three territories in 2010, notice the resulting downturn in violent crime rate, typical lefties cooking the books and lying!

      The math is simple:

      (Violent crimes / population) x 100,000 = VIOLENT CRIME RATE

      Oh one more thing, Australia only reports violent crimes solved just like mother England does…..

      • Bluesman1950

        Just came across this piece of nonsense!

        “Oh one more thing, Australia only reports violent crimes solved just like mother England does…..”

        Complete and utter rubbish and another piece of total fabrication from the idiot jarhead! All crimes that come to the notice of the police in the UK are reported. Some are solved, some aren’t. I would expect that Australia follows a similar system.

        • jarhead1982

          Man better clamor for knife control after another leftist anti gunphaggit like you killed 18 and injured 45 disarmed victims last night in Japan

          You should be so proud of all that blood on your hands yet again liar

          • Bluesman1950

            The UK does have laws against carrying bladed or pointed articles and other offensive weapons in public. Do you think that they should arm the mentally disabled in Japan just because you’re allowed a gun in the USA?

            But how exactly does a maniac attacking disabled people in Japan explain or justify your lies alleging that the UK and Australia report only solved crimes?

            • jarhead1982

              Demonstrates how pathetic anti gunphaggitry is rather nicely CAUSE YOU MORONS ONLY CONTROL THE LAW ABIDING….welcome to reality jethro

    • jarhead1982



      The 1996-1997 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict

      gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania, in 1996, where 35 people were killed.

      Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we reanalyze the same data on firearm deaths used in

      previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates. (JEL C22, K19)


      This paper takes a closer look at the effects of the NFA on gun deaths. Using a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest that it had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides. In addition, there also does not appear to be any substitution effects—that reduced access to firearms may have led those bent on committing homicide or suicide to use alternative methods.

      Since the 1996 Port Arthur massacre, two other shooting incidents have attracted much media attention in Australia. An incident on October 21, 2002 at Monash University, in which a gunman killed two people and wounded five, prompted the National Handgun Buyback Act of 2003.

      Under this scheme that ran from July to December 2003, 70,000 handguns were removed from the community at a cost of approximately A$69 million.

      Another shooting on June 18, 2007, in which a lone gunman killed a man who had come to the aid of an assault victim and seriously wounded two others in Melbourne’s central business district during morning rush hour, renewed calls for tougher gun controls.

      Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears, the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.

    • jarhead1982

      Mass shootings in Australia and New Zealand: A descriptive study of incidence, by Samara McPhedran and Jeanine Baker, published in the Justice Policy Journal, Vol. 8, No. 1, Spring 2011

      Here is the abstract from the paper:


      The development of legislation aimed at reducing the incidence of firearm-related death is an ongoing interest within the spheres of criminology, public policy, and criminal justice. Although a body of research has examined the impacts of significant epochs of regulatory reform upon firearm-related suicides and homicides in countries like Australia, where strict nationwide firearms regulations were introduced in 1996, relatively little research has considered the occurrence of a specific type of homicide: mass shooting events. The current paper examines the incidence of mass shootings in Australia and New Zealand (a country that is socioeconomically similar to Australia, but with a different approach to firearms regulation) over a 30 year period. It does not find support for the hypothesis that Australia’s prohibition of certain types of firearms has prevented mass shootings, with New Zealand not experiencing a mass shooting since 1997 despite the availability in that country of firearms banned in Australia. These findings are discussed in the context of social and economic trends.

    • jarhead1982

      In 1989, the state of New South Wales (NSW) passed its Firearms Act of 1989, so NSW had firearm registration, owner licensing and virtual gun bans starting in 1990.

      The next year the state of Queensland (rather strict) passed its Firearms Act of 1990, so owner licensing began there the next year (’91).

      Handguns and fully automatic firearms had been severely restricted almost throughout Australia for several years already.

Recommendations for “reform” were drawn up as a result of the 1991 meeting.

      According to a ’99 AIC document, sale of “military style” rifles was banned, starting about ’92 in all states.

At this time gun laws or their enforcement were apparently most restrictive in NSW and Western Australia.

      Tasmania had passed their Guns Act 1991, and its restrictions apparently began January 1, 1993.These restrictions included requirements that a person have a license for possession of a firearm, and that handguns be registered.

      So we see at best the laws were classified as RESTRICTIVE at minimum compared to US laws PRIOR TO 1996, hmmmmm….

      http : //www . gunsandcrime . org/aussiegc . html$FILE/90-24a052bookmarked.pdf

    • jarhead1982
    • jarhead1982

      Now lets talk about the utter failure of gun control of only the law abiding in Australia

      Senate inquiry where Australian Federal police assistant commissioner Julian Slater refute leftists claims….especially the theft from gun owners BS…..Nov 1 2014….

      Man, thought gun owners were so irresponsible, yet only 6 guns stolen out of 48,000 in Victoria…..

      Hilariously they admit 68% of incidents that the guns were locked up

      • Steve Bright

        The laws in Australia require guns to be kept in a locked safe when not in use.
        Hilarious that “experts” like you and your pals couldn’t find this out.

        • jarhead1982

          Which has been proven multiple times to have zero effect on reducing theft or lowering crime

          Hilarious how liars like you anti gun Eloi are too fkkn stupid to prove otherwise

          • Steve Bright

            Liar? What lie? I have a friend who has a profitable business selling the gun safes.
            And it’s been proven multiple times having guns locked in secure safes has zero effect on reducing theft? You just crack me up.
            Don’t bother with more pointless, crude, personal abuse. It’s really immature and frankly boring. You’re not worth my time.

            • jarhead1982

              Sorry liar you aren’t God and since all anti gun phaggits are proven liars you’re unsubstantiated word isn’t proof, try again rookie

        • JohnL1313

          How do you enforce this? Are the police allowed to enter your home at any given point to check on you? Also, if your gun is locked away in a safe, do you call “time out” during the burglary/home invasion while you open the safe?

          • Steve Bright

            If you want a gun licence you have to prove you have a safe. Most Australians follow the law and since they have spent a lot on the gun safe, use it. Police in Australia can only enter a home with a warrant, for which they’d need some evidence of illegal behaviour.
            If we have a burglary we call the police. Burglars in Australia rarely carry guns, and tend to run away when discovered. The only burglary I’ve experienced in my 68 years was when some adolescents stole a used surfboard from my garage while we were out. Oh, the horror!
            Home invasions, particularly with firearms, are rare, with the exception of those between criminals & drug dealers, and I figure they deserve what they get.
            Most Australians don’t own guns, I’ve never met anyone who carries one (except police or security guards).
            The big law enforcement issue at the moment is the occasional “one punch” attack where some drunk punches another and injures or kills him. We have to import almost all of our news on gun violence from the US. You seem to have plenty to go around. There were at least 2 items on the 6 o’clock news last night.

            • JohnL1313

              In America, 99% of gun owners follow the laws as well. As we both know – you mentioned it in your post regarding criminals and drug dealers – criminals don’t follow the laws regardless of the country, here in the USA or in Australia. That’s why I own and carry a gun. In fact, since the mid-90’s, gun ownership has almost doubled in the USA and all homicides have declined by half in that time. One of the largest drops in homicide in the entire world over that span.

              My point about the safe is that there is no way to enforce the use of the safe. Sure, I have to buy it to get the license, but once I’m home, there is no way to enforce the use of the safe. During the gun confiscation, how were you able to get the murderers and rapists to turn in their guns?

    • jarhead1982

      In the US Per FBI UCR & CDC in 1991 24,700 murders, consistent % where firearms used is 67.8% =16,747 murders by illegal use of firearm, 15,383 suicides by firearms, 657 justifiable homicides, 1,463 accidental firearms deaths =34,250 deaths where firearms were used

      2013 14,196 murders 69% used a firearm = 9,795, 681 justifiable homicides, 505 accidental deaths, 21,175 suicides = 32,156 deaths where a firearm was used.

      Since 1991 to 2013, that is a reduction in…..

      Totals / Rate

      Violent Crime -39.2% / -51.47%

Murder w gun -41.52% / -54.09%

Rape -25.27% / -38.54% 

      Robbery -49.84% / -58.31%

      Assault -33.84% /-47.1%

      Accidental deaths -45.23% / -56.31%

      Amazing how those are the highest total reductions of ANY country in the world during that time!

      So explain again how since 1991 there has been a 42% increase in firearms in civilian hands there hasn’t been a 42% increase in violence or suicide?

      • Kevin Marshall Sutton

        Dude your research is like a champ man

        • Steve Bright

          Making up lies is “research”, is it?

          • JohnL1313

            He cited all of his statistics. That’s not “making” it up.

            • Steve Bright

              Really? The “statistics” are made up or taken so completely out of context as to be ridiculous.,
              Boy, there’s really a conga line of mendacious trolls on this site.

              • JohnL1313

                So the information from the CDC (Centers for Disease Control, a federal agency) and the FBI were made up?

                You’ll need to prove it with your own cited stats.

              • jarhead1982

                Aw the anti gun phaggot is upset by govt data proving it a liar

          • Kevin Marshall Sutton

            Lin family murders 2009
            Logan shooting 2014
            Sydney Siege 2014
            Monash University Shooting 2002
            Hectorville siege 2011
            Banksia Grove shooting 2016
            Ingleburn, Sydney 2016

            So when people argues that Australia doesn have mass shooting since 1996. It’s a false claim

            • Steve Bright

              The definition of mass shootings is either 10 or more shot, or 4 or more killed.
              Only 5 incidents on your list involved a gun, none had 10 or more shot.
              If you look at the list on Wikipedia for Australia for “spree” or “rampage” shootings, in the 10 years from 1987-1996 there were 12, each with more than 5 deaths. In the 20 years since there has only one (a murder suicide in a single family) with more than 4 deaths.

              • Kevin Marshall Sutton

                Mass shooting is a mass shooting.

                • Steve Bright

                  Are you really that obtuse? That wasn’t a spree or rampage shooting of strangers (like we used to have, but don’t any more). I put in that for honesty. Unlike your heroes from the NRA who use out of date figures. or just make things up. For example, a study they quote, saying there was no “proof” gun laws had reduced gun deaths, used dubious methodology, was done in 2004. It’s now 2016, or hadn’t you noticed?
                  I have a major in mathematical statistics, so I know just how much crap the pro gun avatars are posting.
                  Try this one on for size:
                  NONE IN 20 YEARS SINCE.

                  • Kevin Marshall Sutton

                    LOL no it not. Mass shooting like one at college use multi handguns Monash University shooting in 2003 and one at the restaurant at 2016. And the others are biker gangs shooting each other.
                    So your information is false . Gun death in Australia is flat in since 2006. I’m not a NRA dude. I know the truth gun deaths in Australia has been reduce since before port author massacre. By the way I’m anarchist against government and the F**K media.
                    You even lose your right of self defense. Which it a human thing to protect your family. Not the F**k government and called the authority to show up until you dead.

    • Aquaria

      Complete bullshit.

      The Australian homicide rate has gone DOWN since 1996:

      The UK homicide rate has gone DOWN since 2000:

      Despite some year-to-year fluctuations, Ireland’s homicide rate has overall gone DOWN since 2007:

      “By the end of last year [2012], homicides had fallen by 52 per cent from a peak of 138 cases in 2007.”

      While 2014 saw a rise in the Irish murder rate to 84 (still 39% less than 2007’s 138), in 2015, there were 54 murders in Ireland, a drop from 2012 of 19%:
      So much for your moron argument.

      • Barry

        “The Australian homicide rate has gone DOWN since 1996”

        Guess what? The homicide rate in the US has gone down since 1996 as well by an even larger amount than in Australia.

      • jarhead1982

        Read above and get schooled loser

    • Ttoe

      Interesting argument, but in two of your three recent gun-ban examples, you refute yourself. I give you credit for your honesty. Not typical of a liberal today, but then you’re not liberal either. I can say that safely because you actually argue that gun-control is pointless.

      You just argued that there isn’t a sustained increase in violence with gun-bans, but then you stated the numbers proving that 2 out of the 3 you mentioned did indeed have a sustained increase in murders.

      The jump immediately proceeding the gun-ban did not remain at the peak, which is to be expected as guns are rounded up and removed and those who want to commit murder or other violent crime have to rethink how to go about doing it.

      However, the sustained increase in violence remained when the increase did not go back down to pre-ban levels.

      So, essentially, the NRA is correct. Gun-bans do in fact cause a sustained increase in at least the murder-rate. It’s just that that sustained increase isn’t typically remotely close to the peak of murders that happen immediately after a gun-ban.

      Also, the world did indeed change for all of those people who suffer and die needlessly in pointless gun-bans that don’t actually solve anything . . . as you illustrated.

      At least you recognize that Democrats aren’t just stupid. You recognize that they have a reason for wanting to do gun bans in spite of the fact that they know it doesn’t actually help anything.

      Nice piece, all in all. I like how you’re making the effort to be fair and unbiased towards either side. But to any rational person, you clearly made a very rational argument against gun-control.

    • suemenow

      Your headlines said fact BOTH side don’t want to admit…But even if your FACTS are left out the other side…So since your title is not true, what else in the rest of the article isn’t?

      • Alcohol Prohibition was a spectacular success. Drug Prohibition is working just as as well. Gun Prohibition will work just as well. What side are you missing?

        BTW “gun free zones” are also a huge success. No one ever gets killed by guns in places where the signs are posted.

      • Andrew Johnson

        Uh yeah it did it definitely said that before and after gun bans very little change. So the argument that states guns are responsible for more murder is wrong and the side that says guns in legal citizens hands prevents it is also wrong.

    • Dan B

      If you take the US homicide rate during the same time frame you will see the US homicide rate drop 50%. There are a slew of other factors involved outside of gun legislation.

      • There are a slew of other factors involved outside of wearing a seat belt. But seat belts prevent, not stop, vehicle deaths. If vehicles rammed into schools killing 49 children at a time, roads would be banned near schools. No one would confiscate all roads, that’s stupid. Only people profiting from roads would make that argument.
        Get it?

        • BL4CKSH33P

          Lol what? What kind of analogy was that? Those two situations aren’t remotely similar.

        • Well if you look at the gun murder stats you will find that a certain segment of the population is doing most of the murdering. And they are doing it to each other. BLaM.

      • Ttoe

        During that time, we were increasing the numbers of guns in our possession, and Australia’s murder rate remained the same after the immediate peak after the gun ban. So, whatever was going on in the world, we benefited from a drop in the murder rate while Australia kept their rate like nothing happened. In other words, they probably missed out on the drop because of a inadvertently poorly-timed gun-ban.

      • JesusMiguel Burgos

        Did you read the article?

      • You were too dismissive of Australia. “but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.”

      • Pat

        That article has incorrect facts. If you look at the Australian government crime statistics gun violence increased by 30% following the ban. Violent crimes increased by 55%. Gun violence has since decreased but the majority of the decrease is gun suicides, which dropped by 70%. Overall suicide rates dropped by 10%. I don’t know where that article received their info from, but this is all available on the Australian government website.

    • How do I stop the talking ad so I can read the article? I will not share news that has distracting ads.

    • Aaron Hatch

      Seems like the author forgot to put what gun advocates don’t want to admit.

      • Mike Grimm

        The Author typed; The National Rifle Association (NRA) would have you believe that guns stop murders. The gun control lobby would have you believe that gun control reduces murders. They are both wrong. So, no, the Author did not forget. The gun advocates are not as stupid as you’d like to believe. We actually already know that guns won’t stop ALL murders. But in those cases where a gun WILL stop a murder, we “gun advocates” are going to do all that we can to stop the murder. Gun advocates do not advocate guns to use them to initiate an attack on others. It’s not “retaliation” or “assault” or “vigilantism” to protect your life or the live’s of others by using a force equal to or greater than the threat, to stop the threat. Our goal is not to kill the attacker, nor to torture or seek vengeance. The goal is to stop the threat. A wounded attacker usually is no longer a threat. If one day there are zero firearms, and I mean zero, will there be no murder? No, history shows murder was invented long before the gun, and it will almost certainly be around long after.
        By the way,
        1. The NRA was originally not a civil rights organization, and was founded in 1871 for rifle marksmanship training.
        2. The NRA has a history of being for gun control.

        In 1934, the NRA supported the National Firearms Act, which served to regulate and tax firearms that were considered used by gangsters at the time. They also supported the Gun Control Act of 1968, which expanded on the system to license firearm dealers and prohibit criminals and those with mental impairments from owning firearms.
        3. The NRA has a history of supporting the Civil Rights Movement.

        While African Americans were being terrorized by the Ku Klux Klan, where the Klan were sometimes aided by local law enforcement, the NRA setup charters to help train local African American communities to be able protect themselves. The most prominent case being in 1960 in Monroe, N.C. where the local National Association for the Advancement of Colored People head Robert Williams also chartered an NRA Rifle Club that successfully defended an assault on one of their leader’s homes by the KKK without casualties.

        According to a recent Gallup poll, 54% of Americans hold a favorable view of the NRA, while 38% have an unfavorable view.

        • “we “gun advocates” are going to do all that we can to stop the murder.”
          You cannot make this blanket statement and expect to retain credibility.
          Ask any vet, a gun fight isn’t like in the movies. People panic, most people with guns panic.
          There was 5 ‘good guys with guns’ around Reagan, he still got shot four times.

          • The new cleavage

            You can’t just make a blanket statement like that. You just lost all your credibility. See how I just ignored everything you said and changed the subject to discredit you so I don’t have to argue my point? I have a 7 year old niece who uses the same tactics. Liberals are big children.

            • You just replied like a seven year old. It’s rubbing off on you.

          • Ron Roy

            Yeah and just imagine how MANY more people would try and murder the president if he DIDN’T have ARMED security.

            • There were 5 ‘good guys with guns’ around Reagan, he still got shot four times.

    • Lucas Baxter

      Wanna know how to stop gun violence and kill the homicide rate?
      Put money into the people, so EVERY American can survive without having to resort to commit crimes to be able to survive, Offer FREE Drug rehabs, have the government stop shipping in metric tons of cocaine and heroin to hook the US population and BAM, homicide rates will drop significantly if not all together.

      • jmeg8237

        I agree the War on Drugs has been a waste of time and money, but I can’t completely agree with your statement that putting money into people will stop gun violence and crime in general. Sadly, there will always be a portion of the population who see taking advantage of others as an easy way to survive. Even if you remove illicit drugs from the playing field, there will always be robberies, rapes, burglaries, etc. because some people simply feel the need to exert their superiority over others to gain money, power, etc.

    • James

      So you use a homicide rate for Britain but because that won’t work for Australia (the most recent years show a 35% drop in the homicide rate for Australia against before the gun ban) you switch to total number of homicide and ignore the significant growth in population in that time?
      I guess you are not even trying to be taken seriously any more.

      • Bob Coco

        In AU, the trend was on a downward slope before the ban, and that trend continued, any drop is not gun related, it was happening anyway. Nice try though.

        • James

          Wow – nice job. Completely ignore the accusation and move the goalposts to a completely new argument altogether – the Donald himself would be proud of that piece of deflection. So the Australian murder rate was And you have data to back that up? No of course you do not because again it is simply not true. The intentional homicide rate in Australia varied only between 1.6 and 1.9 per 100,000 from 1989 when the National Homicide Monitoring Program first began to 1997 the year of the gun buyback program. So while it may have dipped slightly in 1995 this can hardly be seen to represent a significant long term downward trend.
          In the last decade this rate has averaged below 1.2
          So even if we accept a small downward trend prior to 1997 (which is dubious in its significance) we would still have to accept that the trend did not “continue” but significantly sped up.

          • RonnyMexico

            So, if one concedes the point that Australia has experienced a decrease in homicide rates per capita after thier gun ban then how do you suggest we proceed? We would then have data that shows in 2 out of 3 cases gun control doesn’t work at all and comes at the cost of more deaths before we it gets back to doing…nothing at all (in 2 of 3 examples). Based on these three examples, doesn’t logic tell you that gun control USUALLY A) temporarily causes more homicide and B) doesn’t work at all in the long term? It would seem those are the facts.

            • James

              Ronny – if the Australia example is not needed to prove the pro-gun point one has to wonder why so many people lie so egregiously about it.
              I do not favor a complete gun ban, and I have never advocated one.
              I am not as familiar with the UK and Ireland situations.
              The Australian buy back program was predominantly about long guns. To argue that AR15 style weapons are used for self defense is beyond ridiculous.
              I am simply in favor of having this debate based on truth – not the sort of nonsense peddled in this article.

              • stellar1

                If you don’t want a gun Don’t Buy one… you don’t tell anyone else what to do…

              • John Crawford

                The reason we pro-gun folks speak of Australia is that the anti-gun side continually raises it. We don’t need it to prove that our Constitution protects our Right to keep and bear arms.
                Semper fi

                • James

                  So we are agreed then – you guys will stop lying about what happened in Australia?

                  • John Crawford

                    You guys? I have never lied. Australian stats are online. They tell the story perfectly.
                    Semper fi

              • mookiepook

                Some interesting points presented by you and others. I’m going to admit that I have a hard time understanding the truth of many statistics, but although I am a staunch proponent of the Second Amendment I still want to know the truth, whether that supports my beliefs or not. You guys keep slicing those stats and I’ll keep reading to see if I can learn something.

                That said, I think a number of the Korean shopkeepers who kept their stores looter-free and unburned during the LA riots would argue that the AR15 and long guns in general do qualify as an appropriate tool for self-defense. Gun control advocates like to minimize that example because it happened nearly 25 years ago, but I can still remember what it was like waiting for it to flow south to our neighborhood–and while some of the societal pressures of that time are much less of an issue now, I think a repeat performance or worse is an absolute possibility given the right mix of conditions. There are some truly dark people in the world, some of them with rifles (our local MS-13 proliferation comes to mind) and if you ever have to deal with one a handgun may not fit the bill.

                Anyway, the most important justification for the AR15 is to give the citizen a last option in the event they need to exercise the ultimate intent of the Second Amendment. I don’t expect to see such a thing in my lifetime and I don’t obsess over it, but I believe we are more empowered with it than without.

            • James

              I found some updated stats on Britain. The author cites a rang of 10.9 – 13 homicides per million before the ban. The last 3 years have all been below 10. Now I do not know if you can attribute that to gun bans. But can we please stop the lie that homicide rates have not fallen significantly?
              Regarding the temporary rise after the ban – well Ireland was in a state of virtual civil war in the 1970s – hardly representative of the longer term trend.

              • RonnyMexico

                No, we can’t stop James because it’s been far too long for that to be meaningful as it relates to the gun ban. Way too many variables and too much time to make that connection at this point. Why is it so hard to admit that gun bans have no meaningful impact on homicide rates? It’s obvious that it doesn’t at this point. People who want to commit a homicide simply switch to another weapon or find a gun on the black market. I think the pro gun control crowd would get a lot further if they took the time to understand what they are talking about, such as what a semi automatic “asault rifle” really is and stop exaggerating when it comes to the reality of statistics.

                • James

                  Ronny – I did not connect it to the gun ban – I specifically said that I was not doing so. I asked that the gun lobby stop LYING about other countries’ gun stats – you seem to be admitting on behalf of the gun lobby that you will not stop those lies.

                  • James

                    I think you would get a lot further if you took the time to actually look at the stats instead of lying about what they say – and if you stopped using truly moronic arguments like that all murders are preplanned involving someone who “wants to commit a homicide” and so prepares for it by buying a gun specifically for that purpose.

              • DJ Yates

                James… I challenge you to explore the overall crime rates, and the post ban numbers on same.

                May I assume, that you are NOT saying we should all be willing to endure significantly more crime, including non-lethal violent crime, in order to “better regulate” firearms?

                Just as an aside… for anyone who studies our nation’s founders even a little bit… an item of note… they had a much better working knowledge of history and civilizations than the mass majority of Americans and Canadians. They also understood the implication of the range of fault and virtue typical for human beings… and the fact that despite passing of time… the realm of human behavior was predictable.

                Simply put… “Men (and women) are not angels”… avarice and lust for power were a common shadow side of human behavior for millennia.

                THAT was the entire argument behind placing the Bill of Rights as part of the Rule of Law in The Constitution. It was for protection of rights that are not granted… but natural by birth… that history abundantly shows are commonly abused by those who gain money and seek power over their fellows.

                Men are not angels.

                • James

                  DJ Yates – I have provided that information. There is no massive increase in other crimes in Australia or UK after the gun bans. In fact quite the opposite. So why not have a look at what I have provided instead of challenging me to provide it while falsely claiming what you think it will say when I do.

                  • DJ Yates

                    You are limiting your data set to gun violence. That is fine, if the only purpose of guns on their own is to commit gun deaths… but that is the fallacy that folks who are afraid of guns tend to believe.

                    REMEMBER… the ONLY folks who will OBEY the law, are “law abiding citizens”. Forget criminals and the lawless… take them OUT of the equation James.

                    Let’s break it out very simply into 2 groups, and what they use guns for, shall we?

                    USE OF GUNS

                    Law abiding folks: defensive use, self, family, property, community (actually much more frequent use is for non self defense purposes… but that’s not salient to this discussion.)

                    IMPACT of firearms legislation: At the affect of additional laws, does not want to break law.

                    Criminals, those who do or plan to commit criminal behavior: Criminal activities, offensive use in commission of crimes (…and probably some of the same non-criminal activities mentioned about legal gun owners, but not salient to the discussion.)

                    IMPACT of firearms legislation: Some to little or none. Will not alter behavior, or adhere to current law. Only interested in selfish means to an end, and won’t follow law even as it applies to legal ownership when not committing crime.

                    JAMES… with the above 2 categories of holders of firearms, now let’s consider this whole topic with THIS question in mind:

                    – What impact has the restrictions on firearms had on ALL categories of crime, in the U.K. and Australia?

                    The answer to that is very simple, although more impactful in Australia than the U.K.**

                    Overall higher levels of crime, especially in Australia. **(The U.K. is essentially an Orwellian surveillance state. Video cameras are, literally, everywhere. The average urban resident has their image captured on CCTV more than 2000 times a day.)

                    I’m not saying it’s great, James… but the DATA is consistent and overwhelming.

                    Talk to rank and file cops in Australia (not politically appointed), and they will tell you morale is way down, and they are overwhelmed by the increase in overall crime. They just can’t keep up.

                    That may be fine for some… but trading a lower death rate for a dramatic increase in every kind of non-murder crime will NOT fly in the U.S., especially when it is settled case law by SCOTUS, that Law Enforcement is NOT obliged to protect citizens from being victims of crime.

                    • James

                      “You are limiting your data set to gun violence” – no I am not. I posted data for all violent crime and for all property crime. It is not limited to guns at all.
                      You continually make claims here without any data to support them – and reject, quite wrongly, any data put before you before coming back to your original lie – that historical evidence elsewhere suggest a trade-off of ” a lower death rate for a dramatic increase in every kind of non-murder crime”.
                      Anecdotal nonsense like “talk to a cop” means nothing. The data is there in black and white – you however do not want to accept the truth and so keep peddling these lies.

            • DJ Yates

              Folks should pay particular attention to one of the nuances in this article… and this thread.

              The dialog isn’t talking about “Crime”. It is talking about gun crime resulting in death.

              This is no small point. The personal and property crime rates in Australia and the U.K. went WAY up. People will have to decide if living with dramatically increased personal and property crime, is a fair trade for the illusory appearance of safety.

          • DJ Yates

            James… in the U.S., until the genius banksters blew up the financial world in 2008, from 1995 the violent crime rate in the U.S. was down around 50% (according to the FBI crime data).

            During this same period, and in almost direct correlation, States increasingly passing Concealed Carry laws.

            Statistically, correlation can NOT be proved as causation… for either side of the argument. But if folks who are pro-gun control want to make specious arguments about gun laws and gun violence where THEY claim correlation/causation… then they are in no position to cry “foul” when folks who are pro Bill of Rights do the same.

            There is one problem though, on the playing field of that argument. Pro BoR folks have a LOT more points of correlation/causation to use in the argument, then anti-gun folks.

            ANY discussion about these issues, should be void of logical fallacies… which is why pro BoR folks get so worked up on this topic.

            Watching Media and politicians who want more laws and bans, and actually tracking the quality of their facts… is like having to watch that idiot Republican in Missouri a couple years ago who claimed “women who are raped can’t get pregnant, because their bodies prevent it.” The quality of fact checking on the gun topic is ABYSMAL

      • DJ Yates

        …and the violent crime and property crime rates in both Britain and Australia both went UP.

        Annoying part of this article… it only tracks homicides. In Australia, the property crime rates are dramatically UP. Personal and property crimes against folks who are over 65 (for whom guns are a dramatic “equalizer”) spiked up almost 300%, and have stayed very very high.

        Ask non-politcal appointee rank and file cops in AU about “after ban” crime, and they will tell you they are completely overwhelmed in many areas… folks are pretty much on their own, because the police just can’t do anything to prevent crime.

    • nathan

      “The reasoning is pretty clear: you need rifles to overthrow a government.” Of course, that must be why America keeps getting overthrown by 3rd world governments. We need to stop wasting our money on an Air Force and tanks and missiles and stuff and make more rifles!

      • RonnyMexico

        I think you missed the point here. The word “overthrow” is a clue. The article is saying that governments don’t want their own “citizens” to be well armed with rifles because that would make the citizenry more capable of “overthrowing” their own government.

    • Charlton Wilson

      What absolute rubbish. The ban in Australia was on automatic and semi-automatic weapons to reduce or eliminate mass shootings after the Port Arthur massacre. Since then, (this is the 20th year) there has not been a single mass shooting in Australia.

      It’s be nice if if you media people would tell the WHOLE truth once in a while… >:(

      • John Williams

        the article said nothing about mass shootings, it only sited number of murders. Have a wonderful day

      • Nique

        Has it occurred to anyone that maybe it wasn’t the ban on guns in Australia that has kept them safer from terrorism, but the diligence of the Australian government to thwart the proliferation of terrorist types in their country? Criminals and terrorists don’t follow the laws, they use the black market/ISIS types to obtain what they need to destroy lives. So, there must be something extraordinary that the Australians are doing to protect their country. Here in America, our very own POTUS can’t even utter the word ISIS, but goes above and beyond to disagree with the fact that terrorism is the goal of radical Islam (and some might argue that it’s “good” Islam’s highest goal to destroy infidels, as well). Could it be because he is Muslim? Oh, he claims to be Christian, but that’s about as true as me claiming to be the Queen of England; I can say whatever I want, but that doesn’t make it true. Actions speak louder than words. But folks, the only success that gun control provides is to allow the good folks to be dominated by the bad folks. As this article says, we need to change the heart and attitude of society. BTW, abortion, the most heinous form of murder, far exceeds the death rate of gun violence. But nobody seems to think abortion is worth banning. As the quote goes, “would it mean something if abortions were done using guns?” So if you’re concerned about terrorism, don’t take away my only protection, my shotgun; you just might be saved by my diligence to protect my family, friends, and neighbors.

    • phil box

      gun or weapon control has absolutely nothing to do with guns/weapons. it is all about taking away your rights. if you can not fight back you won’t, that is until life get so bad that dying looks better than living. and that always happens under a dictator.

      • Lee O. Welter

        This book affirms your view: ESCAPE FROM CAMP 14 about North Korea and one very fortunate survivor (escapee).

      • DanD

        Nuclear weapons control has absolutely nothing to do with nuclear weapons. It is all about taking away your rights. etc…

        There are already sensible restrictions in place on the right to keep and bear arms, and they work well in those categories. Adding a few more reasonable restrictions (universal background checks, magazine capacity limits) don’t harm your ability to defend yourself, unless you’re one of the people that the country has already decided shouldn’t have firearms for valid legal reasons.

        • phil box

          first off, look at how england lost their guns. a little chip here, a little chip there and pretty soon, no guns. besides there are ample existing laws that if enforced would do the job. you should read the 10(?) steps to socialism sometime, then reflect on how those steps have been applied to AMerica.

          • DanD

            There really aren’t. Right now there is a simple and common path whereby someone who is legally not supposed to buy a gun can get one, and the purchasing individual (who clearly does not care about the law) is the only one who has violated the law. And that path is the route whereby 96%+ of convicted felons purchase a gun.

            Requiring background checks for all sales, along with providing a simple method to allow non-licensees to make such checks, is a simple change. It doesn’t prevent anyone new from buying a gun. It simply prevents people from who aren’t supposed to buy from violating the law.

            • phil box

              3rd line mid sentence of your reply tells you why more gun laws are worthless. only law abiding citizens will be affected by more laws.

              • DanD

                And apparently your reading comprehension is lousy. Yes, requiring all sales to do background checks does affect law abiding citizens. Specifically, it prevents them from selling guns to criminals. So it doesn’t only affect them.

                • phil box

                  by definition criminals do not obey the law. so any law is not going to be obeyed by a criminal who chooses not to obey that or any law. waste of tax payer money again.

                  • DanD

                    And still, you’re missing the point. Right now: Law abiding gun owner sells gun through private sale. Background check not required. No law requires him to make certain the purchaser is legally allowed to buy a gun. Gun is sold to criminal.

                    With universal background checks: Law abiding gun owner attempts to sell gun. Does a background check, learns purchaser is not allowed to buy gun. Gun is not sold to criminal.

                    • phil box

                      no i have not missed your point. so what about you selling me a “lemon” car. should you be required to provide me with proof the car is road worthy? what about the tv you want to get rid of. i will need proof that it meets radiation limits. my point is, with the government mindset today, if you give them an opening pretty soon you are on the “no fly” for improper use of toilet paper. our 2nd amendment was add to prevent the type of government stupid people let happen. a name on one government list will soon be on all government lists. look at how the irs persecuted those who had pissed off obama. don’t think because you are squeaky clean not that tomorrow you won’t be on a government list. once there is a leak in the dam, soon the dam collapses. there is a whole world just past the end of your nose.

                      • DanD

                        Knowingly selling a lemon car without disclosing is illegal. Likewise knowingly selling a TV that was damaged or recalled for a safety issue.

                        Knowingly selling a gun to a felon who hasn’t had his rights restored is illegal. This just increases the percentage of people who know before they sell. It is not an undue burden, and it doesn’t actually infringe on the right to keep and bear arms (because it’s only relevant when you are getting rid of a gun, not when you acquire it). For that matter, the courts have already ruled that a background check during fire-arms sales is not an infringement.

                        So please look up “slippery slope” and stop being an extremist.

                      • David G. Lander

                        So, from what you are saying, selling a firearm to a criminal is already illegal, right (and, yes, it most certainly is)? So there is no need to add any other restrictions, because it is already illegal, and from what you say that means it doesn’t happen, correct?

                      • DanD

                        Knowingly selling a firearm to a felon is illegal. Unkowingly selling one is not. However, there is currently no requirement that the seller make certain that the receiver is not a felon. Adding that requirement is not an undue burden.

                      • David G. Lander

                        Ignorance of the law is no protection. If you unknowingly sell stolen property, then you can still be tried for it, just as if you unknowingly sell a firearm to someone who is barred from their purchase you may still be tried for it. People protect themselves from this by completing ‘private’ transactions through a dealer, who will process the transfer for them, or they protect themselves by only making private sales to people whom they know explicitly.

                      • DanD

                        Ignorance of the law is not protection. Ignorance of the buyer is. The way the laws are written now, the seller has no duty to know, they are legally permitted to sell to anyone who claims they are a legal buyer.

                    • David G. Lander

                      You do realize that not every criminal will appear on a background check, and there have been cases where people have been able to legally purchase firearms, even though they have malicious intent because they have had a clean record, up until they have carried out their plans, right?

                      • DanD

                        Yes. If you had the power to wave a wand and stop 50% of car accidents, would you not do it because of the other 50%?

                • David G. Lander

                  And it will specifically not affect a criminal who would burglarize, or otherwise steal a firearm. Nor would it affect one criminal from selling stolen, or otherwise acquired firearms, illegally, to another criminal. It seems in that case the limitations are only set upon those who abiding by the law, without meaningfully impact the criminal element, whom the law is proposed to prevent.

                  • DanD

                    Nope, it wouldn’t prevent stolen or black market guns. But it would cut off one more stream of guns from the legal to illegal markets. And without being an undue burden on the seller (assuming a convenient way was set up to do background checks). So yes, it would meaningfully impact the criminal element.

                    • David G. Lander

                      Except that there is already a method in place for this, which is to complete your ‘private’ sale through a licensed dealer.

                    • mariojuggernaut22

                      What about guns that were made illegally? Not that hard to do with the proper machinery which won’t cost you much anyway.

                      • Bluesman1950

                        Hard to do well. Unless you are a gunsmith or very skilled mechanic with very good tools you are likely to make something that will do you more harm than anybody else.

                      • mariojuggernaut22

                        Not really. A Mexican Cartel can easily make their guns. Also look at some of these homemade creations. Couples with the fact that the sten gun could have easily been made in a bicycle shop. Guns are not that difficult to make with the right machinery.

                      • DanD

                        Really? Have you priced a milling machine?

                        Or do you mean a cheap thing done with a drill press, which is more likely to blow your hand off than hit a target more than 5 feet away? And a home 3D printer isn’t going to do much better, and still cost much more.

                        There’s a reason there hasn’t been a rash of home-made guns popping up in states or countries with more restrictive gun laws.

                      • mariojuggernaut22

                        The problem is that you are basing that assertion on the technology of today. In the future, this stuff will get more cheaper. Also there are guns that are relatively easy to make. Just look at here for example.

                      • DanD

                        You mean I’m basing it on the real world, not the way I think it’s going to be in 20 years? Yes, you’re right.

                        And see my above, re:accurate above 5 feet. If you don’t have a way to ream the barrel, you won’t get there, and that’s not a cheap piece of equipment for a hand gun, let alone a long gun.

                      • mariojuggernaut22

                        Since 3rd printing is getting cheaper each year, in about 20 years , it would be simple to print a gun especially ones with a metallic compound. Take this 3D printed jet engine for example. Remember computers use to be expensive machines but they have gotten cheaper over time.

                      • DanD

                        You mention that it’s getting cheaper, then pull out one of the most expensive machines on the market.

                        The baseline for a metal capable 3D printer is a welder, so $4-500. And that is a mature technology, so it’s not going to get significantly cheaper. That’s just for the baseline capability to melt or partially melt metal. It allows nothing for the controls, the mechanical components, the feedstock, etc.

                        To say nothing of the water cooling (also a mature technology, ~$1k) that a continuous feed metal capable head would require.

                        Yes, costs are coming down sharply right now, but the typical cost curve for a new technology tends to be a limit curve, as the cost savings reach a point of diminishing returns.

                        And no mater what you do, 3D printing is inherently less precise than machining. It has to be since it’s a layer based process. That might change, but I would not expect it to.

                      • mariojuggernaut22

                        As I said, computers use to fill a room. Now they don’t. I see vast improvements with size and preposition of the technology in the future.

                      • DanD

                        I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with “preposition” there, but yes, technology does get cheaper, to a point. But, again, for a metals capable 3D printer, the heart of it is an a already mature technology. Barring a fundamental breakthrough in techniques for melting metal, the true cost will not drop significantly below the baseline I mentioned above.

                        Computers in the 50s and 60s were not a mature technology. Realistically, they still aren’t, although they’re a lot closer. Arc welding, on the other hand, is over 200 years old. Laser Sintering is a lot younger, but laser produced heat is inherently (thermodynamically) less efficient than resistance welding. Additive manufacturing has it’s advantages, but it has it’s limits as well.

        • David G. Lander

          Please explain how universal background checks, and magazine capacity limits are ‘reasonable’ restrictions. Also, please explain why my not believing in those ‘reasonable’ restrictions means that I shouldn’t have a firearm for valid legal reasons? Further, please inform as to what a ‘reasonable’ capacity for a magazine would be, and why. Thank you.

          • DanD

            Reasonable restrictions: Restrictions that do not place an undue burden on the legal gun owner’s right to keep and bear arms.

            Universal background checks are an extension of a system that is already proven to work (not perfectly, but well). It does not create any barrier to the legal purchase of firearms, only a barrier to illegal ones.

            Magazine capacity limits do not prevent any legal use of a gun. They do, I admit, prevent you from going to the target range and running through 30 rounds quickly, but being able to do that isn’t a legal requirement. I’d love to see a 3 round limit, but I suspect 9 or 10 rounds would be considered a reasonable compromise.

            And where did I say anything about adding people to the list of who shouldn’t have a gun? I was pointing out that background checks only prevent those who already aren’t supposed to have guns from acquiring them through that route.

            • mookiepook

              A few points to consider:

              I’m assuming that you are not a proponent of the Second Amendment? If you were, you would understand that it exists because the framers knew that traits such as corruption, greed and the hunger for power were inherent to man’s nature, and would inevitably lead to the strong (government) oppressing the weak, particularly if the cost of doing so was low. That’s a unique attribute of our system of government that I happen to think is a good one, and as legitimate now as it was back then.

              With that in mind, why wouldn’t law-abiding citizens of sound mind have access to the same tools of defense as local law enforcement? It certainly can’t be because cops are more trustworthy, their rate of violent crime is on par with the general population’s and their rate of sexual assault is much higher. Note that these new magazine restrictions don’t apply to retired police officers…don’t you find it a little worrisome that long-term state employees are–in the state’s eyes–either more trustworthy or of higher value?

              With regards to pistol magazines and the assertion that no one needs more than three rounds or 10 rounds, or any other arbitrary number less than what the handgun in question was designed for–I ask you this: When you drive your family on a cross-country vacation (or drive anywhere) do you (1) do so with the minimum amount of gas needed to get to your destination (2) add a little more than you think is required, or (3) do you plan for the worst and fill it all the way up?

              If we accept that one of the reasons (or even the primary reason) for a law-abiding citizen to own a handgun is to defend themselves against a potentially lethal attack, why would we artificially restrict ourselves to less than the firearm was designed to carry? In police shootings it typically requires more than two rounds of 9mm to incapacitate a suspect — that means two or more rounds must hit the suspect. Given the chaos and stress of a shooting there will often be misses, there may be more than one attacker, and it wouldn’t be an incredibly rare event to find that the 15 rounds in your normal (factory issue) Glock magazine were not enough, much less the ten in a reduced capacity California-compliant magazine. Cops expend more than 10 rounds in shootings on a regular basis, why are civilians less deserving of having the same chance of survival?

              California already had Federal background checks for firearms purchases. Now the state wants their own register. If you surmise that it’s an eventual lead-in to a complete ban or even confiscation, you are painted as a paranoid whacko. But I ask you, what sort of whacko puts their trust in a powerful, elitist organization with a track record of deceit, corruption, and criminal behavior (google Sen. Leland Yee for some ironic scandal)? Especially when they’ve been steadily encroaching for thirty years on what may of us thought was a constitutionally guaranteed right.

              I don’t doubt that there are some well-meaning, upstanding civil servants on both sides of the aisle in Sacramento, but there are plenty of narcissists, sociopaths, and garden variety conmen as well. Governments have been going back on promises, trampling rights, and generally acting like what they are (human beings with power) since the beginning of history — and because constitutionalists and gun rights advocates are a minority in California, our rights are being stepped all over so the politicos can make the general population feel like something positive is happening. And when one group’s rights are abused, the freedoms of all groups become a little less secure.

              Anyway, I’m a moderate law-abiding citizen, but I woke up this week to find that the rifle I legally purchased in California, after passing a federal background check and completing a firearms safety test, that isn’t an “assault weapon”, must now be registered as an assault weapon in a state that is clearly suspicious of a person that would own such a thing, and that I’ll be a felon if I don’t do so, and that I can’t pass this item on to one of my children even though I paid a not insignificant amount for it, and that for evermore if I’m pulled over for a traffic violation or falsely accused of domestic violence (happens all the time) I run the risk of some excitable gun-phobic officer pulling up my name on a state database to see that I own an “assault rifle” and injecting his personal bias with unjust/unpleasant consequences. I also woke up to the fact that the (normal) capacity magazines for my handguns, that were previously legal, are now also going to be criminal to possess, and I must now use 10-round magazines in a pistol designed for 15, when it’s somehow legal in almost every other state in the nation to have normal capacity magazines.

              Now…if I was the only Californian affected by this, or even one of a thousand (and I didn’t believe my rights were being violated) I might be able to suck this up my rationalizing my situation as so unique that it wouldn’t be reasonable to expect any consideration from the State or my fellow citizens….but based on all the numbers I could find, there’s anywhere from 200,000 to possibly over a million guns in California that fit the State’s definition of “assault rifle”. Conservatively, we can assume at least 200,000 otherwise law-abiding citizens are affected (but possibly a more than a million) and at risk of becoming felons if they don’t comply, whether knowingly or out of ignorance. Now consider that many times more Californians own handguns, and a percentage of those are in possession of normal capacity magazines (typically more than the state mandates 10 rounds).

    • SickOf BeingCoddled

      you are correct. Ending violence is not the goal of those under cover behind the scenes gun ban advocates. Making WE the PEOPLE unable to keep the government off our necks and out of our pockets- that is their goal. Let’s not succumb to the lies .

    • Mike Redick

      You need a lot more than rifles to overthrow a modern government these days. A rifle isn’t going to do you a lot of good against a tank.

      • Rudeforthought

        Tanks without infantry support are close to useless. They’re not invincible and are surprisingly vulnerable given their relative lack of agility, and visibility. Infantry have been destroying tanks since their invention and most of the same vulnerabilities exist whether it’s immobilizing them and pelting them with sustained mortar fire or other mobile infantry weapons, or trapping it in an improvised hole disguised to look like normal ground. At the end of the day a tank is a specialized piece of equipment designed to function alongside other components of our military. It all still does come down to infantry, or “boots on the ground,” as they say today on the news. And as the saying goes, “if it bleeds, we can kill it.” A lot of the people most invested in overthrowing a hostile government, particularly in the US, are former employees of the military and know exactly how it operates. Professionalism and training are one of the few real edges a national military has over an insurgent population.

        The only truly effective trump card a modern government has against a populace is carpet-bombing or nuclear ordnance. And using those things on your populace makes a lot more enemies than it kills.

      • Enderby

        I think armed citizens, with no access to tanks, machine guns, or grenades are effective because of the psychology behind an army. A government can send an army into the streets to quell a protest of unarmed citizens and order them to fire rubber bullets and tear gas to disperse the mob. But if the citizens are armed, the army, made up of citizens themselves, will not want to exchange gunfire with their neighbors, school teachers, cousins, or the children of their friends. Most revolutions are relatively peaceful……the people assemble en masse and the soldiers switch sides, and and armed populace makes it all the easier for soldiers to switch sides. It happened in our American revolution. Although the British soldiers readily shot American rebels, the American loyalist rapidly lost the stomach for it….either running from the British ranks to either switch sides or flee to Canada. Support for the American revolution was very weak in 1774, but grew to a majority by 1777. It never would have happened if the colonislists weren’t armed, and vastly superior British firepower eventually proved incapable of defeating the will of an armed population.

        • Lee O. Welter

          Thanks for your succinct summary. A more extensive account it in the book LAFAYETTE IN THE SOMEWHAT UNITED STATES:

        • Banaschar

          A small difference between 1776 and 2016. The British government didn’t reside in North America. Nor did we threaten the British Empire, save a possible minor nuisance to the Canadian territories (where the advantages of local insurgency would disappear). We mostly made ourselves far more of a nuisance than we were worth while politics in the British Parliament did the rest.

          Far more likely that the U.S. government will wait it out patiently and let the dissidents make a mess of things on their own, or wait for an opportune moment to cripple the leadership with a minimum of conflict (a la Malheur). They gain no advantage by firing the first shots in a pitched battle, and I guarantee you that they know that.

          You’ve seen what the media has made of most protest movements where a few people throw bricks and molotovs, right? Do you think it’s going to be more sympathetic when the crowd opens fire on police or the National Guard?

          Without the ability to project force, I just see the armed militants on the losing ends of both a siege and a PR war. Anything relying on a mass, popular uprising didn’t need the weapons in the first place; they let the government defeat itself.

      • DrMcNinja

        To put it in perspective, the US government had a far easier time defeating the Iraqi army compared to a smaller and significantly less equipped insurgency.

      • 5MMs

        And I would have no problem with a citizen owning a tank, a 50 caliber , or even a Howitzer to go along with their rifles.

    • JacoLantern

      Way to be misleading with the UK statistic. Trimming the graph so 2001-2003 is prominent. See the 2002/3 statistic is so high because Harold Shipman was convicted of 170+ unlawful killings he committed over a few decades. They were all recorded at once regardless of the year he committed the crime. He was a doctor unlawfully killing patients with medication. It has nothing to do with guns. 2001/2 is inflated by 58 deaths because some illegal chinese immigrants suffocated in a truck. The average year in the UK has less than 600 total deaths. 60 deaths are a massive spike and those deaths are nothing to do with guns.

      Remove those two events and the graph is just as flat as all the others entirely negating your bullshit point.

      • El_Tigre_Loco

        I think a valid point is if guns are removed, killers can find other means. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind. Some guys in China killed a bunch of people with knives. Scandinavian countries are having people killed with guns. To really kill a lot of people, Mateen should have used Molotov cocktails according to what I heard on O’Reilly tonight. There was only one entrance/exit to the club. The others were padlocked.

      • RonnyMexico

        Okay, let’s concede that it is a bullshit point. Now you are left with the fact that gun control does absolutely nothing to lower homicides, but hey, at least it doesn’t make them go up right?

    • Pingback: Hill No! – Since Australia Has Banned Guns This is What’s Happening in Their Streets with Muslims…()

    • Pingback: Since Australia Has BANNED GUNS This is What’ MUSLIMS ARE DOING IN THEIR STREETS ... HORRIFYING -()

    • Xenoace

      When Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people he did not fire one shot. He used a rental filled with 7000 pounds of ammonium nitrate, nitro-methane, and diesel fuel. How quickly we forget!

      • TheBamaKid1962

        They changed the composition of the fertilizer to stop a repeat performance of McVey’s hatred of the government, however, I am sure the “intelligent loons” in our society have already or will soon find a substitute. I am still of the belief that many of these mass killings can be traced back to DC, but how could one prove that without getting killed themselves?

        • Thvwandool Yusef Moring

          Already found long before the change. A trip to any cleaning supply cabinet in America provides suitable substitutes. And some damned good ones.

          • TheBamaKid1962

            Yet another thing I didn’t know. I know that certain chemicals mixed together can make a large hole in the ground…or one humongous fireball. I am way behind in bomb making 101, which is okay by me.

          • DanD

            It also tends to produce damaged or dead bombers. Mixing explosives is easy. Not blowing yourself up with them and still getting them to explode on command, not so much.

        • El_Tigre_Loco

          Flour, sugar, many powdered substances make perfectly good bombs.

          • TheBamaKid1962

            Thanks +El_Tigre_Loco I watch a lot of mythbusters and never saw that. Thanks for the info although it’s something I don’t need, I just knew they changed the composition of the AmNi

          • DanD

            No, they really don’t. Yes, dust explosions are a huge risk. Deliberately creating one is difficult. And the explosive force is low for the volume used.

            Remember the important criteria for a bomb is not explosive power, it’s being able to apply that power on demand (and only on demand).

      • El_Tigre_Loco

        The crime is in the mind of the person(s), and that mind will find a way.

    • Gray Liddell

      Jews for the Preservation of firearms Ownership in Wisconsin has a great chart, listing the gun control law and the number of people murdered by their government as a result of their good intentions on gun control and
      resulting defenselessness. It is about preventing the government from having a monopoly on the use of lethal violence.

      A guy named R. J. Rummel lists the number of people slaughtered BY THEIR GOVERNMENTS when they were blessed with gun control.

      Hands and Feet Kill more people very year than rifles
      Table 8

      • gailpurpleangel

        Just to let you know – None of the 3 sites you posted actually open. Maybe it’s my computer but All 3 say something like “the page you requested cannot be found.” Pretty weird. Esp disappointing because I wanted to read them.

        • deaderpool

          all three worked fine on my chrome browser.

          • gailpurpleangel

            thanks. the 3 you just provided all work for me now (?). i appreciate the info.

      • Gray Liddell
        • gailpurpleangel

          thanks for reposting. these 3 worked for me now.

      • DanD

        Only because of the size of the category “Firearms, Type not stated” on the FBI link.

        • Gray Liddell
          • DanD

            And they have “Firearms, Type not stated” at 1,933. If 412 of those are rifles, then they’re equal. And since there’s no information to determine whether police are more or less likely to report the type if it’s a rifle, there’s uncertainty at best. (And practically speaking, less complete reports are going to come from smaller police departments, which are going to trend rural, which is a higher probability of a long gun instead of a hand gun).

            Also relevant is that the FBI statistics are known to be under-reported. Police department reporting to the FBI is voluntary, not all departments do so. Whether that has a bearing on the ratios is uncertain.

            • Gray Liddell

              I see what you are talking about now But(from the Volokh piece)
              ” If we assume that 5% of the homicides involved rifles (following the
              breakdown between known handgun homicides and known rifle homicides), then blunt object homicides would still exceed rifle homicides. If it’s 20%, for instance if handgun homicides are more likely to be provably identified as such, but rifle homicides are more likely to seem ambiguous, then rifle homicides would exceed blunt object homicides.”
              from here:
              You are using the higher 20% number of 412 whereas I would use the 5% number merely becasue that is the approximate ratio of rifles to
              handguns murders in the of 2010, 2011, 2012,3013and 2014 already
              reported numbers.
              But thanks for bringing the point up.

              • DanD

                I suspect you are right, although, I do think that “type uncertain” is likely to slew rifle somewhat, simply because of the nature of reporting (more detailed reports from more urban police forces) and the nature of the crime (I would guess fewer rifle murders are positively identified, because less evidence is present). I doubt it’s 20%, but the uncertainty exists.

                All that being said, however, there are several other relevant factors. First, 100% of people have access to hands and feet, and are technically capable of killing with them. Only ~33% of households have a gun in them (best estimate). Of those, I’m willing to assume that a significant percentage have a rifle, but far from all. Let’s say half, for the sake of argument. So, as a percentage of people with access, 2.8 times more rifle homicides are committed than hand homicides.

                Second, while the total number of rifle homicides is relatively low, the presence of high capacity semi-automatic long guns correlates very strongly with mass and spree killings. That’s why they tend to be targeted after mass shootings.

                I don’t remember if it was on this article or elsewhere, but I don’t actually support confiscation of guns. I do, however, think that certain regulations would be reasonable. Universal background checks, including on private sales (obviously combined with some system to make such checks simple). Strong limits on magazine capacity (if you need 30 shots for home defense or hunting, you are more of a threat to bystanders than to your target). More uniform rules, and enforcement thereof, against gun purchases by those that society has deemed unsuitable for such. Restriction of gun purchase rights for anyone who is convicted of a domestic violence charge, even a misdemeanor. None of those are, I think, unreasonable.

                I would also like to see significant restrictions on the purchase of guns by anyone who shares a household with a felon or someone who has been diagnosed with an appropriate mental illness, but I realize that one is a lot more controversial.

    • Seth Forbis

      i gotta say, this changed my mind…i was a supporter of gun control but now i wonder…statistics say if we banned handguns people would just switch to knives and poison and junk, one would think a gun murder would be easier to prevent and solve, considering that guns are loud, easily identifiable, and easily traceable compared to a knife murder…plus guns spray a nice coating of residue on your hands when you use them, that can be easily identified…

      • Ron I.

        The argument that those who want to kill lots of people would just do it with knives or poison is BS unless of course you become an expert, fast knife thrower and can carry a lot of knives on you. I guess you could just carry one knife and kill each person one by one; you know stick the knife into someone and then pull it back out and then move on to the next one. Does that sound doable to you? Be realistic..the reason people use guns is because its easy to do and so convenient; just pull the gun out and fire. If you run out of ammo drop the empty mag and pop another one in. How much time does that take…maybe 10 seconds? Probably not even that much time if you practice and who doesn’t practice when you want to kill a lot of people? Poison is a little bit trickier to use. You have to gain access to the food or drink and that might be a problem.

        So here is the test…to see if you have learned anything. You want to kill a lot of people in as little time as you can. Do you use knives or a gun. You might say a bomb and you would be correct. But you are not familiar with bombs and they can be tricky to use. I mean don’t want to blow yourself up by mistake do you? Of course not! Its the other innocent people you want to kill.

        If you said the answer is a gun, you would be correct. That is only my opinion of course but apparently other mass killers feel the same way…a gun is the way to go.

        • Kenny Servello Jr.

          Idiot,bombs are easier to get and can be made from anything. And this last shooting was a terrorist attack,not a mass shooting.

          • Amy King

            It was a mass shooting. Mass murder is defined by the FBI as the murder of four or more people in one event at one location. Fifty people were shot and killed at the Orlando night club. The event was a mass shooting. Period.

            It doesn’t matter one bit if the shooter was a terrorist, a homophobe, a closet gay, a Muslim, an atheist, a mentally ill person, or a combination of these things. These things only suggest a motive. The manner of death was, unquestionably, a mass shooting – the murder of more than four people in a single event, by shooting.

          • DanD

            Bombs are not “easier to get”, and cannot be “made from anything”. Commercial explosives sales are extremely restricted.

            And as far as home-brew explosives, it’s not actually that simple. More getting an explosive that explodes on command, and not when you brew it up is surprisingly difficult, and far more would be bomb makers take themselves out than a target.

        • Bill Citro

          you can kill more people with a car than a gun in a shorter period of time. with no training whatsoever

        • mark

          And if they don’t have a gun they could make a bomb or drive their vehicle into the crowd.I someone is hellbent on killing they will..

        • Thvwandool Yusef Moring

          I think you should read up on knife fighting. At 25 yards and knife is considered by experts to be more deadly than a handgun simply because it is faster to gut someone than pull a weapon release the safety aim and fire. A person can move 25 yards in about 1 second. Just the other day and jewelry killed6 homosexuals at a gay pride parade in Israel for the second time. The adage “don’t bring a knife to a gun fight” was said by a person who lacks knowledge in the art of homicide.

          • Amy King

            Um… a person can move 25 yards in 1 second?
            You might want to check your math…
            25 yards is 75 feet… 75 feet per second…
            That’s over 50 miles per hour.

            The average Olympian can sprint for short distances anywhere between 21 and 25 miles per hour. Your scenario is impossible.

            Ron is right. Unless you’re a trained knife-fighter attacking at close proximity, you’re not going to win against someone holding a gun.

            “It doesn’t take skill, just determination”… That statement is just silly. You could be the most determined little rascal that ever held a knife, but that won’t make a lick of difference if you don’t have a clue how to fight with it.

          • DanD

            A knife fighter is in reach of their opponent. A gun fighter is not.

            And you are drawing a false comparison between a drawn knife and a holstered handgun.

        • David G. Lander

          You just said that if you wanted to kill people using a gun, then you would practice using a gun. Why would you then make the qualification that your hypothetical mass murderer is not familiar with bombs? You can find information on assembling, and detonating bombs, just as easily as you can find information on using firearms.

    • Lisbon_G

      The facts and figures are pretty interesting, but the one thing I didn’t see (did I just miss it?) is that in Australia there was a gun ban even before the buy back in 1997. So it is not like the general population had an overabundance of weapons to begin with.

      • And the gun ban isn’t total now. I believe that handguns and semi-automatic rifles were the main things that were not banned beforehand and are banned now.

      • Bill Citro

        they confiscated almost 700,000 guns

    • Let’sBeFriends

      “Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.”

      LOL what is this purposely skewed, biased garbage? There hasn’t been one mass shooting in Australia since the ban on high caliber, high ROF weapons.

      • Mike Soukup

        The point was – there are STILL just as many dead people – whether it was done in a mass shooting or individually. Personally, if I am murdered – whether it was a mass shooting – or an individual stabbing me to death – it doesn’t REALLY matter- I’m dead.

        So, the ENTIRE point of the article (that you obviously missed) – is that with or without gun control – there are JUST AS MANY PEOPLE murdered. They just find other ways to do it.

        Your attitude shows the problem with using facts and logic on people who “want to believe a certain way”.

        • Let’sBeFriends

          Sure, let’s talk about facts and logic.

          The statistic that this article cherry picks out of a report (that also says that a) homicide incidents have shown a steady decline, and b) homicides committed with a firearm continued on a declining trend) out of context is completely misleading because it reflects only the absolute number of homicides rather than the homicide rate. This statistic may have a point, if the total population of Australia hadn’t have grown in 15 years.

          Australia had a population of 17,638,408 in ’93, the first year of the span in the example the author decided to source from, with the end date being ’07. Guess what the population of Australia was in 2007? 20,791,089.
          The point being that Australia grew in population by a few million and yet the homicides per year did not grow, and in fact got lower.

          Bottom line: there are less armed robberies, there are less homicides committed with firearms, and homicide rates have declined by about 20 percent in the past 22 years:

          Please tell me more about using facts and logic on people who “want to believe a certain way”.

          • Lionym

            This is one of the most well worded and informed responses I’ve ever seen. Bravo.

          • Christopher Glen Clouse

            Yes the key is homicides by firearms but not homocides in general. You are clearly missing the point. Why is being murdered by a firearm worse than being murdered at all? If you can amswer that one please let me know

          • ohdotell

            Nice Graph, Dippy. If you look close at the flat stretch between ’94 and’97 that is when the gun ban was put in place. You will then see an 8 year trend of increased homicides, and then a decrease beginning in 2003/4. If it was the guns that created the decrease it would have happened in ’98 at the latest.
            IT WASN’T THE GUN BUY BACK THAT CAUSED THIS. Not to mention the increase in other crimes… The guy buy back is a failure

            • Let’sBeFriends

              Hey if you want to willingly delude yourself, be my guest. Cheers gramps!

              • ohdotell

                It’s fact, no delusion. Don’t ignore facts.

                Please explain why it took 8 years of increases to finally see a decrease?

              • ohdotell

                Funny! In the face of irrefutable facts, you just go away. Probably for the best.

                • Let’sBeFriends

                  Quote from, stats running from 89 to 07: “Firearm use has declined by more than half since 1989-90 as a proportion of homicide methods”

                  The irrefutable fact is that the pointy end of every graph in terms of is lower right now in terms of gun related homicides, as a percentage of total homicides, so on and so forth. “Oh but the change wasn’t instantaneous!” is your only argument, ignoring everything else. I guess it’s just magic everything is lower. It’s the water. Again, you want to willingly delude yourself. I’m just leaving you to your devices. Addddddddios!

                  • ohdotell

                    Sorry, Man. I thought you were looking to reduce homicides. You aren’t! All you care about is gun deaths, which obviously decreased. And yes, Gun Homicides did decrease, immediately, like the next year. But you know what Total homicides continued to increase. What does that tell you? They simply used other methods. The pointy end of the graph is lower, but the evidence proves that it was not because of the gun restrictions.

                    Everything is lower, violent crime is up. Suicide hasn’t changed. The Gun restrictions did not accomplish the intended goal.

                    If guns were the cause of the murder then the overall homicide rate in australia would have decreased at the same, or somewhat slower rate. There is no explanation for an increase in the homicide rate for nearly 8 years.

                    • Let’sBeFriends

                      LOL the graph you replied to JUST ABOVE is specifically about homicides incidents you bloody troll. I already debunked that, and then you tried to argue specifically about the gun laws being ineffectual despite that, so I pulled facts that show they weren’t, and now you’re just desperately pivoting back again

                      “There was a 3.0% decrease in the number of homicide victims in Australia, from 434 in 2013 to a five year low of 421 in 2014. ”

                      “In Australia during 2014:
                      The homicide victimisation rate decreased to a five year low of 1.8 victims per 100,000 persons”


                      “Since 2001–02, there has been a downward trend in the homicide rate, decreasing from 1.8 per 100,000 to 1.1 in the 2010–11 and 2011–12 financial years.”


                      You have given ZERO citations to back up your arguments. It’s over. Bye!

                      • ohdotell

                        Its funny that you completely ignore what I say. I never said that the homicide rate did not decrease. What I said was, it was not due to the 1996 Gun Buy back and restrictions. If it were, there would have been an immediate decrease. But you have to use 2014 stats to finally see a decrease. How can that be the gun?

                        Look at the same references you used, and look at 1997, 98, 99 2000, etc. the homicide rate INCREASED. Suicides did not change.

                        You have your blinders on, either because you want to believe the mainstream rhetoric, or you are simply gun-phobic and want them gone.

          • Kenny Servello Jr.

            Better read up. There have been more armed robberies and assaults since the gun ban.

      • ohdotell

        Hey Dippy! We are talking over all murders. There were more dead people after the ban than before. Also you state there hasn’t been one mass shooting. . . Well there was one in 2000, 2002, 2009 (there were 2), 2011 (there were 2) 2014(there were 3)

        Do some research, dude.

        • Let’sBeFriends

          Do you have a source on these shootings that absolutely do not exist?
          It’s incredibly common knowledge that there hasn’t been a mass shooting in Australia by definition since the Port Arthur massacre in 96, of which after was when the stricter gun laws were institutionalised, Dippy.

          • ohdotell

            You are right! My apologies, I was referring to mass murders, and not shootings. There were only 3 or 4 shootings since ’96 but do not fit the definition of “MASS SHOOTING”.

            This does not change the fact that murder continued an upward trend as well as suicides. The rate in Australia did not begin to decline until 2004, which, after 8 years cannot be attributed to a gun ban.
            I will eat crow for misrepresenting the homicide rates, though.

            • Let’sBeFriends

              As I just told someone else, this article cherry picks only the absolute number of homicides rather than the homicide rate. I don’t think it needs to be said that Australia is clearly a growing country, and that the population has raised in significance between 1993 and 2007. The logic used by this article would dictate that if the population grew, then the rate of homicides would too, no? But it didn’t, and in fact gradually lessened.
              There was a 47 per cent decrease in firearm related deaths over the period 1991 to 2001, and the sharpest part of that declining curve was between 96 and 98.
              Homicides rates dropped to a record low of 1.1 incidents per 100,000 people in 2011, and sat at 1.2 in 2012, meaning homicides had declined by about 20 percent in the past two decades.

              • Christopher Glen Clouse

                Actually the study specifically quoted the murder rate, not the actual number of murders. So if the population goes up that trend or “rate” will stay the same according to the numbers. His point is that gun control doesn’t have an effect on the overall number of murders per capita. If 2 people are murdered with guns an 2 more by other means, and they do a ban, the next year will be 1 murder by gun and 3 by other means, not accounting for the spike after the ban. But there’s another statistic that isn’t taken into account here. The rise in violent crime after the gun ban. So in Australia we know the gun ban overall did not reduce the number of murders in Australia but what happened to the violent crime rate? I don’t have that information but I would expect it to be higher. I’m sure you can look up that info on your own. I know I’m going to.

                • Let’sBeFriends

                  No, what the author cites in his argument is the total number of murders, not the rate. The total of homicides has “stayed the same” completely omits the factor of a growing population. The fact that the homicide rate in general has clearly dropped, along with homicides committed with firearms, is right there in my post.

                  • disqus_9Kum238D8y

                    No, the author clearly cites rates. I’m not sorry you’re too stupid to see that.

                    • Let’sBeFriends

                      I quote from the article: “Murders have basically run flat”
                      The author is citing from the first chart in the link, ‘Homicide victims from 1993 to 2007 (number per year)’. Sorry you’re too stupid to see that.

                      • disqus_9Kum238D8y

                        Hm, my story doesn’t have any charts.
                        What is does have is: “homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million” and “Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945.” and from the link you cite “the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and
                        1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.”
                        In the context of the article, “Murders have basically run flat” would appear to be in reference to the rate since ALL OTHER REFERENCES in the article are to rates.

                      • Let’sBeFriends

                        I’m not sure how many more ways I can say it: maybe the author intended to source murder rates, but that is not the statistic he’s pulling up here.
                        There’s an embedded hypertext link in the relevant portion of the article:


                      • Kenny Servello Jr.

                        Run flat doesn’t mean drop.

                      • Let’sBeFriends

                        Completely missing the point.

                  • Kenny Servello Jr.

                    Not dropped

                • 5MMs

                  I haven’t seen that data, but I have seen UK data. The burglary rate went up and what is scary is that the rate went up substantially for burglary with the homeowner being in the house at the time of the crime. In fact, the perpetrators often targeted homes when the owners were there since they knew there would not be a gun to worry about and the wallets/ purses of the owners would also be in the house making for a better haul for their efforts. We are actually seeing a similar phenomena in big cities where the police have been demonized. The criminals do not fear being caught because of less patrolling in some U.S. cities the same way criminals in UK do not fear being shot by the now unarmed homeowners. Or, if the homeowner does have a weapon, it is to be locked up on it’s own with ammo locked somewhere else. Makes it hard to act swiftly in self defense.

                  • James

                    When you say you have seen the data you probably should have specified it was data you made up yourself. The UK burglary rate peaked in 1993 and has been trending down ever since – the most significant decrease happening immediately after the gun ban from 1998 to 2000. So it is neither scary nor even vaguely true that the “rate went up substantially for burglary”

                    • 5MMs

                      Burglary rates per 100k in England and Wales ,where about 90% of UK citizens live ,are still a lot higher at about 950 per 100K compared to just under 700 per 100K in US even though US has far more guns. Also, about 60% of those burglaries in England and Wales occur when occupants are home. Less than 2% occur with occupants home in US. Reason is guns are a deterrent in the US.

                      • James

                        5MM – first of all you told us burglary rates went up. I have demonstrated that is simply not true. Now you are trying to move the goalposts by creating a new argument regarding a comparison with US rates.
                        Also regarding the rate when someone is home – given you were dead wrong about the first stat you quoted (although do not seem to want to admit it) you will forgive us for guessing you made this one up as well. If you have a source for this data (and I could not find one) then please provide it.

                      • 5MMs

                        From an article I read months ago. Correct about rates not going up. It was the rates compared to US were much higher even though there are fewer guns and more restrictive laws. Main point is the same. In UK criminals are far more likely to rob a home with occupants home than in US. It isn’t even close.

              • ohdotell

                Sorry bud, but who cares what the FIREARM related homicide rate was? (They bought back 80-90% of all firearms and the rate decreased only 47%, interesting, but anyway)
                The overall homicide rate continued to increase following the gun ban until 2003/4 when they finally saw a decrease.
                Interesting! a 20% decrease. You do know the US saw a near 50% decrease over roughly the same time period?
                Australia is not the example you want to use.

              • Kenny Servello Jr.

                That term is bs. A buy back ? How do you do a buy back when they never owned the firearm in the first place. .

              • “Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.”

                You are wrong.

                • Let’sBeFriends

                  That data you’re quoting only takes into account 1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007.
                  The latter half of my data which you seem to be saying is “wrong” is from 2011 and 2012, and is not wrong.
                  And either way, they say the same thing, so cheers for that.

            • Ryan Dingler

              What this says is that firearm homicides declined, but others rose in the wake of no guns, thus the same amount of dead people.

    • truthbtold0000

      In the U.S., only the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th. 9th, 10th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 19th, (you get the picture) amendments protect citizens from government. Why anyone would think the 2nd amendment refers to the natural right and responsibility of a person to protect their most valuable possession is beyond me.

    • bradbergstrom

      Your argument evaporates if you change the dependent variable to “mass shootings” (4 or more people shot per incident), of which the US is in a league of its own, suffering an average of more than one per day in 2015.

      • pyrodice

        Except they had to change the definition of “mass shooting” from what you’re thinking of, theater, club, school shootings… to an average chicago street drive-by.

      • Banksters_Rule_the_World

        How many of these “mass shootings” occurred in “Gun Free Zones”?

      • Michael Rice

        So, 10 people dead in 1 shooting is worse than 10 individuals killed in 10 separate shootings? That’s what your “logic” says.

        If we eliminate gang related shootings, you know criminals who won’t pay attention to gun laws, our rates plummet.

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    • yor mom

      Congress just needs to create a law that bans murder. Problem solved.

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    • locsphere

      I am just so sick of the left constantly beating the drum of gun control. They use it’s failures as examples of success. They use the dead to stand on after a tragedy to push these laws that have no basis to stand on without the tragedy. Its pretty disgusting. I am so disgusted with the democrats right now. I am disgusted with Obama always bringing it up. The guy literally has nothing else to define his presidency so he pushes this?

      Not voting democrat anymore. hopefully libertarians offer something more.

      • Melody Record

        I grew up in the South and I know how many kids were hurt with guns because their parents did a poor job of Parenting.
        And since then…because almost anyone can own a gun & shoot bullets , these individuals become as the Highest Judges in this country…as they hold in their hands a gun that allows them to get to decide who lives & who dies.
        If there were a strict discipline of using killing weapons enforced…(“pre-crime”.legislation)..this argument would disappear.
        I grew up in the deep South with people who did not think very well…were paranoid (“prejudiced”) and SCARED of all kinds of things….people & animals & ghosts and “things that go bump int he night ‘.
        They would literally SHOOT FIRST & ask questions later.
        (Yes – sometimes they shot one of their children or a neighbor !!)
        At the least – people must get a PERMIT to own a killing weapon – because just like a car – it is dangerous to OTHERS if you screw up. And having Gun Insurance would also be a great idea so if you DO HARM the one you harmed would be able to access CARE immediately.
        We The People understand this about cars hurting people – why not about GUNS hurting people… just
        because a document written MANY MANY YEARS AGO when there was no “law enforcement” and barely any courts said you had a RIGHT to own a gun & protect yourself.
        Living in areas where there is danger from predators it makes sense.
        But many people have accidentiy shot a family member or pet from that FEAR the removes “THINKING”.
        A Classic book /movie (DUNE) has a famous quote that describes this simply:
        The “Right” to use a KILLING MACHINE must be monitored so poor decision makers do not kill innocent people.
        That just makes sense.

        • JamesDDean

          If you feel so righteous in your crusade, get your state legislature to work to repeal the second amendment via a Constitutional amendment. The FBI statistics for 2014 for murders with firearms are 8,124 people. So 0.00271% of the population were murdered with a firearm in 2014. The number of traffic deaths in 2014 were 32,675. Wow, that’s four times greater than the firearm homicides of the same year. BTW, cars don’t hurt anyone. A car is a conveyance that takes you from point A to point B. A firearm is a tool that if used responsibly hurts no one.

          Honestly, most of the murders occur in the cities in the North, South, East, and West.

        • deaderpool

          you neglect to acknowledge that period of american history from the 1400’s till the early 20th century when the wild west saw nearly everyone armed? just a mistake or does that fact blow your entire “We The People understand this about cars hurting people – why not about GUNS hurting people… just because a document written MANY MANY YEARS AGO when there was no “law enforcement” and barely any courts said you had a RIGHT to own a gun & protect yourself.”
          argument out of the water?

        • deaderpool

          “If you think of yourselves as helpless and ineffectual, it is certain that you will create a despotic government to be your master. The wise despot, therefore, maintains among his subjects a popular sense that they are helpless and ineffectual.” Frank Herbert, The Dosadi Experiment

          Your fear controls you. Your government creates your fear.
          And…….You will advocate for gun control. Now fear your government!

    • Lawrence Little

      The homicides are trending down in Australia because very few citizens are in compliance with the gun restrictions. In that regard, the nation is on the verge of anarchy.

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    • Franko K.

      Insert socialists Hillary, Sanders, or Obama or any other rotten “progressive” for “Himmler” below – or for Hitler or Stalin or for any other despot who banned guns: “Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA – ordinary citizens don’t need guns, as their having guns doesn’t serve the State.” — Heinrich Himmler

      Many others as above by dictators and human slaughterers as compared to:

      “The 2nd amendment is mainly so we can rise up against tyranny. No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms .” Thomas Jefferson

      “What country can preserve (its) liberties if (its) rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.” Thomas Jefferson

      “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” Benjamin Franklin

      “When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” – – Thomas Jefferson

      “Even as it stands, the Home Guard could only exist in a country where men feel themselves free. The totalitarian states can do great things, but there is one thing they cannot do: they cannot give the factory-worker a rifle and tell him to take it home and keep it in his bedroom. THAT RIFLE HANGING ON THE WALL OF THE WORKING-CLASS FLAT OR LABOURER’S COTTAGE, IS THE SYMBOL OF DEMOCRACY. IT IS OUR JOB TO SEE THAT IT STAYS THERE.” — George Orwell.

      I HOPE AND PRAY WE NEVER GET TO THIS SCENARIO – “If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government – by exercising one’s Second Amendment rights.” Alexander Hamilton

      • Fiasco Linguini

        News Flash: the world is different today than in Jefferson’s day. The people of Syria rose up against tyranny, look how well that’s turning out.

        • David G. Lander

          Look how many people in Syria have the means to rise up effectively. Seeing as how Syria has been a dictatorship for decades you don’t think there might not have been a reason they disarmed their populace?

          • Fiasco Linguini

            There are plenty of small arms in Syria. The problem is that they are not effective against artillery and air strikes.

    • Dash

      Whether or not it decreases total homicide rates, gun control measures definitely lower mass shooting rates, because almost all of those are used with legally bought firearms

      • Coinspring

        Chicago much?

        • Kaylakaze

          Chicago weapons are legally purchased in neighboring states (usually Indiana)

          • Mike Soukup

            No they are not – most come from IL. And, MOST are not bought or sold legally. They are bought and sold on the streets – and are mostly stolen

          • Coinspring

            Sweet. How do you explain the USA’s hard drug problem? (Cocaine/Heroin/etc)

          • Allan Erickson

            How bad are the shootings in Indiana?

      • truthbtold0000

        You read the article, right? Making a machine gun doesn’t cost much and the instructions are all over the Internet.

        People intent on murdering a lot of people at once will find a way to do it. Look at the mass murders in China where the terrorists used knives.

    • Truth2Powers

      This article is a lot of opinion parading as fact. Quite disappointing, given the title.

      • truthbtold0000

        The article was spot on about the homicide rates. All of the info is published by the countries and readily available for independent investigation.

    • Lance

      I believe you ‘figures’ for Australia are wrong. If you check this and scroll down to the graphic titled “Homicides involving firearms as a percentage of total homicides, 1915-2003” you will see that the ‘higher than normal peak in 1999’ is simply a part of acceptable fluctuations. The trend is downward and has been since guns were banned. Using statistically acceptable fluctuations to support your point of view isn’t science it’s wishful thinking.

      • You need to use more recent data from the AIC. Be sure to scroll down and look at the three categories (Homicides, Robberies and Kidnappings), and the subcategory “Firearms” within each category. Note that “Homicides by Firearms” reached a low in 2005 (2 years after your data) and has nearly double since 2005.

        • Jamie Frada

          Of course homicide by firearms will go down in a place where they are banned, but if you look at the total number of homicides the numbers are not far off. You trade a death by firearm for a death by baseball bat or stabbing.

      • john

        Your also looking at homicides involving firearms. Duh those would be down considering a ban you dummy. We’re talking about all homicides rise after a ban. That’s fact, bc criminals will then fear no one.

        • Lance

          In the UK the police never used to wear sidearms. Then a few American gangs came into the country with guns and cops started to get killed. The cops were then armed. The local criminals were so upset with the Americans for introducing guns that they kicked the Americans out. The police went back to not wearing guns. However, during the Irish terrorist killings in England they went back to wearing and carrying guns and they still have them but the English criminals had learned a lesson – now they normally do not carry firearms when they for to ‘work’ because the police will shoot them but the English police are NOT taught to shoot to kill they are, instead, taught to shoot to bring down – legs and stomach mostly. Guns get you killed and criminals, if not confronted by armed police, normally do not go around armed. Gangs are a different issue – they go armed at all times but that because of gang on gang killings and not for use against civilians.

    • James Cummings

      Obvious We aren`t all that bloodthirsty, if that were true armies would be massing.

      • Allan Erickson

        They have always been massing.

    • Ryder

      Great article…

    • cbunix23

      Gun control legislative pushes happen when there are high publicity murder(s) using firearms. That doesn’t mean the cost, or benefit, of gun control should be measured by looking only at changes in murders. The change in rates of all violent crimes, e.g., home invasion, robbery, assaults, rape, and others, have not gone down in those other countries.

      When violent criminals know they are facing unarmed victims they don’t have to use a firearm; they can simply use physical force if they are strong enough, being younger and stronger their strength will probably win.

      • robertg222

        Simple. Look at the US. Number of gun in the country is up. Murder rate is down

        • coachj

          wow, nice chart. completely meaningless, but nice nonetheless.

        • I can do this, too.

          • Lisa Campbell Schaaf


          • yor mom

            That’s great (lol!) but if leftists were saying that consumption of mozzarella cheese would decrease the amount of Civil Engineering doctorates, than this would be relevant.
            Similarly, if leftists say increasing guns per capita will increase gun homicides (and they do), then the burden of evidence is on the leftists and you pointing out the correlation/causation fallacy is kind of bullshit.
            “Guns per capita doesn’t necessarily have anything to do gun homicides. Let’s reduce guns per capita to reduce gun homicides. Derpy derp derp durrrr.”

            Obviously it’s more complicated than just; more guns = more safety.

            • I don’t care who says what. Showing correlation does not prove causation. All the chart above shows is a correlation, it does nothing to prove the trends are related. You need more info than that to prove that more guns = more safety.

        • drklassen

          Guns per person is misleading. It’s not more people buying guns but the same people stockpiling more and more of them.

          • jfabritz

            I guess that implies that more guns in the *right* hands = lower homicide rate?

            • drklassen

              No, it implies nothing of the sort. It implies, absent any additional information, that there is no causal connection to the correlation.

        • DanD

          Now correlate it with the percentage of households that own a gun. I’ll wait. (Here’s a hint, fewer owners with more guns each is the trend).

          More to the point, an actual correlation would would have matched slopes. There were several significant shifts in gun legislation in the mid 90’s that reduced the homicide rate that had nothing to do with gun ownership.

          • David G. Lander

            Which shifts in gun legislation were these?

    • King Rocker

      Your UK stats are wrong, they are trending down clearly and no trend up

      Australia also shows trending down.

      Guess you’re out of luck, eh?

      • BD Barney

        No the author did address that. UK crime (including murders) didn’t start going down until after they hired an additional 20k cops to patrol the streets.

        • King Rocker

          Fair point, I’ve checked more sources. It’s still early to tell where it stabilizes, though. Long term it will definitely improve. If they stop this Middle East immigration bullshit, that is.

      • msmadness

        And watch has the US murder rate done over the last 20 years? It’s dropped 50%. Explain that with your “less guns, less murder” theory.

        • King Rocker

          You sound like “other things cause cancer, therefore smoking doesn’t” crowd. Get a brain.

          • msmadness

            Really? Exactly how do you go from more guns, less firearm homicides to smoking doesnt cause cancer? Would you like me to cite the studies proving that link? As opposed to your unsupported claim that more gun control equates to safer streets.

          • msmadness

            Get some facts.

          • Coinspring

            Spoons made me fat.

        • Steve Dowd

          More people in jail, more ‘hot-spot’ targeting of bad areas by police, more cameras… really, the argument that more guns control the rise in crime is silly.

          • msmadness

            Please… Not my facts. You can find them yourself. Along with other politically inconvenient facts like a murder rate three times higher for blacks than whites and the very low number of murders committed with “assault” weapons. Not my facts… Our government ‘s.

            • Steve Dowd

              This does not say anything against my point – want to read my post again?

              • msmadness

                Want to read mine again? Less guns does not mean less crime; more gun control does not mean less crime. Simple facts.

        • King Rocker

          Easy. US gun crime rate is so high, a 50% drop is still meaningless. Probably still higher than civilized countries by a factor of 100x. Explained.

    • patroy75

      The 2nd amendment has NOTHING to do with crime AT ALL. It is there ONLY for the protection of the PEOPLE from the GOVERNMENT. The crime argument means nothing.

      • drklassen

        No it isn’t. It is to protect the government and country from invasion and insurrection.

        • truthbtold0000

          Exactly. Only the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th. 9th, 10th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 19th, (you get the picture) amendments protect citizens from government. Why anyone would think the 2nd amendment refers to the natural right and responsibility of any person to protect their most valuable possession is beyond me.

          • drklassen

            Yes, the limit is that there shall be no standing army. All armed forces are to be citizen soldiers so the government can’t use them to oppress the people.

        • ggetaclue

          no, it isn’t. The Bill of Rights limits government powers. The 2nd provides that despite the need for organized militia, the right to keep and bear arms (by individuals) shall not be abridged. Patroy75 is correct.

          • drklassen

            When it was written, the phrase “bear arms” was used almost exclusively to mean “military service”. So that means, the 2nd, in modern English would read: because we want our defense to be made up of state militias (and not a federal standing army), the right of the people to serve as citizen soldiers (so we don’t have professional or mercenary soldiers) shall not be infringed.


            • ggetaclue

              I disagree with your reading of the second. I view the comma as separating independent clauses. Though we need and have a militia, the right to bear individual arms is separate.

              • drklassen

                Scalia’s silliness was that the first part was “prefatory” and “non-operational”, and yet, not other part of the Constitution was written that way. The right to bear arms is dependent upon the need for militias. Which makes sense when coupled with the fact that in every legal document of the era “bear arms” as a phrase meant “serve in a military”; it *never* meant “carry a weapon with you wherever you went”. That’s even more clear when you consider that MANY towns had laws that you couldn’t carry weapons in them, and some even required storage of personal weapons in a town armory.

                • ggetaclue

                  As I stated, I disagree with your reading. As this is just a matter of opinion, I acknowledge that I will not persuade you and you will not persuade me.

                  • drklassen

                    It’s not my reading. It’s actual English and usage from the day. This isn’t a clash of opinion. It’s what is correct and what is misinterpretation.

                    • ggetaclue

                      Forgive me, but law is interpreted and opinions based on said interpretation are rendered. The Constitution is a particularly fluid document, designed to serve the needs of this nation and its peoples “for all time.” Necessarily the “framework” created by the Founders has, from time to time, required judicial scrutiny and interpretation. English and usage from the days of the Founders do not serve us well in 2016. (The Congress has not “coined” money, either by itself or with the U.S. Treasury’s assistance since 1913 when the issuance of national currency was turned over to a private corporation, for instance.) This is why the Constitution was created as a “framework” of laws; not cast in cement. This is how law grows and change. I interpret the 2nd differently than you. Neither of us has a perma-lock and the interpretation of this and other Constitutional provisions will undergo interpretations by many different judges and courts.

                      • drklassen

                        Scalia, the darling of cons everywhere, was a believer in “originalism” and claimed that’s how he ruled on the constitution. That you have to interpret the words used as they were used at the time it was written. Except he completely threw that out for the Heller decision (and Citzens United…).

                        I agree with him to an extent: one has to understand the words *as they were used* at the time. But for the purpose of getting to the *spirit* of the meaning. That is the judicial interpretation part. So freedom of ‘the press’ should naturally extend to media beyond the simple printing press. But “bear arms” meant “serve in a military”; I see nothing there that extends in spirit to “carry an assault weapon wherever and whenever you want”. To call that ‘judicial interpretation’ is making a mockery of the system. It is creating something new from whole cloth. And lawmaking is the job of congress.

                      • ggetaclue

                        I don’t agree with “originalism” because that wasn’t the founders’ intentions and therefore, we still disagree as to interpretation. Enjoy!

        • David G. Lander

          WRONG! “The security of a free state” which is part of the verbiage of the 2A refers to a state independent of a central government. The second amendment was written to allow the PEOPLE of a free state to form militias (formed from the people) to protect themselves from possible tyranny of the central (read federal) government.

          • drklassen

            WRONG! The “free state” is the nation of *states*. The second was to allow the STATES of the nation to form militias of citizen soldiers to be called up to protect the nation from invasions. The central government is *duly* *elected* and *representative* of the people. Overthrowing *it* was most certainly not the idea. As proven by the Washington. Twice.

      • Allan Erickson

        It does if you are the target of a bad guy.

    • JustTheFactsMan

      The most unfathomable and purely moronic idea is taking registered guns. Don’t get me wrong, I will never surrender my right to have firearms but I am 100% FOR much, much, much stricter laws and restrictions, without question. The most obvious issue with taking registered guns is this: Q – Who has REGISTERED firearms? A- Citizens who are complying with gun control laws BY THE MERE FACT that they are registered in the first place! Q- What’s wrong with taking registered guns? A-Whose guns are not registered? THE PEOPLE WHO ILLEGALLY ACQUIRE THEM AND DON’T WANT TO COMPLY WITH THE GUN LAWS (i.e., criminals, just as a starting point but certainly not the beginning).

      • Robert Pollard

        Unfortunately, the government is not concerned with people’s lives and the guns that take them. They are only concerned about people having enough fire power to stop their criminal activities and getting rich in the process.
        Keep in mind that Hitler also disarmed all the citizens first by registration (now he knows where they are), then by going to the addresses and taking them.

        • Ron Newlin

          No, Hitler didn’t disarm the citizens. He actually relaxed the gun control measures of the Weimar Republic. Except for the Jews, obviously. Like most pro-gun arguments, this one is false.

      • patroy75


        • Splitterwide

          How is that dumb? Explain please

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    • FlDino

      Never mentioned are the higher numbers in other crimes once guns are take away. Once a criminal knows you don’t have a gun you’re easy pickings.

      • coachj

        Well, I don’t have a gun, but the guy that broke into my house had one. He’s currently paralyzed, because I hit him pretty damn hard with my baton right in his lower back. So, there is that.

        • Veronica

          Yes, but not everyone will be able to do that. The elderly, the handicapped, those who lack that kind of physical strength, etc.

    • jason

      Some people are just to stupid to interpret the facts. In Australia before 1996 our homicide rate was always between 1 to 2 people per 100,000. Since the gun buyback the rate has fallen from 2 to 1.1 which is almost half now stay with me. Only %20 of murders involved guns so even if there were no gun homicides it would only go from 2 to 1,6 so where did the other .5 drop come from. How did a guns buyback reduce the incidence of knife and other murders, Well it didn’t there are just fewer murders at this point in time. Rates go up and down and this is even more evident in our suicide rates which are exactly the same now, 12 per 100.000, as they were before the gun buy back despite a massive %50 drop in gun suicides. Almost %50 of all suicides in Australia are now hangings up from %25 before the buyback and have a similar lethality rate of %80 compared to guns at %85. The simple truth is that guns are not a reason or cause of homicide or suicide they are a method and controlling methods does nothing to affect reasons or causes.

    • Vince Edmonds

      Its real simple … the most important and relevant FACT not mentioned here in … i have guns .. they’re mine .. no you cant take them. If you try … you die. FACT. Welcome to the constitutional Republic of America

      • Robert Pollard

        Well said!
        “Through her quoted words, Hitlery and her many anti-gun accomplices have committed a federal felony. Title 18, USC, Sec. 241 clearly states that: ‘If two or more persons CONSPIRE to injure, OPPRESS, threaten or intimidate any the people of these United States (and its territories) by denying them their “secured” Constitutional rights’ (any of them), that that/those persons are guilty of felony punishable by from ten years to life in prison. If that felony results in the death or injury of someone, the death penalty is then on the table. Since the Heller decision finally defined that the Second Amendment IS a “fundamental” right, she and every other gun prohibitionist are obviously guilty of breaking this law. To further cement her guilt, Sec. 241 does NOT require that any of the CONSPIRITORS commit an overt act (passing a law) for this to be a crime. Conspiracy IS conspiracy! We can now add this to the many other felonies that this Marxist usurper has committed. For that matter, CT and every other state’s legislature that has enacted laws that “chill” OUR Second Amendment rights are guilty of this felony and also Title 18, USC, 242, which provides the same penalties for those that actually follow through with the conspiracy.”

        • Mike V99

          You are absolutely right. Now get the Loretta Lynch DOJ to enforce it. Therein lies the problem. Government will not enforce laws against itself.

    • Unjust System

      “Typically, there is a spike in murders immediately after a ban, but it is short lived.” tell THAT to Australia a YEAR after their ‘nationwide’ gun grab!!
      From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia
      Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under.
      It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

      The first year results are now in:
      Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,
      Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;
      Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

      In the state of Victoria, alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

      While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.

      Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in ‘successfully ridding Australian society of guns….’ You won’t see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.

      The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-biding citizens.

      Take note Americans, before it’s too late!
      Will you be one of the sheep to turn yours in?
      WHY? You will need it.

      • Steve Bright


      • Bluesman1950

        A complete 15 year-old lie from 2001!
        http://www . snopes . com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

        For the actual figures see this from the 28th April 2016:

        http://www . reuters . com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG

        Australia on Thursday marked the 20th anniversary of a mass shooting which led to strict gun controls that have in turn led to a huge decline in gun murders, undermining claims in the United States that such curbs are not the answer.

        The chances of being murdered by a gun in Australia plunged to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2014 from 0.54 per 100,000 people in 1996, a decline of 72 percent, a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed.

        In 1996, Australia had 311 murders, of which 98 were with guns. In 2014, with the population up from about 18 million to 23 million, Australia had 238 murders, of which 35 were with guns.

        It was the April 28, 1996, shooting deaths by a lone gunman of 35 people in and around a cafe at a historic former prison colony in Tasmania that prompted the government to buy back or confiscate a million firearms and make it harder to buy new ones.

        The country has had no mass shootings since.

    • Mark Davis

      There’s a problem of causality here – the article insists on looking at percentage points increasing and decreasing rather than actual deaths as a percentage of the population. The U.K. For example has less than 0.1 gun related violence per 100k people in 2013 as compared to over 3.5 per 100k in US. So that’s a 350% difference.

      The slight changes in UK percentage points described by the article can be attributed to one or two events. Whereas the huge difference between the two countries can be clearly attributed to a difference in gun culture. Before the ban in the UK there was not a gun culture that needed to be crushed. But mass shootings in the UK have dropped in frequency. Sadly mass shootings only represent a part of the problem in the US massive figure.

      As well as misrepresenting data, this article neglects to confront the bigger problem of the constitutional right to own a gun – the current legality is a dustbin of the text born of a misunderstanding about well regulated militia and the non existence of automatic weapons.

      Getting rid of the huge stockpile of guns in the US is the biggest problem facing gun control – the data PER 100k of the population speaks for itself:

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    • Analbumcover

      “You need rifles to overthrow a government.” Yeah, back in the 1700s. However today there are things like assault choppers, tanks, fighter jets and so forth. Nobody is going to overthrow a government with rifles. That would be like attacking a grizzly with a pea shooter.

      • Bob Nolan

        Iraq, Syria, Libya, Congo, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Bosnia,,, All countries in the last couple decades with government overthrown by groups of bad guys with rifles… The people being slaughtered in the middle east right now are good people denied weapons by the government by bad guys who got them anyway… All prime examples of why 2nd Amendment is necessary and good..

        • Analbumcover

          Actually, none of them did it with just rifles. But thanks for proving my point.

          • Bob Nolan

            None of the above groups started out with the heavy weapons mentioned above… They just attacked poorly trained troops with rifles and took their weapons and ammo and equipment (never fired, only dropped once). ISIS still has little/no tanks, no aircraft, etc. and for a couple years now they’ve held the better part of 3 countries… Balkan war was the same way. I agree they did it with more than rifles but not much and certainly not heavy weaponry. Pretty good pea shooting if you ask me…

      • Cloud Hobbit

        Tell that to the people in Afghanistan who held off the Russians with rifles and a few rocket launchers or Grenade launchers, I forget which. Well organized Guerilla units can do much more damage than you think.

      • Robin

        No, you can’t win a war without ground troops and ground troops use and are susceptible to rifles. All the other things you listed make the job easier but wars are won with rifles not bombs.

        • JustTheFactsMan

          Nothing personal, but you REALLY, REALLY need to read up on this subject man.

      • Chris

        Looks like you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Clearly you know nothing about humanity’s endless history of war.

        What a scrub xD

    • 4irplan3

      Rifles have never been banned in Russia… They’re the most common weapon owned by citizens in general, and are heavily used by hunters, geologists, etc. They weren’t specifically allowed under the new legislation because a) a rifle isn’t really a self-defence weapon, and b) they were never banned before.

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    • Done

      Libtards will be libtards…. a bunch of onesies wearing, basement dwelling, non productive members of society….

      • Harlee Jo

        Yet again an incorrect opinion of a liberal. I am college educated, I have been working since I was 17, I pay my taxes and I take care of myself and my famil and I fully support the 2nd Amendment, open and concealed carry. Not all liberals fit in one box.

        • Done

          One out of a thousand doesn’t make a trend, it makes an outlier….

          • Mitch

            Or you have a hilariously over inflated ego that makes you think you work so much harder than everyone else. You don’t buddy, get over yourself.

            • Done

              Cumb Dunt much? Sad little man…

    • GRAMPA

      The data from the United nations say that America stands at 111 place on the world list of deaths per thousand. so with all these guns around why are we so far down the list? America has nearly one gun for every citizen. We are still far below other nations that have little or no gun ownership. Why? One answer is that we are more civilized than is lauded by the media. We do have areas with strict gun laws like Detroit and Chicago and Pittsburgh. Who also have the highest crime and murder rate in the nation. Remove just these three and America would fall near the bottom of the murder deaths per thousand on the UN list. Most of the deaths that are from the police in other countries are not counted in their national data which would push us even farther down the list if we removed the deaths by police. Our murder rate is used for political reasons for government will never have complete power as long as we are armed.

    • oscar1939

      So in other words we need a massive brain washing program. With government deciding what is to be washed out.

    • Dew Free

      the facts are never going to spell out the truth.The reason is there has been restriction on gun carrying since 1976.this alone will screw up any fact being displayed.i do not care where you go ,you will not see that many if any guns in eye view.thus the deterrent factor of guns is not going to have the effect it should have in the first place.

      If you strap on guns on ever single person hip,then and only then will you see the deterrent factor come into play.the more guns seen in a given place ,the more deterrent there will be for ever just determining more guns will cause it is wrong.1 person with 100 guns in area of 200 people is not going to deter anything.however if you strap on guns on 50 people in that same area of 200 people ,you will see a significant drop in crime.There will be less crime in area where there are more visible guns,period.The powers that be will not allow this come into play,ever.There goal in all the so called gun control is not making it safer or making people feel safer.It plainly put is to make the public afraid.Afraid of them first and afraid of criminals second ,thus they can tax more and create more police jobs in a single community.Create more un constitutional laws and just do as they damn well please.The absolute fact is this:{,_Georgia} 85% less crime than national average.

      • Oldshooter

        In fact, there is a clear, and negative, correlation between the passage of “shall issue” concealed carry laws and violent crime. While such a correlation cannot technically be used to prove causation, it IS quite clear that violent crime rates decline significantly following the passage of such laws (and even continue to decline annually thereafter, for as long as it has been measured), in every place they have been passed. The effect is far too large to be accounted for merely by the numbers of citizens who actually obtain CCW licensure, let alone the (probably much lower) number who actually carry a gun regularly in public. To explain this fact, it has been hypothesized that the effect occurs because of the perception, by criminals, that their potential prey MAY be armed, and their resultant caution. While there may only be 1 or 2 percent of the public who are actually “packing,” there is no way for the criminal to determine WHICH 1 or 2 percent they are, or whether a potential target for their crime is among that small percentage. As an interesting sidelight, in FL, following the passage of their 1989 CCW law, violent crime declined, but even more interestingly, the TARGETS of such crime changed, to focus more on apparent tourists than native Floridians (presumably because it would be reasonable to assume that non-residents were less likely to be carrying). For example, people driving rental cars from airports were suddenly being targeted more. This resulted in the legislature passing a new law making it fairly easy for tourists to get a temporary license to carry concealed while visiting FL, and the hoped for result (ie, a drop in the targeting of tourists) occurred as predicted. This fact tends to support the hypothesis that criminals are knowingly avoiding potential targets that MAY be armed, whether or not they actually are. As an interesting social corollary, this also supports the belief that making it relatively easy for the general public to be armed has a deleterious impact on crime, especially violent crime, whether or not large numbers of citizens actually avail themselves of the opportunity. Hence, the mere passage of such CCW laws is a social good, in and of itself, with a measurable social benefit. At the same time, the obverse, that is, the higher violent crime rate in places where it is more difficult for ordinary citizens to carry a gun legally, suggests that the ABSENCE of such laws is a significant social detriment, posing an actual, measurable, danger to the general public. This idea is further bolstered by the (too often unpublicized) use of guns by ordinary citizens, to prevent or stop crimes in the public sphere. All in all, the evidence strongly suggests that not only are “shall issue” concealed carry laws beneficial to society as a whole (rather than detrimental, as the anti-gun fanatics would have us believe), but also there is a measure of support for the idea that, for most of us, carrying a gun in public is actually the “socially responsible” thing to do.

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    • Yee high! Let’s head on back to the wild and wooly west. Shoot ’em up. Shoot ’em and let the Lord sort ’em out.

      • Rich7553

        Yet another peer-reviewed, footnoted, and cited comment from the irrelevant left.

      • J Gary Giron

        Don’t get lost in logic…you’ll find you are a stranger there…

      • Andrew Maxwell Moody

        Amusing actually, wild west had lower violent crime than we have now and everyone had guns… people were more polite when everyone else was on equal footing.

      • Steven L Dunn

        you are uniformed. the wild and wooley west was much safer than Chicago at that time.

      • Zach Freeman

        It’s pronounced “Yee-Haw”.

      • Cloud Hobbit

        Nobody is saying that, they are saying that the right to keep and bear arms means just that, you can keep them and bear them and even shoot them if need be. Many times the mere fact that a criminal can see a firearm is enough to make him back off. The overwhelming majority of gun owners who own their firearms legally are the only ones ever effected by gun laws, because they are the only ones who follow them. They are also people who about 99.3% ofthe time never use their firearms in an unlawful manner.

    • bpuharic

      And yet there is a clear correlation between guns and violence

      • philosopher 299792458

        That only looks at number of guns per capita vs FIREARM homicide rate, NOT overall violence or even overall homicide rate. Any idiot can see when there are more guns around, more people will choose them to kill someone else because they make it much easier. It says nothing about overall homicide rate. OVERALL homicide rate is what is important, NOT firearm homicides. If you’re only paying attention to firearm homicides, you’re not rational and you just have some fetish for guns. Did you even read the follow up article?

        • Ogrrre

          And, even then philosopher, one should only be counting MURDER rates, not homicide rates. A justifiable homicide is still a homicide, even though it is not a murder.

          • philosopher 299792458

            You’re correct in theory. If it was possible to have a “God’s-eye view and knowledge of all events,” one should focus only on unjustifiable homicide. In practice however, homicide is used because it’s much more objective and unbiased. Determining homicide is mostly free of the views, beliefs, or opinions of others, whereas determining whether a homicide is justified or not is not free of those subjective influences.

            • Ogrrre

              That may be so, but murder is a violent crime, whereas defending yourself, your property, or another person from a felon, is not a crime. Included in “homicides” are police shootings of violent criminals. However, with very rare exceptions, those “homicides” are not violent crimes. Justifiable homicides, whether by cop or homeowner, should not be counted in a country’s murder rates.

              • philosopher 299792458

                And I agree. Every effort should be made to categorize the homicides as justified or unjustified. It’s just not always possible to do so in practice. Especially in an objective manner. For example, in one jurisdiction, using lethal force against a burglar would be justified, while in another it would be a crime. What is justified or not depends on the local laws, and they vary. However, it’s much more universal and objective when one tries to determine whether a death was a homicide or not.

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    • Emcee Dr B

      Nice way of being disingenuous. Gun crime in the UK has soared since the ban. Just using murder as the sole parameter doesn’t tell the whole story. Look at the Metropolitan Police’s own figures. Or go to many places in London to see the gun crime. Or Manchester, Birmingham or many other big cities.

    • Rocky

      On the other hand, if it didn’t affect the homicide rate, then it was a waste of time and money, right?

    • jim peacher

      you name murder as the common denominator in your statistical argument.It is total crime that has exploded since gun control in England and Australia.Just ask any citizen of Chelsea or brisbane.

    • Joe Lovell

      So….if the net effect is zero, there is no excuse for the left to be taking away civil rights.

    • Kaspar Nybo Andersen

      You realise that the 2003 murder spike in Britain is an artificial spike, because they changed their rules on counting crimes.
      You’re a liar and a deceiver.

      • ian m

        ‘the rules changed in 2003’

        this guy talks of a spike in murder up UNTIL 2003, starting from 1996. They spiked suddenly downward AFTER the changes, and as pointed out in this article, the addition of some 20k more police.

        Congratulations, you made yourself look like an utter fool.

        • Lucinda Larkin

          If anyone has made themself look a fool it’s the one who chose that ridiculous avatar

          • Wooxer Pt

            What’s your problem with guy fawkes masks? I’m pretty sure you’d feel offended if I said that your avatar is ridiculous. Keep the discussion on point, want to defend gun laws or the absense thereof, defend them, personal offenses won’t make anyone smarter.

        • Kaspar Nybo Andersen

          I’m not really sure you understood the BBC article. I think you might need to read it again. Like reeeeally read it. Also you realize that mask only works when your name isn’t next to it? Either be anonymous or stand by what you da by showing your face.

          • philosopher 299792458

            It appears YOU are the one who lacks understanding.

            • Kaspar Nybo Andersen

              Nice rebuttal. Good job.

              • philosopher 299792458

                I know you’re trying to be a smart a$$, but if you read your own article it talks about 2003 onward. The best you can do with your article is to exclude 2003 from the years mentioned before. The years mentioned were up to 2003, not after.

                • Kaspar Nybo Andersen

                  Actually the report looks at 2003 AND 2012. I don’t have to be a smart a** as long as you’re CLEARLY a jacka** 🙂
                  Guess what? Guns weren’t brought back in 2003. So yeeaah. What Dingle MacBerry talks about in the “article” is that crime went up when guns where banned. He choose the remove the parts that disproved this (ie. the stuff AFTER 2003) and misrepresent the data he was left with.
                  Anything else I need to explain to you?

                  • philosopher 299792458

                    What happened after 2003 can not possibly disprove the fact that crime went up after guns were banned in ’96 lol. You obviously still don’t understand. The point was the ban of guns was largely irrelevant. Crime went up for a while, then fell down years later. Gun laws were not responsible, other factors were. The best criminological and sociological studies demonstrate gun laws have little to no effect on crime rate. It’s always other factors that cause crime to rise or fall. Anything else you need explained?

                    PS: It’s generally not advisable to be a smart a$$ about a topic you have little working knowledge of.

    • BSORaiderErie

      Right to bear arms is a Constitutional Right in the USA.
      If the ObamaTheTurd Administration were really serious about gun violence then they wouldn’t be releasing Straw Purchasers with a slap on the wrist.
      God Bless the USA and Springfield Armory!

      • The last president to forcibly remove guns was George W. Bush during the crisis after hurricanes Katrina and Rita. All guns to include those registered were taken from their owners even if they were to protect a home or business from thieves and looters. Those taking weapons included the Nat. Guard, Reserves, and private security forces. Last time I looked GW was a Republican.

        • BSORaiderErie

          I know people from New Orleans and none of them had their guns confiscated.
          God Bless the USA and Springfield Armory!

          • Oldshooter

            It depended on where you lived. If you lived in an area like the 9th Ward, or immediately adjacent residential areas, Mayor Nagin’s orders were to confiscate all your guns, and those orders were generally followed by everyone who was in the business of law enforcement at the time. While the orders went to the NOPD specifically, they were being assisted by various other agencies, and some private contractors (like the Blackwater folks). So, guys from various other agencies (often against their own beliefs about what was right) were involved in the confiscations (unless, as happened in some cases, they personally refused to participate). There are still more than a thousand confiscated guns either in storage, (and in terrible shape now) or just missing, in the aftermath of this illegal confiscation. The courts have formally held that the confiscation was illegal, and both LA and several other states have passed laws specifically prohibiting such confiscations in the case of future large scale disasters.

        • Switzerland

          Thats BS. My brother was there as a National Guard unit and the only people they they took guns from were cops who were causing trouble.
          It was the NOPD that took guns, fool.
          You know zero.

        • joe nobody

          It was New Orleans police and Some Louisiana National Guard members, that did the gun confiscations. Other out of State Guard Units actually denied NOPD requests to disarm people.. hence why they ran to the LNG to do it.

    • RRN

      This is quite possibly one of the worst “neutral” articles I’ve ever read. You know that “conservatives” have a problem with math and particularly facts but when you see them insert “statistics in something for basis it actually looks pitiful. This isn’t close to being accurate, just say you don’t believe in gin control and leave it at that. Please stay away from numbers, especially when math is concerned. It’s pitiful and you don’t help your cause.

      • really.really!really?

        And Libs don’t have a problem with math? Pot meet Kettle…

      • Shaun W. McDonald

        Hate to say it, but you don’t understand nothing yourself. It’s true that over 90% of shootings occur where there is either 1) no one else around other than the targets or 2) a NO GUNS sign outside. The no guns sign is like an All you can eat buffet to a fat man. Would you rather have to fight for what you want or just easily get it?

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    • Liberty & Justice For All

      “Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates.” Period.
      Liberals hate facts. Next issue please!

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    • SeaNote

      Americans prefer the use of mortars to guns because of the collateral damage that enhances the high from blowing humans to bits, but the constitution says guns and Americans want to abide by the law and do the right thing.

      • Joe Lovell

        Split the difference – us a howitzer.

    • Oldshooter

      you might want to check out John Lott’s data (he makes the raw data available to any researchers) regarding the decrease in violent crime as the availability of guns increases. This has nothing to do with the trumped up “gun murder” rate, but with violent crime generally (murder, rape, assault, etc., combined). In EVERY state that has made CCW available to the citizens, or has made it MORE available than previously, there has been a significant, and continuous (for as long as we have data), decrease in violent crime immediately after passage of such legislation.

      • Phillip Derengowski Jr.

        lol. lott really. he has been so widely discreditted that your use of him as your evidence just speaks to you don’t know what your talking about.

        • Cyber Liberty

          Please provide a link to a source that discredits Lott. Make sure there is supporting data at the link. Only then can you refute him. “Discredited” might be spelled correctly there (bonus!).

        • Cloud Hobbit

          Sorry but rumors of him being discredited are completely false. Ask Gay Kleck if he thinks Lott has been discredited. He used Lott’s data and got the same results. Only one peer reviewed study ever found that more guns equals more crime.

          In a 2011 article for ALER, Donohue claimed the NRC panel results published from the hybrid model “could not be replicated on its data set”.[75]
          Lott replicated the NRC’s results using the NRC’s copy of the Ayres
          & Donohue model and data set, pointing out that the model used for
          the ALER article was different and introduced a truncation bias
          Check Wikipedia for John Lott and see if they think he’s been discredited.

          The anti-gun folks would love to discredit him, but they can’t and he has let anybody who wants to have access to his data, so far about 120 have taken him up on it. Guess what, they get the same results.

      • Shaun W. McDonald

        I do say the reason no one actually can stop someone with a gun is because they are refrained from having on in the area. Did you know, little trivia, the only machine gun related death WITH A LEGALLY OBTAINED GUN was done by a cop over some cocaine? Yeah he was into that stuff.

    • Nikola Tasev

      “Poverty has a greater correlation to violent crime than access to firearms. Education and poverty are directly linked.”
      So the US is the poorest, least educated country in the First World? Sounds legit.

      • really.really!really?

        It didn’t say that.

        • Nikola Tasev

          No, it said it isn’t access to firearms that causes violent crime. It said low education and poverty caused it. Unless I misunderstood the article and they meant high education and high poverty causes violent crime.
          In any case, given the highest rate of violent crime and especially high violent death rate in the US, based on the arguments in the article, my comment was the only logical conclusion. Please correct me if I missed something.

      • philosopher 299792458

        No, but the US DOES have one of the largest disparities in the world between the “haves” and the “have nots.” The US has some of the richest people in the world, as well as some of the poorest. Same with education. The US also has a culture of violence not often seen in other industrialized countries.

        • Cloud Hobbit

          I don’t think anybody in the U>s> can compare on poverty to people in the third world. Everybody in the US no matter how poor seems to have a TV and a cel phone.

          • JupiterAscendant

            Not just any cellphone, but smartphone. I see much more poor people who shouldn’t be able to have an expensive iPhone and yet, they do. America is great. The reason why other countries in the “first world” category have such small gaps between the have and the havenots is based upon the fact that they both have so little to begin with since everyone is overly taxed to death.

      • Shaun W. McDonald

        Cuba has a 99% literacy rate and is third world. So yep.

        • joe nobody

          Cuba is 99% poor, with the rich 1% socialists running it.

    • Logan Waltz

      The article seems to want to appear neutral by saying that more or less guns don’t affect murders and anti-gun only pays attention to “gun” murder/crime as opposed to all murder/crime.

      To be fair, I am assuming the contents of the article is to point out that gun control does not affect murder rates and only to make that one point. It never pulls up violent crime, burglary, b/e, etc. which are all raised when there are fewer guns and lowered when there are more guns. Crimes and violence are affected drastically by firearms laws or lack thereof, so again, I’m assuming the article is simply to refute that gun control does anything.

    • Krissy1969

      2.5 million legal gun owners protected themselves last year. That is about 6,500 a day, which prevents a crime committed to them. 82% of those didn’t even have to fire a shot. Criminals are more in fear of an armed citizen, then they are in the law enforcement. Criminals do not follow the existing gun laws and will not follow any new ones, either. Therefore, any new gun laws and restrictions will only affect law abiding citizens, which will make them be vulnerable to a criminal act. For any politician to state, “There needs to be fewer guns.” Remember, there is only one way for there to be fewer guns…for them to be confiscated! Any form of confiscation, will open up Pandora’s Box to confiscate all guns!

      • john_willow

        There are no stats to back up what you say. There is just a mish mash of self-reporting by gun owners and claims made from non-peer-reviewed studies. . The U.S. tops the list of Western countries for gun deaths. The idea that guns prevent crime is a fantasy, as is the idea that the government just wants to take your toys away.

        • Krissy1969

          Sorry facts cannot be made up! Not to worry, you are not alone in La La Land.

          • john_willow

            You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you? Self-reporting is not evidence. There are no other stats to back these claims up. But there are plenty of stats on the harm gun owners have done to themselves and others. I doubt that you even know how to find the stats.

            • Krissy1969

              2.5 million legal gun owners, protecting themselves in a year, is a law enforcement stat!
              The MSM doesn’t report such, because is does not go along with their narrative.
              You know…there might be a reason why the amendments were numbered! Order of importance!

              • john_willow

                What part of the FBI uniform crime statistics on defense with guns being self-reported don’t you understand?

                • Krissy1969


                  I understand the FBI is a part of the USA’s corrupt government. And they are puppet’s on a string, dancing to their Slave Master’s tune.

                  • john_willow

                    Figures you’d have a paranoid, delusional response.

                • Logan Waltz

                  You might want to check the CDC’s 2013 study on firearms after the president passed an order to resume study that was banned in 2003.

                  Separately, 2014 FBI statistics show approx. 30,000 gun deaths. 2/3 of which were suicide, and of the remaining 10k, approx 6k were black on black crime likely drug or gang violence and the remaining 4,000 gun deaths were murder/manslaughter/ legally justified. So, realistically speaking, the US has less than 4,000 morally unjustified gun deaths every year that isn’t almost entirely the fault of the government.

                  • Oldshooter

                    FYI, no studies were prohibited by the congress. The law merely stipulated that the CDC could not engage in specifically anti-gun, politically oriented, studies. They were always free to do REAL research into the topic, but generally had no interest in that.

        • Fact Checker

          The US definitely does NOT top the list. Maybe check your facts.

          • Nikola Tasev

            Among the list of developed civilized countries it is. Or is being better than the likes of Jamaica, Colombia and Mexico good enough for you?

            • joe nobody

              When you subtract the liberal US cities, which has GANG PROBLEMS, the US is close to the top of the safest “developed countries’. 95% of US counties rarely, if ever, have murders. That is a FBI Statistical fact. The US Does not have a gun problem. We have a Liberal problem that has bankrupted those cities, and the minorities there, out of their jobs, and their very futures.

        • Oldshooter

          Utterly misleading, and not even true. Both the US homicide rate and the US “:gun death” rates are below a number of other countries-Last I saw Honduras topped the list. In any case, when you leave out suicides, the US homicide rate is right at (actually just below) the international median number. Further, if you delete the numbers for Chicago, Washington DC, Detroit, and Baltimore, the US is in the lowest 5 percent internationally. This tells you that we don’t have a “gun problem,” we have a “black gang problem,” since the vast majority of our murders (especially in those cities) are the result of gang and drug related violence. The solution isn’t restricting guns, it’s restricting gangs.

      • Dennis Wilson

        A study published in 2013 by the Violence Policy Center, using five years of nationwide statistics (2007-2011) compiled by the federal Bureau of Justice has found that defensive gun uses occur an average of 67,740 times per year.

        That’s 67,740 reasons a year to own a gun. Unfortunately, any chance of Obama mentioning the positive side of gun ownership is about as likely as finding Al Sharpton’s church.

        • Krissy1969

          Can’t always trust the FBI. They are puppets on a string, dancing for the Slave Master!

          • Oldshooter

            Excuse me, but the VPC is VEHEMENTLY anti-gun, and only published this study because it was well known that they had done it and people were asking for the results. VPC is by no means an unbiased source, and the fact that they actually had to publish a study that refutes their own ideology is telling.

          • Joe Lovell

            Even the CDC, in the anti-gun study Obama ordered, accepts the 2,000,000+ figure as valid. The low number the VPC used is the number of incidents reported to police. If a person hears someone trying to break in, racks the slide on a pistol or the action on a shotgun and hears someone running away, that is a successful Defensive Gun Use (DGU) and will likely not get reported to police.

            Even if that 67K number is correct, that is well over twice the number of total deaths by firearm each year, and about 8 times the number of murders by criminal use of firearm. Why would you want those 67K+ crimes to be successfully committed? Oh! That’s right! Leftists NEED to create victims!

        • Shaun W. McDonald

          Either way, that’s still better than none!

        • joe nobody

          VPC has admitted that they are lying on their statistics, and that they merely echo the Brady Campaign talking points. It is ran by a very antigun liberal, who has cooked his numbers for decades now. FBI has mentioned that Defensive Gun uses are significantly higher than that, anywhere from 800k to 2.2 million.

    • Raymond Covit

      disaming the sane and compliant , will not protect you from the insane or unjust.

    • “Neither side”? This article…or whatever it is, is totally one sided.

      • hawaii007

        Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. This is a proven fact.

        • Kristen Bromell

          Gun Control does have an impact of other types of crimes like robberies and home invasions. After a ban on civilian ownership of firearms there is less risk for would be robbers when they break into someone’s home.

          • William Snapp

            Kristen you need to talk to people who have suffered an armed invasion of their home after gun control. After a ban on civilian ownership of firearms there is less risk to armed robbers when armed robbers invade your home because they know you are unarmed and you cannot defend yourself and you will be easy pickins. Criminals do not obey laws on gun control even though everybody else does. Studies of prisoners admitting that unarmed people are their targets as opposed to armed citizens.

            • William Snapp

              oops Kristen….sorry…….I misread your above article. I now realize we are saying the same thing…..sorry again.

          • Charles_C

            Crime such as Robbery happen a lot in DC as a matter of fact it happens in cities that have strict gun control than it does in cities that have lax gun control. Example Kennesaw Georgia made it a city ordinance that you must have a firearm in your home if you were allowed by state law. Crime went down and had not had any murders for a record 25 years. They did have one a few years ago.

      • Mick Price

        Note the complete absence in that piece of ANY evidence that gun control reduced homicide in Japan. There is LITERALLY nothing, merely the statement that a) there are less gun related homicide in Japan than the USA and b) that Japan has stricter gun control. It doesn’t even say they have less homicide overall, so if you don’t care if you get killed by a gun or a knife the article says nothing about which country is better. Yes I know Japan’s homicide rate is lower, but your article doesn’t even say that. To conclude that gun control works on the basis of that article you have to assume a) there are no other differences between Japan and the USA and b) that only gun homicides count. Learn to logic.

      • Rory Anderson

        Your article only mentions gun related murders, as little as two,not all murders.

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    • Davehere

      What is the definition of “copout?” Human suffering, chopped off heads, squirting blood, torture, rape, mutilation, cannibalizing and all other forms of hideous sickness is now entertainment. People will scream like a pig under a gate about “guns” and never say one potent word about the cause of murder. We have desensitized people until they will pay to watch someone’s guts spilled onto the street.
      It sickens those of us who value human life as sacred, to hear those individuals claim this hideous display qualifies as free speech, or that it doesn’t affect them. You have merely to open your eyes and ears to pick up references to these horrid human degrading productions in association with murders every day. It has desensitized them, otherwise they would be able to see how this “entertainment” creates crime! Interfering with freedom, not promoting it. Determining that injury can interfere with freedom and pursuit of happiness is why you can’t scream fire in a theater. It’s not free speech. How have we allowed this virus to sicken society to the point that people will adamantly defend their ‘right’ to watch human suffering? Fiction or not, how did people come to enjoy this!?
      It’s easy and quite “safe” to jump on a bandwagon about guns. “Scream about Hollywood and the video games our kids and adults as well, play? Oh, for Gods sake no! That’s actually taking a solid stand!” Why aren’t folks trying to outlaw knives? That’s even safer!

      • Tabykatt

        On point!

      • Michael F

        There is about a 0 correlation between playing violent video games and committing violent crimes. There is a negative correlation between witnessing public executions and committing violent crimes. All they do is desensitize people to seeing them, not turn otherwise good people into criminals.

        • Davehere

          There are institutions that have proven you wrong. One of these belong to Col David Grossman, a former Phsyc professor at Westpoint, who was given the task of desensitizing Vietnam soldiers so they could look at someone and shoot them ( something the soldier in WW 2 by in large was not able to do, because they did not need to be able to). He has written books, articles and has been referenced by presidents for his work on “how” this stuff is affecting people. My question to you still remains, as a former emergency specialist and having seen more gore in reality than you, how can you enjoy watching a human being get tortured and brutally killed? Because YOU are desensitized. Why is this entertainment? Because YOU, my friend, are desensitised. I would expect you to say “no l’m not.”

          Let me tell you something. There were more guns per capita by far in the 50s than there are now. Look it up. My grandfather carried a shotgun to school in a buckboard in the early 1900s and so did his classmates. They had NO school shootings, by adults or otherwise. They carried those guns to protect themselves against dangers of all kinds, from OUTSIDE of the school. THEY WERE CHILDREN!! Not to examine what has changed is just pure dishonesty. You can not ignore this. Screaming gun control is at best, a copout. We have killings from automobiles everyday. Are we going to outlaw cars next? We allow the nation to accept a sickness, then we decide to try to stop folks from protecting themselves against it. Something we don’t do with any other desease.

          You can give me all of the “I think” that you choose. There are piles of institutions conducting experiments and research involving entire countries that are proving what I am saying. Little children shooting people because they think it is a game. Lists of movies with direct links to murder. I am tired of hearing “it doesn’t effect me.” Take folk’s favorite TV series away, their favorite sport, etc and you get disappointment. Tell them you want to take away their so called priveledge of watching spurting human blood while some soul dies, and they get enraged. Bad sign. Similar to an addiction.

          If it does no harm, why do you “enjoy” watching the simulation of human suffering? How did you get like that? Don’t dodge this question.

          Other folks who share my view should pipe up and stop being quiet. This is part of the problem.

          • Michael F

            Compare young children thinking real guns are just a game to teenagers that know it’s not is not intellectually honest. Children kill their friends or parents because they haven’t been taught about the dangers of guns, it has nothing to do with moral degradation, desensitization, or enjoyment.

            I do not enjoy seeing gore, suffering, blood, death, etc. The most popular games like Call of Duty or Battlefield have none of that in it, you might as well be playing laser tag – someone gets shot, they fall down, then they’re character just disappears. Halo has even less. They’re no more violent than the Loony Tunes or Tom and Jerry.

            Some games like Grand Theft Auto are worse, not because they have gore (they generally don’t), but because they’re more open, less of a competition. It’s not how skilled are you, it’s kill these hookers because it’s fun (which I don’t understand). There’s a reason it’s illegal to sell them to someone under 17 – if you don’t have a solid moral foundation by then, it’s not the video games’ fault.

            If we look at more “traditional” entertainment, rodeos and fighting have injuries that are for more graphic than anything in a video game. As does any movie directed by Quentin Tarantino. Looking at the real gore stuff, it’s really only found in the news and movies like Saw – which only appeals to a very small group of sadists (who would be sadists without it) and pre-teens that think seeing it makes them cool but actually hate it.

            Here’s the only “I think” that isn’t just common sense I’ll give you. We have a total moral failing and Godlessness in society today (really just an observation). It is so prevalent it practically permeates the ether. A complete elimination of all entertainment media would not fix it because it is in every neighborhood – it has even penetrated the Bible belt. Hoodlums weren’t playing video games, watching Tarantino, (and probably not the news either) when homicide was at it’s peak in ’89. This will be a slow and uphill fight, but statistically, we’re winning even if it doesn’t seem so on the 6 o’clock news.

            Here’s an actual source for you:

            • William Snapp

              Michael F.The difference is that Tom and Jerry and are not being sighted down the barrel of a gun and after being shot fall over with a little blood popping up on the screen. And this is a BIG difference.

              • Michael F

                Have you ever actually played these games? Tom and Jerry is more violent than them. There is nothing that feels real about them, even the so called “realistic” ones like Battlefield.

                And I recommend actually reading the article I linked to. There is no significant increase in violent tendencies amongst people that play “violent” video games.

              • Gary Scheuer

                No. Instead they shoot, stab, maim and crush each other with no real world ramifications whatsoever.
                So kids grow up thinking that shooting someone in the face just gives them powder burns.

            • Raymond Covit

              children spending more time on those games than being trained by hanging out with parents doing household chores and being together. Alienated , lonely heartless, compassionless automatons, is what this digital age is producing here.

            • Gary Scheuer

              Thank you. While I don’t think “Godlessness” has anything to do with it, the rest of your observation is spot on.

          • Mick Price

            “There are piles of institutions conducting experiments and research involving entire countries that are proving what I am saying.”
            And yet you don’t cite any. Look if what you said was even POSSIBLY true there would have been a massive upsurge in violence in the USA particularly and the Western world generally. There have not. Quoting that psychopath Grossman “These things make people murderers, I know because that’s what I did to our police and military” is beyond the pale.

    • Jordans03

      I love how this article is titled as “The facts that neither side wants to admit” yet is clearly geared towards Pro Gun activists.
      I also love how when reviewing murder rates of countries prior & after to gun bans, they omit numbers from a country that’s most similar to the US (Australia)
      I have a lot more to point out but I see that would be clearly pointless.

      • Chester

        Better go look again, as Australia most assuredly IS in there. What they told you about Australia is that the numbers did NOT change enough to be more than a blip of a pen between before and after “Gun Control,” actually firearms banning. Funny thing is, you talk to the people in the know about Australia’s guns, and they will tell you there are more long guns there now than before the ban, only none are registered, or even officially known to exist.

        • Mick Price

          “What they told you about Australia is that the numbers did NOT change enough to be more than a blip of a pen between before and after “Gun Control,” actually firearms banning.”
          Well no, they changed, but the change was statistically indistinguishable from the change that was previously happening. The trend was down before the ban of multi-shot guns, afterwards it was bigger, but not statistically significantly so. So it COULD have helped, but the help was indistinguishable from chance variations.

          • Chester

            Mick, I think you missed the whole point of what I said, that there are MORE of those nasty semi-automatics in Australia now than before the ban, and NONE of them are on the books.

            • Mick Price

              That may well be so, but the figures were as I said, no statistically significant difference from trend.

            • Gary Scheuer

              Read what you just wrote. Out loud. then think on the foolishness of your statement. What you said in effect is,” There are way more guns out there than before. We don’t know how many because no one is admitting to it. But we know they are out there. Because we just know.”

              • Chester

                In other words, Gary, if there is no OFFICIAL record of something, it doesn’t exist? Might tell that to a LOT of people who have been killed by unregistered firearms, or by explosive devices that never had a record to begin with. Just because something is not present officially does NOT mean it isn’t there.

                • Gary Scheuer

                  There is no OFFICIAL record of aliens, elves or unicorns. Therefore, by your logic, they must exist.

                  • Chester

                    Well, Gary, I guess you are saying that because there is no official record of a gun, other than the fact that it has been seen more than once, it can not exist. This is pretty much what is going on in Australia. Guns are coming in, but they are being bootlegged, rather than coming in through the OFFICIAL ports and being logged in or returned. As far as the aliens, elves, and unicorns, we have as much of an OFFICIAL record of their existence as we do of Christ, yet Billions of people will swear to His existence, and just as many will swear that the little people and their steeds can’t exist.

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    • bob

      What people don’t realize is that guns don’t kill people. People kill people with guns

      • Tony

        A bullet piercing the flesh of a person, fired from a gun, kills people.

        • William Snapp

          Tony….I believe someone has to pull the trigger Tony. Gun accidents do happen but most guns used in killing people are aimed by someone, the trigger is pulled by someone with intent by someone. Guns are not out walking around by themselves and are not loading them selves before they are being shot.

          • Tony

            Yes but those people get access to said guns via lax laws.

    • paul ivaldi

      you should not be allowed to write articles, you’re going to further confuse the already ignorant. please admit your mistake and rescind this. while your obvious conclusion of a cultural problem is correct your attempt at an intelligible argument is really a naive essay from somebody that thinks they’re smarter than they actually are. i’m sorry i made this so insulting. i really should try to write my own if i’m so willing to criticize others but this issue drives me crazy because there is too much misinformation.

    • Mike Breen

      “” In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.””
      Incorrect. The handgun ban was deigned to remove one type of gun from a very small number of licenced owners. It was entirely successful. As to increasing crime, no it did not. The removal of one type of gun from a very small number of people who never used those guns to prevent crime cannot have increased crime.

      • phillipqb

        Then what was the point?

        • Gary Scheuer

          Didn’t you read the article? It’s the Illuminati New World Order Freemason Muslim Government that wants to make slaves of us all.

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    • Dave

      All I got out of this was a challenge to see if I can build a shotgun with parts from Home Depot

      • nordicwinds1969

        Although, I caught that too…. They also pointed out that governments have the agenda of wanting the guns from the hands of the people so they could not overthrow the government. You will find this toward the end of the article but before our great guide on where to shop to build your own arms….

        “… a Russian citizen can carry a firearm. The prohibited items speak
        volumes about what a government’s motive behind disarming the population
        is. Russia has allowed
        “smoothbore long barrelled guns, pistols, revolvers, and other
        firearms, as well as Tasers, and devices equipped with teargas.” That’s
        almost everything, what is still banned? Rifles. So the Russian
        government has made it clear that the real objective is to remove rifles
        from civilian hands. The reasoning is pretty clear: you need rifles to
        overthrow a government.”

        Now, if people were trained well, they could do some real damage without having to use a rifle. or we could go to home Depot and figure out how to make our own.

        I think the biggest point is that the stats lie about what banning guns really do. It is not as effective as they say.

        Oh, and I am noting you saying it was a challenge…go to other stores too. Change it up and confuse them! LOL! No seriously. If you have them. Do not give them up!

      • Banjo

        Since you missed the point, I will change the “object”.
        “Everything you need to manufacture a bomb is available at Home Depot.
        The materials needed to manufacture a pressure cooker bomb costs”…I’m not quite sure, but not much.
        The point is, the problem is the culture and the lack of dignity for human life. I’m not a crazy “crusader for babies” but when many believe that it’s OK to kill an unborn because “they are not yet human”, and that idea permeates the nation along with first-person shooter games, and all sorts of other activities or movies involving not just killing, but in-your-face, unabashed, violent killing, couple that with a generation in this society used to getting what they want, crying they are offended and growing up undisciplined whiners along with designer drugs to treat this condition or that discomfort that just so happen to have side-effects that involve suicidal thoughts or actions and you have a recipe for disaster with or without guns!
        People have become desensitized to humans killing other humans…until it involves a real gun on real people. Then they “care” about human lives and want to take our guns…not gonna happen!

        • You are mixing guns, which are used to kill fully conscious beings against their will, who might also be the support for an entire family, with reproductive rights, a fetus that doesn’t have a clue he even exists, and doesn’t feel or thinks? WOW!!

          • Rojo

            Perfect. I understand. If you fall asleep, or get knocked unconscious for any length of time, and you don’t have dependents, you’re fair game for euthanasia. Good to know.

            • Useless comment.

              • EzA

                he makes a point: how do you KNOW the fetus/baby doesn’t feel?

                • Because prior to weeks 23-25, the connections between the brain and the spinal cord are not complete.

                  Without these connections, you’d feel the same thing a paraplegic feels, nothing.

                  “Within the subplate, cortical afferents establish prolonged synaptic contacts before entering the cortical plate. The subplate is a “waiting compartment,” required for mature connections in the cortex. The major afferent fibres (thalamocortical, basal forebrain, and corticocortical) can wait in the subplate for several weeks, before they penetrate and form synapses within the cortical plate from 23-25 weeks’ gestation.”


                  • Mack Gropeman

                    SCIENCE! lol. Good luck getting any of these mouthbreathers to read that… good on ya though.

                  • Davehere

                    Wow. You can predict that a particular life is not going to be a scientist, major leader etc! That’s better than God! Hey maybe we can make a gauge that we use in all pregnancies. “Wow! Gotta kick this one into the dumpster. Looks like it’s gonna be poor.”

                    • Davehere

                      Life is not a mechanical functioning machine. It is a process. We depend upon those who do not consider their own selfish desires when looking into the future. Imagine some ignorant individual stating, “If Benjamin Franklin had never been born someone else would have jumped in.” You don’t know who will change the course of history.

                    • Yeah, making the argument of “what if”, is a half empty/full glass, that same child could be the next Hitler or born with any disease.

                      The fact remains, it’s an unwanted pregnancy, and I surely wouldn’t want to be born that way.

                      • Davehere

                        Now there is a “useless comment.” The good that a human could bring, can be canceled by the bad they might bring. Again, perhaps we need a gauge we can use at birth. Just a dodge of my points, my friend.

                      • You made a comment regarding a positive outcome. If you factor in the amount of people who are actually genius against those that are below average in IQ, you will see that there are more low IQ people than high IQ by a factor of at least 10. So chances are, that this child would have been just another human being, consuming the planet, with a family that didn’t even want it.

                        I have no idea what your point is, but thinking that we should just have children, because a SMALL portion of them MIGHT be the savior of the universe, is naive to say the least.

                        The mother has the choice, period. It is NONE of your business, or anyone else’s business. You are pro life? Go help the 25,000 children that are starving PER DAY. Maybe one of them will turn out to be the next Einstein.

              • Davehere

                No it’s not

              • Banjo

                No, using your rational it’s absolutely correct! You just lack the moral conviction and mental honesty to admit it!

                If your “fully conscious being” criteria indicating that aborting(killing) an unborn baby is OK because it is not yet conscious is correct, then no one who, for example, gets into an accident and kills a pregnant woman and her unborn child should get charged for manslaughter for the unborn baby…right?

                The cognitive dissonance on the left is staggering!

                • Again making irrelevant comparisons. A mature human and an fetus without neural connections.

                  Your own pathetic book, the bible, says that life starts with the first breath, and didn’t your God kill millions of babies?

                  Give it up and stay away from women.

                  Now go defend starving children, of which 25,000 starve to death, each and every day, instead of wasting your time trying to save unwanted fetuses.

          • Banjo

            Wow indeed! Conscious or not, it does not matter! You are mixing a tool used by some humans to kill other humans with the justification that killing unborn humans is OK because they cannot express their pain and desire to live. You missed the point entirely…making abortion normal and no different than having a tooth pulled was expressed as just another way to desensitize society to taking another human life! BTW, how do you know the unborn child doesn’t feel or think?

            • Are you a republican? If so and you want government out of your business, then why are you in the way of women business?

              The unborn child before week 23-25, has NO connection between the nervous system and the brain. You know how paraplegics can’t feel pain? Yeah, like that, but more, because do you remember when you were 9 months old? Yeah, like that. So both things, they can’t think or feel.

              They would NEVER know they never existed. Nothing compared to a human, you know, like the mother, who has to go thru a pregnancy AGAINST her will.

              You are putting a fetus, who doesn’t think or feel, over one that does. WHY?

              Why do you even care? We send fully grown adults to war and you don’t even flinch.

    • kat This is the truth, this is why things where not adding up. The witnesses told us there was 3 men shooting, and so much more. The MSM and the Government is trying to get us to start a civil war. Learn the truth. Wake up before it’s too late. They will do more of these until they get our guns. We must get down to the truth, stop listening to the MSM and the fake video’s on social media. IT’s all to brainwash us.

      • William Snapp

        Yes Yes Yes Kat you are so right. Another word for what you may be saying is “we are all being destracted” by the media or world events and as Manual said to Obama “You cannot let a crisis go to waste”.

    • David Newcomb

      What a load of bollox. This article has totally missed the point, it has restricted it’s argument to murders (i.e. people who been killed unlawfully with a firearm) and given a very skewed view of gun crime. People who actually die as a result of murder (by gun) only represents a tiny fraction of all the people who are affected by gun crime.
      The article doesn’t mention those 50,000 people THIS YEAR in America who have had their lives ruined as a result of firearms. The numbers are frightening, just for this so far: 2,000 accidental shootings, 650 deaths/injuries of children under eleven and 2,500 teens.
      To the author: redo your statistics for the other countries and include firearm deaths and injuries not related to murder and you will probably see a huge spike over America and now over Russia!

      • Phil Farnum

        Along those lines how do you reconcile the number of people hurt or killed in automobile accidents, abortions at planned parenthood (350K yr), stabbings and beatings, drug complications and overdosing, and bad eating and personal habits. A significantly higher number than people hurt by firearms. It’s funny how some like to cherry pick statistics. Either way the author appears to have a valid point when you appear to have an emotional argument that doesn’t consider actual facts or take in the entire context of your non-murdered population (although including abortions in the non-murdered column is a stretch).

        • David Newcomb

          Some good points, but I would say that drug overdosing, poor eating, smoking, not wearing a seat belt, etc would be lumped into the suicide (super-) class of deaths as they are, to all intensive purposes, self inflicted. We use education to help fix that problem and it is doing everything it can. Although I will concede there is probably not much we can do about the stabbings because knives are even more prevalent than guns. The abortions argument (which I never brought up) is always going to be a bone of contention. It’s my opinion that you have to be born to be able to die, or maybe it’s best to give them an unrelated column in the table of deaths with still-borns caused naturally or by poor motherly choices (but that is a discussion for another day!).

          From what I understand (correct me if I’m wrong) not a single extra law has been passed to address all those gun related incidents.

          The article is saying there is no point tightening controls on guns because it won’t have any effect on murders. From some shaky “evidence” which I addressed in my post above.
          From what I understand anti-gun lobbyist want to help prevent deaths of people from guns and not murders as defined by this article. The NRA (of America) believe in guns for self-defence which is subtly different to what the author has stated. The premiss of the article is based on something that is a cherry picked set of statements which may be true, but like the ice-cream sales and shark attacks argument not really relevant to each other in the way the article portrays.

          The anti-gun lobbyist want to reduce deaths and injuries caused by guns. They probably feel that going for a ban is a good opening position as they can haggle it down to tighter controls like the rest of the world.

          • Mitch Berg

            “From what I understand (correct me if I’m wrong) not a single extra law has been passed to address all those gun related incidents.”

            OK. Here’s your correction.

            Quite a few new laws were passed 20 years ago, via cooperation between gun rights groups and both sides in Congress. One of them led to the national NICS database – whose effect on crime has been minimal, but which has made sure that stores are rarely the source of guns (except via straw buyers). Others included sentence enhancements for using guns in crimes. Where applied, these enhancements have had an affect on violent crime. However, many jurisdictions – and the Obama Administration – plead the upcharge away, or ignore it, for political reasons; they don’t want to give a win to a pro-2nd-Amendment policy

            • David Newcomb

              Thanks for the update. If the criminal’s are not buying their guns from stores where are they coming from? Is it still true that a person with a criminal record or mental health issues can go to a different state with different gun laws and buy a gun legally?

              • Mitch Berg

                “If the criminal’s are not buying their guns from stores where are they coming from? ”

                Stolen guns, or guns acquired from other criminals (without background checks!), and guns from straw buyers (people who buy guns legally, and give/sell them to criminals).

                “Is it still true that a person with a criminal record or mental health issues can go to a different state with different gun laws and buy a gun legally?”

                The NICS check is the same thing in every state. As a *general* rule, the same disqualifiers – felonies, domestic violence and violent crime misdemeanors – are reported consistently across all the states. Some mental health information varies from state to state; different states observe different levels of due process in reporting this information.

                • David Newcomb

                  Just one last question. Are there any laws relating to the storage or firearms at home: like weapons must be locked in a safe, ammo can’t be kept with weapons, bolts/firing actions must be locked up separately. Is this standard across the states?

                  • irememberallthelies

                    Nope and its not a good idea to do that. You may have 30 seconds to get your gun when someone breaks in. Its almost like not having one at that point. If you are smart you educate your kids on the matter. You dont leave them laying out etc but handy if you need it etc. All the things you mentioned I don’t do. I prefer to not leave a round chambered myself except on one. Chambering it takes a second to complete.

                  • William Snapp

                    Yes in some places there are laws about how guns are to be away from children. What happens most often (I believe) is that a child finds a gun shoots himself or someone and because the grieving mom or dad (who should be charged in the child’s death) are going through so much pain the judge does not send them to prison for 5 years (like he should) and slaps them on the wrist and children go on killing themselves. This might be an oversimplification.

              • William Snapp

                David…criminals buy guns in their neighborhoods in back allys around the corner and all is needed is for the criminal to put the word out they need a gun or they know who is the gun seller in their neighborhood. This is the real world David and by the way you can go into any large city and buy a gun anytime you want and it will be illegal because criminals don’t care about gun laws. It is really simple.

          • Phil Farnum

            The only issue with weapons regulations are that they are intended to make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to acquire weapons. When an elected official drafts legislation that will inhibit criminals from illegal weapons possession and subsequent crime I’ll be 100% behind it. When proposed legislation is intended to stop or limit normal citizens from the procurement of weapons I’ll stand 100% against it. Maybe we should add an immediate death penalty to anyone caught with an illegal weapon. Cop finds a person with an illegal weapon or use of a weapon in a crime and immediately puts a bullet to the brain of the offender, problem solved. If your intention is to stop crime, go after the criminal not the citizen.

            • David Newcomb

              That’s a very anti-government view. It sounds a bit like you are suggesting that people don’t turn into criminals they are criminals already. You are also suggesting that people don’t transition from normal citizen to criminal. This is clearly nonsense.
              In the UK if you are caught driving a car without insurance then your car is confiscated and crushed. This has greatly reduced uninsured drivers, so you can keep that idea 😉

              • Phil Farnum

                No one has developed the crystal ball that can tell if one is going to become a criminal in the future or be a hero. If we cannot determine how a weapon may be used or misused in the future how do we know if these efforts to limit weapons acquisition and ownership will have good or evil results? Pro-gun arguments indicate that if you limit the access to weapons by law abiding people, and criminals don’t really care what laws you place in effect, you would only be assisting the criminals by reducing the opportunity for self defense. Pro gun control arguments hope criminals will adhere to the law.

        • LostInUnderland

          Automobiles, regulated. Abortion, regulated. Drugs, regulated. Foods, regulated. Now, you can claim that all those regulations are bad, or that gun regulations are somehow less important than any of those other categories, but false equivalency is false. I have not heard anyone call for a ban on guns. What I have heard (and support) is common sense regulation.

          • Phil Farnum

            Automobiles regulated? One must learn to operate a vehicle prior to use on PUBLIC ROADS, there is no regulation on who can procure or own any vehicle, you can even drive without an operators license while not on PUBLIC ROADS. Abortion…there is no regulation stopping any women from killing their children for convenience, maybe when, but not the ability to kill. Where is Cocaine, Heroin, Crack, Meth regulated? Where is any crime regulated? Food may be regulated for health concerns so that it meets it’s intended purpose and doesn’t make people sick, not too sure anyone has to submit to a background check and wait 10 days before they can pick up their groceries.

      • Mitch Berg

        No bollox (sic) at all.

        BTW, the gun violent crime rate is down 50%, and the gun homicide rate 30%, in the past 20 years – as the number of civilian guns rose 56%.

        But tell you what, David: Let’s do indeed “redo your statistics for other countries”; the US has the 111th-highest murder rate overall. And 90% of those murders are committed by people with criminal records. Incidentally – the places with the lowest murder rates have the highest gun ownership rates.
        Let’s do indeed look at the real stats!

        Mr. King: An excellent piece – all the moreso considering what a disaster most of MintPress is.

        • David Newcomb

          You are comparing the US with the rest of the world, but like this article, you are not comparing like with like. I would expect the US to have a lower murder rate than a developing country but the fact is that America is about half way up the table right in the middle of all the developing countries, then there is quite a big gap then the rest of the developed world. So I wouldn’t say that was anything to be proud of. I also backed up my numbers and the reasons for the skew while discussing this with @jjmartinjr:disqus

          • Mitch Berg

            “Comparing like with like” is specious. Murder is murder. A dead Honduran is of the same worth as a dead white Westerner. The link you showed put the US at #121 for intentional homicide in the world.

            But you want to compare “like with like”, then you can’t stop with “developed”. You have to go with “large nations” (forget about Denmark and Belgium) “with large, culturally heterogenous societies”.

            And when you actually *do* compare “like with like”, you find that several large heterogenous first-world, developed countries come in much worse than the US, with its murder rate (per *your link*) of 3.8/100,000:

            Argentina: 5.5

            Brazil: 25.2
            Russia: 9.0

            South Africa: 31.0

            Or we could truly compare apples with apples: there are many large, culturally and socially homogenous areas in the United States with very, low crime rates (like, most of the country west of the Ohio River and east of the Sierra Madre), with murder rates at or below European levels (and generally super high gun ownership rates). America’s small states tend to mix low crime rates and high rates of gun ownership:


            In fact, if you leave out the 20-30 highest-crime cities – all inevitably run by administrations or in states hostile to civilian gun ownership – and the Deep South (where the scots-irish cultural tradition is very tolerant of violence, and was long before there was a US, much less widespread gun ownership), the US’ violent crime and murder rates are pretty competitive.

            And remember – 90% of all US gun murders are committed by people with criminal records.

            So that tells us what?

            It’s not the guns. It’s the culture.

            (And no, not “gun culture”; for one example, people with carry permits tend to offend at two orders of magnitude lower a rate than the general population:


          • Glenn Eric Johnson

            you can keep your submissive culture, i’ll keep my rebellious culture

      • Jj Martin Jr.

        Please source your information. Statistics with no source is bollox!! We can’t bother you with facts because your mind is already made up.

        • David Newcomb

          My source for the listed numbers is:
          Another skew in the results is the numbers relating to UK. The reason why banning the hand gun in the UK had no real effect on murders is that so few of those murders where committed with a gun (which was obtained illegally). in the UK gun murders make up 7% of all murders ( ). In America that number is 70% ( ) with most of those guns used bought legally ( ), or bought legally and illegally transported between states. The article states the UK numbers per million. If gun murders doubled or halved their
          it would have no significant impact on the murder numbers in the articles. The same is not true of Americas 70%. I would struggle to believe that if someone couldn’t get hold of a gun they would just pick up a knife – there is a different level of risk and heart that goes into stabbing someone to death.

          • PJSL

            The only reason gun violence, and violent crime in general, went down after the ban is because UK hired half again its police force. Also, crime using other weapons and bombings increased exponentially.

            CDC doesn’t separate legal police action, self defense, suicide and criminal action in its gun death statistics.

            Your other numbers are foolishly skewed.
            US has the highest firearms ownership of any nation in the world, yet it is lower than 50% in gun murders per capita at 3.55 per 100,000.
            The countries with the highest gun murders also have very strict gun laws.

            Ownership – Not Even in Top 100 Countries for Murder Rate
            The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to “Developed” Countries

            • Mike Breen

              “”The only reason gun violence, and violent crime in general, went down after the ban is because UK hired half again its police force. Also, crime using other weapons and bombings increased exponentially””
              Tell me, how many crimes were the banned guns preventing in in 1996?
              While the US gun nuts get themselves tied in knots trying to prove the UK 1997 firearms reform act made a huge difference to UK crime, the same bloody fools have made little to no effort to understand the situation prior to the ban and what the ban achieved.
              It banned ONE type of gun belonging to 1/960 of the population, that’s ZERO POINT ONE (0.1) percent of the population. Further, those guns owned by this tiny percentage were STRICTLY for use at the range. The very mention of using these guns for defence was enough to lose your licence.
              In other words, criminals never feared these banned weapons. Given these banned weapons never featured in crime in any way shape or form, how could the ban be responsible for any change in crime patterns?
              US gun nuts who have visions of the UK masses being deprived of their guns under the pillow, in the car, on the hip need to get real. That situation did not exist.

              • PJSL

                “Tell me, how many crimes were the banned guns preventing in in 1996? ”
                It’s impossible to prove a negative.
                What I can show is incidents of decreased crime with implementation of looser gun laws and CCWs

                Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise, study claims
                Gun Control: Myths and Realities

                • Mike Breen

                  “”It’s impossible to prove a negative.””
                  No, but it is possible to show that many Americans have complete faith in the claim that the 1997 firearms reform act increased crime because they have a completely incorrect belief that these guns were..
                  1: Widely owned.
                  2: Were being used for self defence and defence of property.
                  3: That is was a total ban on all guns.
                  The facts. The 1997 firearms reform act effected 1/960 or 0.1 of the population. These guns were NOT being used for the defence of person and property. The mere suggestion of doing so would have lost the owner his licence. To actually use one for such would be jail time. The truth of the matter is a tiny percentage of the people owned these guns and they were strictly for use at the range. They were not carried in the car, on the hip or kept under pillows.
                  In the unlikely event that an owner chose to break the law and keep a gun ready for use in the house, he has numerous other guns to choose from.
                  The 1997 firearms reform act had no effect on crime because they banned guns were not preventing any crime. It’s that simple.

                  • PJSL


                    Where to start!!!!
                    Your whole post is supposition, hyperbole and conjecture.

                    But I’ll deal with facts.
                    Banned guns were banned because they LOOKED and ONLY looked dangerous!
                    They were no more dangerous than others of the same caliber.
                    They all shoot the same round, at the same speed & only one round per trigger pull.

                    Claiming that banned guns weren’t used for self defense is irrelevant!
                    People keep extra blankets or flairs in their vehicles but almost never use them. That doesn’t make them superfluous.
                    The premise of the 2nd amendment is homeowner weapons being well maintained and available for immediate need in militias. The fact that we haven’t had need of militias since the civil war only emphasizes the quality and stability of our government; it doesn’t detract from the personal ownership of firearms.

                    (side note) Even at the time of the creation of the constitution there had been improvements making firearms more powerful, more accurate weapons. If the framers only wanted specific kinds of weapons maintained and available, they would have specified such.

                    Where firearms are carried isn’t relevant!
                    Open carry laws are active in most states. Most people don’t open carry because it’s a hassle, not because it’s illegal.
                    During hunting season it’s common to see firearms in the back windows of trucks – a LEGAL location to carry.

                    Banned guns didn’t prevent crime?
                    Banning guns didn’t prevent any crime!
                    Banning guns only makes people more vulnerable to crime.

                    The recent Chicago CCW law IMMEDIATELY reduced violent crime

                    There is unending evidence that civilian ownership of firearms stops hundreds of thousands of crimes every year.

                    Is it True Armed Civilians Have Never Stopped a Mass Shooting?
                    “handguns were used in an estimated 13,200 homicides in 1992 –less than 0.02% (two hundredths of 1%) of the handguns in America. Many of these reported homicides (1,500-2,800) were self-defense or justifiable and, therefore, not criminal. That fact alone renders the myth about the “only purpose” of handguns absurd, for more than 99% of all handguns are used for no criminal purpose.’
                    Guns and Self Defense
                    Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country
                    Harvard Publication On Gun Laws Resurfaces As Talks About Firearms Continue

                    • David Newcomb

                      Thanks @Mike Breen, that was the point I was trying to make. This discussion has become lost in the “God given rights” and the “Cold dead hands” crowd. This article states that crime was not reduced when hand guns were band from 3 countries. This is a total amount of “evidence” that the short article offers. All the side discussions, while interesting, are largely irrelevant to the main topic of the author’s argument.

                      Let’s say the the hand gun ban in UK halved or doubled (doesn’t matter which) the gun murder rate. it would effect the murder rate by less than 1 person per million people (numbers from the article above). Banning hand guns had no effect because gun murders had no effect on the murder rate before the ban. In the US this is not the case as Gun murders represent three quarters of all murders. It has been proved that killing someone with a knife is significantly less likely than killing someone with a gun. So if US banned guns that 3 quarter percentage of gun murders would not translate into three quarters knife murders.

                      I know how you all like your statistics so I’ll leave you with this one: More Americans have been shot by their own dogs in the last 5 years than UK policemen have been killed in terror attacks. We have to thank Donald Trump for inspiring the research:

                      @pleathers:disqus I think you are confused. Mike’s article it is dead right, sorry I meant DEAD RIGHT PERIOD. It would all be different if the 2nd amendment was written today, you are turning it into a religion but even the bible has been rewritten several times as the times and opinions have moved forwards.

                      • David Newcomb

                        “Banned guns were banned because they LOOKED and ONLY looked dangerous!”
                        Are you on crack? No government would go to that much trouble for aesthetics! I think you had better put the pipe down and pick up a dictionary to look up what a fact is!
                        Besides nothing in your response to Mike countered what he said. You effectively said “you are wrong and here is some unrelated material”. It appears that you’re trying to compare the total number of guns to the number of gun used as murder weapons and saying it is a very small percentage! Of course it is! An owner can have loads of guns, that’s why the rest of us have been trying to quote statistic that involve effected people. But even if you normalise your numbers, the UK still have proportionately less murder than US by a significant number and all the researchers say that this is because there is more access to guns in the US.
                        More access to guns leads to more deaths by gun irrespective of who is doing the killing.

                      • Poppov

                        Uh, you must be on crack, because that is exactly what dipshit gun control morons do in the U.S. Features such a pistol grips, flash suppressors, folding or telescoping stocks, forward pistol grip, length less than 30 in., a barrel shroud, a thumb hole stock.


                        The simple fact that none of the gun ban nuts want to acknowledge is that the excessive guns deaths in the U.S. are due to gang violence. And none of the proposed laws are going to affect those individuals, gang members, that already have access to resources to import illegal goods like drugs. All the laws will do is take away weapons from law abiding citizens.

                      • David Newcomb

                        There was nothing in that link that said they banned the guns because of the way they looked. I suspect they listed grips and stocks to stop all the “it can’t be an assault weapon because it has a …” queries. That class of guns is banned because they are “A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine” with “has such a high rate of fire and capacity for firepower that its function as a legitimate sports or recreational firearm is substantially outweighed by the danger that it can be used to kill and injure human beings” – that’s why they are banned!

                        Although your point about all the deaths being gang deaths is far more reasonable.

                      • Poppov

                        So they just added items to the list that don’t increase the lethality of the weapon for what purpose? Most anti-gun nuts want guns banned because they look scary. As a group, the lack of firearm knowledge demonstrated by them is astounding.


                      • Larry Mccarty

                        Sandy Hook was gang violence? Virginia Tech? the recent San Bernadino shootings? the Aurora theater or Columbine shootings? or the one that most affected me, haven taken place less than 3 miles from my home at the time. the 1985 McDonalds Massacre in the San Diego suburb of San Ysidro. You are talking about 1 on 1 crimes for the most part when you bring up gang violence. Most of us in favor of gun control are concerned with the MASS KILLINGS, which are most often a cause of the semi-automatics.

                      • Kyle

                        What about the Oklahoma City bombings? The Uni-Bomber? The Boston Marathon? All done without a fire arm.

                      • PJSL

                        Since banning guns has no effect, and firearms can be beneficial tools as well as recreational/sporting tools as well, why must you insist on taking guns from legal, responsible gun owners?
                        Until anyone can come up with a justifiable reason to change or revoke the 2nd amendment, your posit and Mike’s are useless. And all the angst doesn’t matter if not borne in facts and statistics (stupid analogies notwithstanding.)

              • Glenn Eric Johnson

                i’d rather live in a country where you are allowed to defend yourself, and one with no history of thousands of years of obeying tyrants, and praising the death of someone like guy fawkes.

          • Joe

            Suicides went down because of less guns. Murder rates remained about the same, before and after gun control. This happened in several countries around the world showing that gun control had little or no effect, but DID restrict individual liberties by the governments…

            • nordicwinds1969

              I hate to say that when I was younger (teen years) and I was suicidal…the gun was not my choice. I wanted to go to sleep peacefully and not wake up… So gun laws would have meant nothing to me… and we had a handgun unlocked and loaded in our home.

          • MrApple

            I counter your “stats” with a video.


      • Glenn Eric Johnson

        according to the FBI, guns are used 350,000 times a year to PREVENT Crime, so there is nothing that a person from a submissive culture can tell me about guns in MY COUNTRY, mind your own country’s politics.

      • MrApple

        And what of the people defended through the use of a firearm each year? Interesting that you would leave that out.

      • William Snapp

        A better idea for you David is why don’t you qualify and reference YOUR statistics because “and you will PROBABLY see a huge spike over America” is nothing but blowing smoke. Talk is cheap unless you provide ref’s. that can be checked.

    • Randy Cullinan

      Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told.” Actually gun laws give an advantage to those that lead a lawful and proper life by being able to protect themselves from losers that long ago gave up their chance to lawfully own a gun. And rightfully so. If the government continues to allow a certain segment of criminals to carry without paying a price, more and more lawful people will solve the problem through other methods.

    • Joe Howell

      “… you need rifles to overthrow a government.” Right. Good advice.

      • William Snapp

        Hey Joe! Do you know what an AK47 looks like? The rest of the world does and it has brought down many governments including running us out of Vietnam.

        • Joe Howell

          Do you know what a tank or drone looks like? Having a rifle in AMERICA (coz that’s what the article is about) for the purpose of overthrowing the government is stupid. My previous comment was not directed at the act of HAVING guns, but at the argument that the possibility of having to overthrow a tyrannical US government is a legitimate reason for less gun control.

    • Bob Randall

      What this guy said in so many words is guns don’t kill people poverty stricken and/or morally bankrupt people kill other people by any means available. Obozo and the dems know what Russia knows you need rifles to protect your self from a crooked Gov’t and that is why obozo and the UN wants your guns so they can rob you blind and kill you if you won’t go along.

    • Dan

      What we need is a tax on bullets. Make bullets cost $10,000 a piece and suddenly casual killing will become to expensive.
      Ok, I don’t know if that would actually work or if it would just create a new black market for bullets. But it sounds like a a neat way to curb gun violence without taking away the right to own a gun. Frankly, I am not sure if anything is going to do the trick completely. It’s one of those things where we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Maybe We need to bring back torture and expand the death penalty to include all murders without exception. And when I say torture I mean like cut off murders genitals and force feed it to them and then let them bleed to death while beating them with clubs as their punishment for murdering someone with a gun. I just don’t think there is an answer. No matter what idea is proposed someone’s going to come along and say that idea isn’t going to work and then explain why it won’t work.

      • hammr25

        If the murder rate is the same with or without guns why does it matter?

      • SaraB

        It’s super easy to make bullets, bombs, etc…

      • Shod Pell

        Dan I believe that you have hit upon something with the tax,
        the torture, the beatings. No doubt these are far better and easer than
        the things that were running through my mind. My idea would not have
        worked any way if they did we would not have this problem we have today.
        I was reminiscing about when I was young how every kid in the grade school I
        went to was taught reading, writing, arithmetic, and gun safety. How our
        parents would bust our backside for back talking, being disrespectful to
        others, swearing, lying, and many other infractions of the mores of the society
        at that time. I remember the hard lessons of learning how to deal with
        the disappointment of loosing a ball game, not being allowed to do what the
        older kid got to do, that if you spent all your allowance money you where not
        going to get any more until the following Saturday, maybe not even then if
        you didn’t do the chores that each kid in the house had to do. I
        remember, at a young age, my Father trying to explain what honor and integrity
        was and how important those quality’s were to have and to look for in the
        people you meet. I also remember going hunting with my dad and how I felt
        inside the first time I killed a living animal, how dad explained that is how I
        should feel about killing while I stood there rifle in hand looking at that
        spiked buck with tears staining my cheeks. I remember a lot of things
        about growing up but some how I just don’t remember how many people were killed
        in mass shootings or from cops that the criminals tried to shoot, stab,
        strangle etc., must not have been that many. I guess because of the way
        we were raised.

      • Jj Martin Jr.

        Hahahahaha. LMAO. Hey let’s tax drugs, axes, hammers, bows and arrows, rocks, spears, BB’s, pellets and anything else that can be weaponized. How do you think that will work out?

        • Dan

          Well, like I said but apparently need to reiterate for all the reading impaired twits, It’s just one of those things where we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. The idea wasn’t really meant to be taken seriously but rather was just another idea that as I predicted in my original post that wasn’t apparently read beyond the first sentence, no matter what ideas are proposed someone is going to come along and pick it apart without offering any other solution. I actually got the taxing bullets idea from a stand up comedy routine done several years ago where a comic made a joke about how there would be no random shootings if bullets cost a fortune. It was a joke then just like it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously now. Sheesh. The only part of it that could may be taken seriously was just the idea that at least it’s an idea that doesn’t involve taking away the right to own a gun. Beyond that, pure commentary.

      • Phil Farnum

        Good point. Because no one would ever think to evade the taxes, it didn’t work for moonshiners or currently cigarette smugglers…oh wait…..Maybe thee are successful smuggling operations. Maybe we should use capital punishment and streamlined adjudication for all felonies. Kill a few million criminals and the allure of crime loses its luster. What will up and coming rappers do?…..

        • Dan

          See response to Jj Martin Jr. (Below) as the response pertains to your sarcasm as well. I guess I should put a disclaimer that my suggestion and my original post was not to be taken so seriously and also put a disclaimer that reactionary twits who can’t or won’t read past the first or second sentence should take two chill pills and read all my post and subsequent responses to other reactionary twits.

        • William Snapp

          Once apon a time there was drug addiction in China because England forced china to open up to it with America’s help (America sold an inferior grade of opium). The way MAO solved this problem was to go into the opium dens and shoot every one and then went out into the local community asking if anyone wanted dope and then when the newbie dopers went inside they shot them in the dens again. This the way China’s dope addiction was stopped from taking the whole country down.

      • William Snapp

        Instead of cocain bullets will be the choice of smugglers.

    • Kyle Sager

      What a butterfinger analysis of Australia post-1996. The population of Australia grew 31% over 19 years. Gun homicides per 100,000 residents fell off substantially and a sharp turn occurred with Australia’s 1996 law.

      • Aussie Pub` Brawler

        the peer-reviewed studies of Saurdi-Lee (Univ of Melbourne) and McPhearden-Baker (British Journal of Criminology) clearly proved that Howard’s illegal and hoax-based gun grab had ZERO net effect on gun homicides…..a very narrow and disingenuous criteria any-way because every other sort of violent crime (particularly, armed, violent home invasions) has EXPLODED since abt 2002/2003;
        its exactly as Prfrssr John R Lott predicted…..less guns==more (violent) crime!

        • donitee

          > hoax

          TOP KEK

          You can link a conspiracy nut facebook page but can’t link the actual study that would back up you claim on violent crime. Funny

          It’s actually bullshit

          • Aussie Pub` Brawler

            uh…you know how to !Google!, right?
            forget abt gov(dot)au ‘s bodgie stats…
            peer-reviewed studies or STFU!

            • Aussie Pub` Brawler

              i shouldn’t even have to….


              • donitee

                >asks for peer reviewed studies
                >links to wikipedia

                Funny. And Wikipedia doesn’t even support your claim. 27% decrease in total homicides, 3.7-fold decrease in gun homicides. Nice try.

                If you don’t trust government statistics why don’t you link an actual study then? The only thing you’ve produced so far is a conspiracy facebook page and a wikipedia link.

                • Aussie Pub` Brawler

                  look it up, arse-hole!
                  the cites/rfrns are in the external links….
                  or…don’t you know how to use Wiki properly either, you fckn dead-shite, eh?

                  (here’s some-thing else for you to look up, you effin’ blonk….”Assistant Commissioner Ken Jones resigns from VicPol over inaccurate violent crime stats”… long you been on the inter-webs, you shill, eh?)

                • Aussie Pub` Brawler

                  read *the entire article*;
                  read the cites;
                  check the ext. rfrncs

                  you gun-grabbing fckn DEAD-shite!

      • Henry Simpson

        Gun deaths in Australia pre buyback were 1.8 per 100,000, Just after the ban it jumped, as expected, and then trended down to near 1.2 per 100,000 but in the last year it has shown a significant increase That takes into consideration any increase of population. as it is statistics per 100,000. Australia has a population of under 25 million so any gun deaths will affect the raw numbers greater than a population of 300 million. If you extrapolate the population in raw numbers Australia has a homicide rate about 1/3 of the US and that includes all causes.

    • George Plunkett III

      Mopst of his article can be summed up: Gun Control is only to protect the Regime !

      • Ernie

        That’s certainly true about the article, at least.

        Perhaps America has allowed its citizens to have firearms because it has the world’s largest and most technologically advanced military. A bunch of yahoos with assault rifles going up against a professional army with tanks with close air support enjoying total air superiority would be fun to watch from Canada. Too bad for the idiots who think they can magically protect their god-given freedoms with small arms though.

        • Justin

          You do understand that a fair portion, if not the majority of the military would support the coup if there was to be one right? Silly Canadians with their constant pretentious judgment.. You’re like the USA’s hat ! Just sit there and look pretty will ya !

          • SaraB

            Yes Justin, you’re exactly right. I said the same thing.

          • Rod

            While this is not to bash on our soldiers, I think it is foolish to believe that the military would not follow orders. Milgram’s experiment (and many others) show that people can be commanded to do terrible things by those in authority.

            • SaraB

              I truly believe, based on conversations with my enlisted family and friends, that this situation would be different.
              Same goes for the conversations I’ve had with the sheriff and local law enforcement.
              I’m aware of the experiments you’re referencing and agree with you in regards to good people doing bad things.
              Amazing how people will follow the leader.

              • Rod

                I have had the same conversations with the same things said to me. All I am saying is unfortunately there is a lot of evidence showing that people can be coerced to do things by those in authority that they would normally find morally reprehensible in their day to day life. If you are not familiar with the Milgram experiment it is quite fascinating and has been replicated repeatedly with similar results.

                I hope we never have to find out what would really happen.

            • Mitch Berg

              And as long as the American people have the means to resist (covertly, not in open set-piece battle), it’ll never be an issue. The military will not mix it up with a heavily-armed populace. The disarmed coasts, maybe; the rest of the country, no.

        • SaraB

          The US military (men and women) would never follow orders to disarm law abiding citizens. You really think these kids are going to take their grandpa’s guns?

          • Rod

            Milgram’s experiment (and many subsequent experiments) have shown that even the best people can be commanded to do terrible things, so don’t count on the military not following orders during a civil uprising.

        • Yeah, ‘cuz the Iraq insurgency was a total pushover, and everybody knows the Taliban was totally destroyed just in time for Christmas in 2001…

          • Ernie

            Let’s just say that the number of conflicts (or even individual battles) won in the past 100 years *without* total air supremacy is far outnumbered by those with it.

            The trouble with delusions like yours is what happens when they eventually have to come to terms with reality. If you want to believe in alien conspiracies and magic crystals, thats one thing. But this kind of thing only ends in a boatload of people getting killed very stupidly.

            • And yet, we still almost lost Iraq, and we are in the process of losing Afghanistan, all because of a bunch of yahoos with assault rifles. And let’s not forget about Vietnam, or how the French got kicked out of Algeria…

    • JoeCurious

      Not all gun violence is equal though. Here in the US we have gang problems in our inner cities which have the MOST strict gun control (see NYC, Chicago and DC). Would be nice to see the stats once gang related homicides were factored out.

    • thejumpingsheep

      I suggest you check your numbers again. You are off by a huge margin. Homicides by guns in Ausie dropped form around 0.8-2 (depending on how far you go back) to the current 0.11. Yes, that is not a typo, 0.11 per 100k compared to about 3.5 here in the USA and yes, they have more muslims than we do by %.

      • George Plunkett III

        Only 20% of the firearms were removed from the citizens there. Not complete confiscation which is what the Communist Left here would do !

        • W Wilson

          You said communist left, how very 1940’s of you.

          • irememberallthelies

            The communist party usa website is clearly a modern thing and they side with the democratic party too. Look it up.

      • gitoffame

        So… Do you realize you just re-stated the author’s point? GUN homicides went down, but HOMICIDES, in general, did not. Unless bullets follow you into the afterlife and kill you again, those people wind up just as dead, regardless of the thing with which they were killed.

      • Mitch Berg

        What Gitofame said. Same pattern happened in the UK after they banned most civilian guns: *gun* homicides dropped from low to a little lower – but non-gun murders rose, and violent crime in general (robbery, assault, rape, kidnapping) skyrocketed. “Hot Burglaries” – breakins when someone is home – rose to 50%; in the US, the rate is 12%.

        Why do you suppose that is?

    • Pingback: American Gun Laws | Nalates' Things & StuffNalates' Things & Stuff()

    • Scooter Tramp

      FACT : Criminals do NOT give a damn about gun laws. The only thing gun laws do is make law abiding citizens vulnerable. PERIOD.

      • Aussie Pub` Brawler

        the horrendous record of brutal murder inflicted on un-armed and defenceless citizens by psychopathic governments in the twentieth century (over 150million!) is the only argument you need to totally STOMP on gun control……for-ever!

        • Yes, because you can stop a government with a few rounds of ammunition and a couple of guns.

          • Aussie Pub` Brawler

            sure you can….if most people have guns;
            you use small arms to acquire bigger arms….either by raiding armories or interdicting supply columns….
            you following me?

            • No, because by the time you even think about doing that, it means that this country is done. You have a country with an arsenal large enough to actually destroy the entire planet. The idea that some psychopath will get in power and you’ll be able to stop him is laughable.

              If the USA wanted to kill you, you’d already be dead.

              • Aussie Pub` Brawler

                a bunch of camel-jockeys using 70-yr old rifles, 40-yr old “rocket launchers” and home-made bombs set off by oven timers, garage door openers and mobile ‘phones didn’t seem to do too bad of a job, eh?!?

                • If the USA wanted to destroy the world, it would be able to do it, no riffle or army on this planet could stop it. It would be the end, period.

                  The only reason you are alive, is because the super powers on this planet allow you to.

                  • Aussie Pub` Brawler

                    thirty-odd yrs ago, i would’v agreed with you;
                    now, how-ever, the US mil’ is top-heavy with homos, wimmin and v low IQ non-whites and sycophantic jews;
                    the higher IQ, European-type alpha males have been ‘weeded out’ except for the v small “niche units” like Special Forces;
                    unfortunately, the type of ‘human’ material that the US mil’ now seems to favour is pretty much useless in high-tech’ combat…..
                    that’s why wimmin pilots frequently crash $multi-million$ carrier-launched jet fighters into the drink…..
                    didn’t know abt that?
                    i’m not surprised!…..
                    the Pentagon is keeping a tight a lid on it as they can…..
                    apropos the abv…..
                    its also why the US suffered catastrophic fatalities in Iraq and the ‘Stan…..(tens of thousands)
                    US mil’ was bad enough before they went all politically correct….
                    the Krauts, for instance, v nearly handed them their arses on several different occasions back in W-2 despite being outnumbered 10-to-1 in man-power and 20-to-1 in màterial;
                    although, to be fair, that was, in large part, due to the v poor leader-ship quality of their senior NCOs and mid-level officer ranks;
                    now….they’re just a joke…..
                    the only ‘advantage’ the US has is its hi-tech surveillance…
                    drones/sats &c……
                    if you neutralise that, they’re buggered!
                    and….the Russians already have an electronic warfare system that can do it….. khibiny

                  • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                    Tell that to the Vietnamese…

                    • Tell that to the Japanese. Noticed that I said, “If the wanted to”. If they wanted to kill Vietnam, they’d boom it and be done with it. Now we have drones, and soon we’ll have robots, and more and more and more weapons that some silly riffle would never be able to stop.

                      Our founding fathers, had no idea about any of this when they wrote the amendment.

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        Don’t get me laugh. Guerrilla warfare are the Achilles Heel for US military.

                      • Yeah, that’s why I said BOMB. If the US wanted to kill every women, men and child in the US, which is a horrific thought, they could do it in an instant.

                        The military can do ANYTHING they want.

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        You’re wrong. US military have a right to disobey unethical order. Seconds after that order were given, US military will invoke 25th Amendment.

                      • Then what do you need the guns for?

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        As a backup if things get south.

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal


                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        Ever heard about Guerrilla warfare? That was US Military Achilles Heel.

                      • Who says they would even bother with that? What is to stop the military to go into their nuclear bunkers, and drop nukes in every single city in the USA?

                        NOTHING. if they wanted to, they put a million people into these nuclear bunkers and YOU would have NOTHING to say, you’d be GONE.

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        And you assume those guerrillas stays at the cities, waiting to be slaughtered? One of the rule of guerrilla warfare was to disperse to the countryside. Avoid urban centers if possible, only use it to gather supplies and intelligence.

                        One more thing, when your nuclear force had to rely on 1970’s hardware and still using floppy disk that are bigger than CD case, you have a problem.

                      • Are you saying we don’t have the capability to completely destroy this planet?

                        Again, all they have to do is cut all food supplies, and the US population would be down to a few million in a couple of months. They don’t even have to deploy a single weapon.

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        Wrong. You are severely underestimating what human ingenuity can do. There are other source of food that unused. Human wont die left and right just when the food supplies are cut. There is the other way to get food.

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        You are severely underestimating human ingenuity to find food.

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        Humans don’t all lives in the cities. Put a million in the bunkers? Assuming they don’t all revolt, glassing the whole earth is the opposite that they should do. Where do you want to put them when you glassed all the places?

                      • Penghulu Manuk Manchal

                        Assuming the people in the bunker are not partisan in disguise…

          • Mitch Berg

            That rifle and few rounds of ammunition deter the goverment from *trying* in the first place.

            • So if you were robbing a bank, and you had 5 other guys with you with fully automatic weapons, you could rob the bank? Or would a bunch of cops and swat teams show up and destroy you?

              If the US government wanted you, you’d be dead, no matter how many weapons you had.

              • Mitch Berg

                That’s fascinating – and irrelevant.

                The fact that the people ARE armed is what makes the likelihood of a military coup so low.
                (And let’s try to be rational, here; if someone DID want to fight the government, they wouldn’t fight them on the battlefield. That’d be stupid. They wouldn’t shoot at the tank of the attack helicopter; they’d shoot at the truck that brought the fuel and ammo to the tank and chopper. They’d shoot at the warehouse worker who loaded the truck).

                But the whole tangent is an inane irrelevant fantasy.

                • Exactly, it is a fantasy, because guns for the sake of feeling safe against a government like the USA, in this day and age, is preposterous.

                  And no you wouldn’t have a chance to shoot at a fuel tank, they would boom or use chemical war fare.

                  If they wanted us dead, we would be dead.

                  • Mitch Berg

                    Oh, snap! I see what you did there! You turned and applied my answer to something I didn’t actually say!

                    Most of us stopped – or were urged to stop – that kind of “debate” “style” in junior high. But good on ya for keeping a little bit of your youth alive!

                    The military is the least of this nation’s problems.

        • irememberallthelies

          They will claim its a myth but say the Holocaust was real of course.

          • seven seven

            Americans have killed about 55 million of their own children for their greed, ambitions, lusts, and pride. Moreover
            your people have funded via UN contributions to WHO, UNICEF, International Plannedhood, etc about 180 million more global abortion murders, moreover, your people have trampled the world murdering and perverting the whole world. Americans are the most evil people to live anywhere on earth since the Aztecs. Via partial birth abortion, you use surgical high powered vacuums to evacuate your childrens braains from their heads. YOU ACTUALLY BEHEAD YOUR OWN CHILDREN FOR YOUR GREED!

            • irememberallthelies

              I’m sorry, I personally don’t perform abortions and don’t believe in them. Too many americans dont believe the rich at the top will do anything for profits. Many are waking up to this and it’s about time. Most americans are on a kill list and we don’t support anything you mentioned. Notice the communist tactics used currently in washington.

      • bondjam2

        So why are people in every other developed country safer than they are in the USA?

        • Scooter Tramp

          Really? Explain this? Switzerland is Europe’s gun capital. It has more
          firepower per person than any other country in the world yet it is said to be one
          of the safest places on Earth. … …… The dubious distinction of having the most gun violence goes to
          Honduras, at 68.43 homicides by firearm per 100,000 people, even though
          it only has 6.2 firearms per 100 people. Other parts of South America
          and South Africa also rank highly, while the United States is somewhere
          near the mid-range.

    • W Wilson

      Start writing to your pro gun congress members to fund education and anti poverty measures.

      • David Pawson

        You mean implement a War on Poverty, or a Great Society plan? Start some kind of social welfare program to redistribute money to those who cannot or will not work? Sounds like you may have a unique idea there!

        • Kalsu

          Maybe if the government does what Keely Mullen suggested, take everything from the top 1% and redistribute it. Really won’t do much but in her words “it’s a start”

          • seedykay

            That isn’t right. If I work hard for my money I’m the only one who is entitled to it. We are NOT a communist or socialist country. If that’s what you want then go to Russia, China, North Korea, or North Vietnam. Don’t need the government in charge of my money. It’ll just cause the top 1% to move their money out of the US again. Then you end up with more poor people.

            • tawster

              Technically, we are a socialist democratic country. Your examples (Russia, China, North Korea and North Vietnam) are not examples of socialistic democractic countries. You are confusing things. This actually points out an issue in the USA today: Lack of education.

              But that is beside the point.

              Most of our welfare programs actually redistribute to the wealthy. Not to the poor. There are tons of ways to address wealth disparity in the USA. A safety net for the poor is merely one tool.

              • scottcrow

                No, technically we are a Constitutional Republic. Welfare redistributes to the wealthy? Oh good lord.. food stamps have gone up from 15 million recipients to almost 50 million just since the Chosen One was anointed as King.

                • Drake

                  Constitutional Republic LMFAO! That’s what we were founded as, now we are an Oligarchy. You go on and on about social welfare… What about double that amount going to corporations aka corporate welfare? I’m confused, you’re pissed about people getting help while we know some abuse it. All while corporations continue to pay min wage while their workers get welfare while we pay them corporate welfare on top…… The middle class is dying. Poverty and lack of education is on the norm a perpetual cycle.

                  • SaraB

                    Years ago the “middle class” families had one TV, a station wagon, maybe took a vacation and a house phone.
                    Now… The “middle class” people like me, all have numerous TV’s, nicer than we need vehicles, how many TV’s? Smart phones, lapbtops, credit card debt, etc..
                    Maybe the “middle class” is partly to blame?
                    35% of adults are fat, way too many smoke and diabetes is an epidemic.
                    We need to start looking at ourselves and doing our part to change.
                    My parents both worked 2 jobs to make ends meet. Read the papers, there’s tons of jobs. Maybe jobs that one might consider beneath them, but a job nevertheless.

                    • tawster

                      Those TVs, Smart Phones, Laptops — all add up to the cost of that *one TV* from years ago. So much cheaper now. As for the rest though, you are right. We are debt driven society. Debt used to be limited to homes, businesses, and … that was about it. That has changed dramatically.

                      I paid for every dime of my education for example. You can still do that relatively easily, but at some point it became “okay” and “easy” to acquire debt to pay for things.

                      So, there is some truth to that. But that doesn’t mean it is still okay for another party to exploit human weakness. Both need to be addressed.

                      • SaraB

                        I can assure u that 2 MacBooks, a family with 5 iphones, etc…. Is more costly than a TV was 20 -25 years ago. People comcomplaining, but have $450/month cell phone bills.
                        I agree with you… I’m considered middle class and have never received a dime towards higher education. Paid for my son’s college by staying home, going without “wants” and having him work full-time as a full-time student.
                        Not too many of us out there are willing to do this.

                      • LostInUnderland

                        With two degrees, I make around $40k/year. In state public college this year costs about $9k/semester… $18k/year. How do you think a person without a college degree can earn $18k/year above living expenses? And that 18k/year does not include housing.

                      • tawster

                        I did. Worked 3 different jobs most of the time. None of them flipping burgers. And if I was short, I skipped a semester or didn’t go full time and took 1 class or some such. I also did two years at a community college. Took longer, but zero debt.

                        Also, never ever had a car loan and didn’t have a credit card which helps tremendously.

                        It took a bit longer, but geez… I never had debt until a mortgage. Paid off one house in 7 years, got a nicer house. Will have that paid off in about 5 to 7 more. Well on my way with retirement investing now, etc.

                        It’s a mode of living that a lot of folks don’t even think is a possibility. Granted, I had no kids or other complicating obligations, which helps, but even if in harder circumstances, *most* people can do this if they set their minds to it.

                    • irememberallthelies

                      My CAR Is A 99 civic, I Have 1 TV And 0 debt. I also have money in the bank. Screw the debt/consume model.

                      • SaraB


                • SaraB


                • tawster

                  “Constitutional Republic” describes how we are governed and says nothing about economic structures.

                  We are a lightly socialistic country and have been for many many years.

                  Chosen One: I don’t know what Jesus has to do with this, but yes, he would certainly be a fan of food stamps. 🙂

                  Seriously though. SNAP increased from 2009 on via legislature that was written before Obama entered office. It was a response to the economy downturn.

                • SaraB


              • SaraB

                Provide everyone the same education and give them the same amount of money. The same house, cars, health status etc…
                Everyone starts on a level playing field. Do you honestly think it would stay that way? No.
                Single “poor” moms get free daycare, free college, SNAPS, Medicaid, etc… We have safety nets. Why aren’t accountability and personal responsibility ever brought up?
                I know a lot of “poor” people faking disability to get SSDI, having kids on Medicaid, eating very well on SNAPS, staying quite warm with fuel assistance, going to school for free with grants, etc…

                • tawster

                  Read the comments on this board. We obviously don’t provide equitable education. No one is rallying for communism, silly. A very basic baseline though has proven to be hugely beneficial for many countries: Education, Healthcare, and economic safety net.

                  I know a lot of poor people. And they live crap lives. Our safety net is hardly one at all. Remove education and healthcare as barriers though and a tremendous quantity of people become less burdensome.

                  An aside: Also end the welfare programs for the wealthy. That’s would go a long way towards moving towards a more equitable world.

                  • SaraB

                    I’m a healthcare provider….trust me, poor people receive healthcare, free of charge!!!
                    They don’t even see the bills.

                  • irememberallthelies

                    Our govt took as a it over in the 70s and ruined education. We were warned by ex doe reps and heads who warned us this would dumb us down and it clearly has. Look at these rioting college kids using 0 critical thinking skills. They dont realize everything they are doing is communist strategy sadly that liberal professors have endorsed for a long time. Be conservative and go to college, I did. Its an indoctrination center that hated real thought and did most on “feelings” and salesperson I was taught you can sell anything to anybody no matter how bad a decision it may be.

                    • tawster

                      Education: Our system is not the greatest simply because voters, not The Government, simply do not allow it to be funded appropriately. Before public education, the US education system was in a miserable state. Vast swathes of the nation had ZERO education before the public education system. Don’t like the public education system? You don’t have to send your kids to it… send them to a private institution — there you go, just like the old days, except that now kids that had no chance to go to school… now can.

                      Communist strategy: Um, no. Across the board, our political system is highly resistant to communist influence. That being said, there are communists amongst us, and that is fine. It’s another voice in the room. We need folks with ideas from all corners.

                      College: Expands your mind. I went to three different schools. There were folks from all walks of life and zero “indoctrination”. I think you have some preconcieved notion going on there or simply were utterly shocked by open minded people. Conservationism relies on disallowing the introduction new ideas or conflicting thought… This is in direct conflict with the purpose of an educational system at any level. A high quality educational system will challenge anyone to question and be skeptical. I can see how a conservative would not respond well to that. Sorry, but welcome to the world of reason and skepticism. It’s not a “communist indoctrination plot”. Not even close. 😉

              • Mitch Berg

                In re any argument that starts with the word “Technically”:


                • tawster

                  Ha! Indeed. 🙂

          • David Pawson

            Welcome to the top 1%, Kalsu! We want whatever you have. EVERYTHING. Well, you will be the top 1% after the first three or four rounds, anyway. Kleptocracy is such fun.

          • Feedback71

            What an incredibly retarded idea. Our constitution guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.

        • W Wilson

          I mean what I said. The author says that violent crime and poverty are correlated and poverty is linked to education. According to him Clearly to stop gun violence we need to end poverty.

          • SaraB

            There will always be poor people. There will always be people behind the 8 ball.
            Not all people have the same ideas and standards.
            Many of the gunman in recent years mass shootings came from middle-class families… Not poor by any means. However, what did they have in common? Mental illness.
            We need to reopen the mental health facilities, which will in turn decrease prison population and crime.

          • Aussie Pub` Brawler

            The author says that violent crime and poverty are correlated

            $gazillions$ have been lavished on blacks in the US over several decades, yet, they still fill up the US gaol system to over-flowing;
            the problem is with the blacks them-selfs….its genetic!

            • Aussie Pub` Brawler
            • Feedback71

              Bullshit! It’s cultural. There is nothing inferior about genetics of black people.

              • Aussie Pub` Brawler

                BULL-shite yr-self!
                geneticists say OTW!
                “Bell Curve”/”Race, Evolution and Behaviour” (J P Rushton) etc…..

              • Mitch Berg

                “There is nothing inferior about genetics of black people”

                Not to feed the troll, but…as PJ O’Rourke said, “it’s not as if you took Thurgood Marshall’s income away, you’d find him selling crack at Union Station”.

                Black communities that have managed to maintain their family cohesion and avoid the penetration of the violence-happy “urban” culture have crime rates comparable with everyone else; low.

                By the way – while “non-violent resistence” got all the headlines, the Civil Rights movement would have been drowned in the crib without lots of armed black people, who did the heavy lifting of the movement outside the major cities and their media spotlight.

                Recommended read: “That Non-Violent Stuff Will Get You Killed”, a history by someone who was there:


              • Aussie Pub` Brawler

                geneticists say OTW, i’m afraid!

        • tawster

          We already redistribute wealth. Sadly, it redistributes to the wealthy.

          But yes, violence in society centers on problems in wealth disparity. And in the USA we have a tremendous wealth disparity. That is the real problem.

      • W Wilson

        Look, If the pro gun lobby in congress started working on the issues that, they say are the cause of mass shootings and inner city violence, something might get done. Instead we have hand wringing and empty platitudes from the right. I am not anti-gun, I am fine with people owning guns but in our culture where there is little social cohesion you can’t assume that the guy with an arsenal at his house is not going to use it on people he has philosophical differences with. If taking guns away won’t put an end to the epidemic of mass shootings what will? I am all ears.

        • SaraB

          Not all conservatives are walking around packing pistols and not all liberals are against the 2nd amendment. Some of the most generous people I know are conservative, whilst some of the most intolerant are liberals. Why do people assume conservatives aren’t funding or promoting campaigns to address poverty and inequality.
          The breakdown of the nuclear family and poor parenting is a huge problem. Not to mention the fact that mentally ill people are freely roaming the streets. Whereas, 25 years ago, before the mental health facilities, many of these people were institutionalized.

          • W Wilson

            I am mostly aiming my ire at congress. I know a lot of very generous people in both camps.

            • SaraB

              I agree.

        • Aussie Pub` Brawler

          If taking guns away won’t put an end to the epidemic of mass shootings what will?
          almost all “mass shootings” are fake!

          gun violence, how-ever, can be reduced by racial segregation….viz: apartheid;
          most violence in the US is ‘down’ to young, black males; viz: gang-bangers….

        • Mitch Berg

          “If the pro gun lobby in congress started working on the issues that, they say are the cause of mass shootings and inner city violence, something might get done”

          They did. They pushed sentencing enhancements at the federal, state and local levels that added significant hard time for using guns in crimes.

          Where the upcharge was applied, gun crime dropped.

          Most cities, of course – being Democrat sinecures – pled the upcharges away wholesale. Why? *They didn’t want to give the right and their boogeyman the NRA a victory*.

          So how about we let the anti-gun lobby be accountable for a while, shall we?

          • W Wilson

            In the above article the author states that poverty and education are correlated with the murder rate. The NRA’s response to several of the past mass shootings has been to site the lack of adequate support for mental illness. These are the issues that I am referring to not actual gun control.

    • Yokohl Yokel

      Very good points, but it is pretty absurd to think having an armed citizenry is going to stop a government army with ICBMs, tanks and drones..

      • Belasarius

        You need an extremely large Army many millions more than we have now. You have to be willing to be completely ruthless. You need for your Army to stay on your side. So, no. It’s not absurd at all.

      • Philip Attisano

        I agree. It is very possible that a population could overthrow their government. If a government truly is a terrible regime it ends up with an army that loses the will to fight for it. If there was a major uprising against a government who truly is bad, how many soldiers are willing to bomb their own neighborhoods to support a bad dictator. Add to that, we see now that a small group of citizen militias will then start to get support from outside sources. The USA has helped several miltias in their attempts to overthrow their own governments. Imagine Russia and China lending a helping hand to american militas in another civil war.

      • Jonathan Allen

        Outnumbered, under-armed bands of insurgents and rebels have done a pretty good job in recent years of causing a great deal of pain and setback for much larger conventional armies, actually. Turns out winning a war involves a lot more than simply having technologically advanced firepower…

        • z kulinski

          See the history of the war in Vietnam Nam, our government allowed us to be defeated by a near stone age society.

          • Gene Warren

            The Vietnamese that were killing our soldiers (and the French before us) were far, far more advanced than a “stone age society”

            • z kulinski

              Ahhh, not so, if they were not armed by the chineese, supplimented by the chineese and russians, they were actually a stone age society. When we went into the areas were China and Russia had no influence. They used stone arrow points and hand made crossbows, they cooked in stone vessels over open fires. Stone age by definition.

              • Gene Warren

                You can’t judge an entire nation by its hillbillies. Pick up a history book – the Vietnamese had advanced bronze (tools, weapons and art) 3000 years ago. Plus there really weren’t *any* sections of Vietnam untouched by the Chinese – they conquered and ruled Vietnam with no more than short interruptions since the Han dynasty ~ 2000 years ago up through to the French takeover at the end of the 19th century.

      • David Pawson

        As I told a friend who asked if I “need” a bazooka … No, I currently have no need (or desire) to possess a bazooka. HOWEVER, come the day I do, I will remove it from the body of the anti-freedom soldier I just shot with my rifle or handgun.

      • tawster

        An armed guerilla population can mount an effective campaign against a state army. There are many examples of this.

        Also. The alternative is grim: A citizenry that has zero defense.

        In the USA we have more guns in circulation than people. On paper that means every single man, woman and child (in theory) could be armed. A state-run tyrannical regime doesn’t stand a change.

      • SaraB

        Do you think the military personnel is going to disarm their family’s, friends and neighbors. C’mon most of the young people serving would laugh.

      • Peter Quinn

        There are roughly 4 million active duty members of the US military. The military’s own studies show that about 10% of those military personal – some 400,000 – would fire on the American public if ordered to do so by a superior officer. There are 85 million registered gun owners in the US, with at least that many gun owners which are unregistered, and between them own some 300 million guns.Add those numbers to the majority of the active military members who would side with the public.
        So, does the name Custer ring a bell…?

      • Mitch Berg

        It’s an utterly academic question, and a fairly absurd tangent.

        But if it hypothetically came down to that, the armed citizenry wouldn’t attack the ICBMs, the tanks and the drones. They’d attack the truck bringing fuel to the tank. They’d attack the warehouse where the drones spare parts were stored. They’d attack the ICBM crews when they were off duty.

        “The people are the sea that the (rebel) swims in” – Mao Zedong.

        But again, it’s academic.

    • Al Willig

      “Poverty has a greater correlation to violent crime than access to firearms. Education and poverty are directly linked. In short, we don’t have a gun problem in the United States, we have a cultural problem”.

      Poverty rates are virtually equal between the US and the UK, and yet homicide rates are 4 times higher in the US. You’re going to have to go deeper than that in defining our cultural problem.

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    • Dannielle Wood Hixson

      I don’t know where Mr. King is getting his idea that pro-gun folks ever use stats saying that banning guns causes murder rates to rise as their argument against gun control. The point we always use against gun control is exactly what he concluded: the only reason governments want to control firearms is to make it harder for it’s population to overthrow said government.

      • ShadowSandy

        People do get diverted in arguments by this thought though. I used this article just today to explain to someone its a ‘violence’ problem not an object problem. Gun control people love to cherry pick data and then divert the issue to a strawman. You and I are unlikely to fall for it, but others do, frequently. I thank this person for providing the article.

      • Belasarius

        I don’t know if you need to go as far as “overthrowing the government.” An armed citizenry can prevent the government from imposing its will. What has been the result of gun/magazine bans in NY, CO, and CA? There has been very little compliance. Those guns and magazines are still out there.

    • jon doe

      Excellent reporting.

      We need more news like this in America where facts aren’t skewed to fit an agenda.

      • RDPS

        This isn’t news, it’s an editorial, opinion piece.

        • disqus_AVDYxhWaoU

          That’s pretty much the news today lol Except their opinions are bought.

    • Person

      That has to be the most neutral article I’ve read in I don’t know HOW long. Very intriguing and sensible.

      • bondjam2

        Neutral? It is written from one viewpoint only and is hopelessly biased.Uses selective and distorted numbers to make its one sided argument and comes to conclusions which it had decided upon before a single word was written. Your confirmation bias is blinding you to reality.

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    • Nicusor Chirca

      Very well put and written.

    • Ben

      He forgot to include that all other crime in those nations went up, rapes, thefts and assaults, so yes it does nothing to murders.

      • Belasarius

        That’s the major problem with the article. Its not just about murders. Its about every other kind of crime, carjackings, home invasions and burglaries, etc. I lived in Naples, Italy. Many of the ordinary houses I saw were like fortresses. They all had walls with broken glass on top, steel doors with heavy locking bars in steel frames. Thieves over there go after houses with wreckers and pull the doors out of the frames. I tend to think people defending their homes with firearms would reduce the need for physical security measures that double the cost of house.

        • Gene Warren

          True, but Italy has also long had pervasive issues with corrupt, ineffectual law enforcement that far exceed anything we have here.

          • disqus_AVDYxhWaoU

            So you are suggesting the US is to large to fail?

      • bondjam2

        Sources for these outragious claims?

        • Ben

          The government websites of course!

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    • Rob Richardson

      brb, looking up “homemade AR15” on youtube. Thanks for the tip.

    • peter knight

      Good article, however if gun control didn’t work, Wyatt Earp and other sheriff’s would not tell all riding into town to check their guns in at the sheriff’s office until they left..there was a reason the called it the old wild west..
      Clearly at some point in our past the law of the land saw fit to temporarily restrict gun carrying while within town limits..

      • Thomas Frey

        Your suggestion that Wyatt Earp and other sheriff’s did what they did to protect other cowboys and girls is amusing. It was to protect themselves in that they would have an advantage to force others to comply with their demands. Crazy cowboys still had plenty of weapons like knives and clubs to kill each other in their drunken state. Besides if that gun control really worked, the gun fight at the OK corral would never have happened. Maybe our founding fathers were really drunk rowdy cowboys?

      • jon doe

        Our culture has way more to do with our propensity for violence than guns. This is why we cannot compare ourselves to other nations when it comes to gun violence and control.

        The second amendment is here to stay. This article exemplifies, in a non partisan way, why reactionaries on both sides are wrong.

        And even if we did create more laws to restrict firearms, what happens when another shooting happens? More cries for gun control. It’s a never ending cycle so Americans need to stand up and resist.

        And most, if not all of the laws that people want to enact are already on the books, they’re just not being enforced…kind of like illegal immigration

      • Mark Close

        And when an outlaw was released from the pokey, the first two items that were returned to him?

        His horse and .. his gun!

        Sounds like a plan. 8)

    • No Hyphen American

      Stop it, you’re not going to get our guns.

    • Responsible carrier

      To answer your question teejay, I’m smoking a big pipe of reality.

    • R Smith

      The Anti-2As’ creations, the gun-free zones & gun free citizen cities, have by being brought into existence, increased the incidence of murder and mass murder by firearms, within these zones and cities. While the rest of the country, as a whole, has seen a decrease of violent crime, if I understand the stats correctly. The continuation of these gun-free zones, and gun-free citizen cities, do two things. They increase the likelihood of people being murdered by firearms, within these areas, and they provide real life sources of carnage, for their creators to use as instruments of terror, to terrorize voters, in the hope of gaining voter support, for their unrelenting crusade against the 2A and our constitution. The Anti-2As have unceasingly ignored the stats, and sound discussions, in opposition to these Anti-2A laws, while citizens continue to be murdered at a higher rate, within these areas, than the rest of the country. What does this suggest to you all, about those who lead the Anti-2A efforts?

      • skeptical123

        So for the hundreds of mass shootings this year, how many private citizens took out the crazed gunmen? what’s that statistic?

        • Danny

          Well could be because almost all happened in a gun free zone. Mr 123. No one but the murderers had guns.

        • Danny

          Not that if would matter to you but that us the way hiylers,nazi Germany started they took sll the people’s gun. And the sheep went along with. We have a government in america that is raping our country . Our forefathers knew this could happen and put the 2nd amendment in our constitution for that purpose.

          • Gene Warren

            The Nazis actually loosened the previous gun laws, unless you were a Jew (or Communist etc).

        • skeptical123

          There’s been 355 mass shootings (scenarios with 4 plus people hit) in the US this year and in all of those cases, they were all in gun free zones. I saw a guy who carried a pistol on him legally in Oregon at the Junior college, former military and he said, he didn’t want to get shot by the cops, so he was willing to defend himself, but not others. Maybe we ought to arm everyone when they get their social security numbers, more guns will solve the problem, I’m sure that’s the proper solution

          • Kalsu

            Using long weekends in Chicago to pump those numbers does nothing but create a false narrative. The source of the stats is an unofficial, crowd-sourced compilation of
            news articles of shootings by members of the anti-gun Reddit sub-forum
            GunsAreCool which is also mirrored on the Mass Shooting Tracker website.

            • skeptical123

              Are you saying that if you went to those cited incidents and asked to see the police reports, that would be inaccurate data? how do you define 355 incidents where 4 or more people got shot? 355 shootings?

              • Kalsu

                Does that include kids playing paintball and shooting each other? Because that stat site sure did.

        • jon doe

          A better question how many of these new laws would’ve stopped these mass shootings?

          And how many shootings happened in gun free zones?

          Hint to question 1: less than how many were killed by law abiding gun owners like the one in Texas.

          Stop being a partisan hack. Even when faced with nonpartisan statistics you just can’t help yourself, proving the author’s assertions that you gun control nuts know nothing about firearms. Zip guns and bullets can be made by an idiot w access to YouTube. It’s the culture, not the guns

          If you want a gun free society move. Our constitution states we have a right to protect ourselves, we are afforded these rights until the point where it’s proven we cannot handle them and that’s handled on a per person basis. That’s called living in a free society

          • skeptical123

            Can you point me to where I said anything about passing gun legislation? As a former gun owner, I could care less whether your rights are regulated or not. Doesn’t affect me, your the ones that are so damn worried. Maybe you gun owners oughta figured out how to make mass shootings not the norm and stand up for those who own them and don’t cause trouble and find a solution to the high gun killings that your culture’s responsible for. It’s your rights that are at risk, not mine, I’m not worried as much as you and the wack jobs at the NRA are.

        • Belasarius

          There weren’t hundreds of mass shootings this year. How many of them took place in areas where personal carry was allowed? Ans: Almost none…all gun free zones except for the ones used by the murderers.

        • disqus_AVDYxhWaoU

          hundreds this year?

        • R Smith

          Hundreds? Almost all mass shootings have occurred in gun free zones, I believe there may be 1 exception or few at the most.

          • LostInUnderland

            yes… hundreds.

            • R Smith

              Here’s some interesting info that national media mostly ignores.

              • LostInUnderland

                I am unsure what information you were trying to share. That is a site with a compilation of many articles.

                • R Smith

                  Armed Citizen

                • R Smith


                • R Smith


        • R Smith

 This is a good place to view articles about bad guys being foiled by armed citizens.

        • R Smith

          How many private citizens are allowed to carry a firearm in the gun free zones and cities, where most of these mass murders have happened?

    • Mike Breen

      The UK firearms reform act changed nothing. It could not be responsible for any increase in crime, any decrease. Banning one type of gun from licenced gun club members forming 0.1 percent of the population who would have gone to jail for as much as threatening a person with that gun, changed nothing for criminals.
      Those who go to great efforts to find things to blame on the UK handgun will be making fools of themselves until they understand what the situation was prior to the ban, who the ban effected and what difference it made to criminals. Once they understand that, they will stop blaming the ban for anything at all.

      • $2264802

        This article is too old, and I revived it. D’oh!

        • R Smith


      • Responsible carrier

        I didn’t see anybody blaming this ban, just pointing out that it accomplished nothing. Why alienate the populous from the government for no effect? I’m not well versed in what’s going on over the pond there, what was the point then?

        • Mike Breen

          “”Why alienate the populous from the government for no effect?””

          What makes you think the government alienated the populace? They didn’t, far from it. NRA propaganda may suggest otherwise, but they are liars.
          1: Very few owned the banned guns, roughly 1/960 or 0.1 percent of the population.
          2: Nobody in the UK could legitimately use one for defence, much less carry one.
          3: When one of the 0.1 percent went on a rampage with a handgun killing 16 children and a teacher, a weapon with no legitimate use outside of a gun club, the public were not angered at a proposed ban, they were all for it.
          There are plenty of claims that the UK gun ban caused an increase in everything from murder, to violent crime to the increase in the price of bananas. It’s all a load of crap.
          A ban effecting one type of gun owned by 0.1 percent of the population who could not use those guns for defence changed nothing when it comes to crime. The 1997 firearms reform act changed nothing for criminals.

          • LostInUnderland

            From what I gather, the British just like living in a society where they do not have to bother about guns. No one has them and they are happy with that situation. My children may be safer playing on a playground surrounded by armed guards, but would they be happier? I think we are setting the bar for ourselves pretty low when we let fear decide our course.

            • Mike Breen

              “”From what I gather, the British just like living in a society where they do not have to bother about guns. No one has them and they are happy with that situation.””

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    • cowcharge

      AND “we have a generation of people that do not have the coping skills necessary to deal with reality”? AND? THAT’S THE WHOLE PROBLEM!

      • jon doe

        It’s a big part of it, yes. Our culture is the main reason why we’re violent.

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    • Truth Slinger

      Tench Coxe,
      a delegate to the Continental Congress from Pennsylvania, who wrote in 1789,
      “As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt
      to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to
      defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow
      citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and
      bear their private arms.”

    • Truth Slinger

      Let’s get something straight; the NRA doesn’t NOT and NEVER HAS stated the “gun ownership prevents murders”. This is ABJECT SPIN and willful deception to state such an open lie. The NRA openly states that gun ownership SAVES LIVES and keeps the GUN OWNER from being murdered not that it prevents any particular crime. Strange how liberals can’t connect the dots on a simple sentence when there are only TWO DOTS. The same applies to blaming “poverty” for crime. Poverty is an EXCUSE to commit crimes but is NOT and never has been the origin of gun crime. This article stinks because it is rotten to the core and it’s probably the author’s dead brain that smells.

      • jon doe

        Move to Europe if you don’t like the second amendment.

        Oh wait, even the EU allows gun ownership. It’s the culture, man. You partisan hacks are so brainwashed you deny what’s right in front of you. Politics have truly become poisonous in America

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    • DuckyRider

      What I, as a reformed liberal, cannot fathom in all of the anti-gun arguments is that the right to possess a firearm is burned into the constitution. Yes, guns can be dangerous. They can get into the wrong hands and be used to cause ill. But preventing them from being in the hands of a sane and healthy citizen is not within the purview of the government to prevent.

      There is no constitutional right to drive a motor vehicle. No one would dispute that motor vehicles annually create massive carnage. Even cell phones result in distracted and dangerous driving. No one is thinking about eliminating either one. We don’t even call out for the phone makers to install a defeat switch that prevents a phone from being used when driving.

      Maybe you get my point. Life is full of dangerous things. Very few are codified in the constitution; but the right to bear arms is. Thinking that guns should be banned is ludicrous. Frankly, it would be more in line with the law of this nation to prevent us from driving or owning cell phones than from purchasing and possessing guns.

      And the second or any amendment to the Constitution doesn’t say, if guns become implicated in societal ills, then all bets are off and the government can decide to make them inaccessible to citizens.

      • Truth Slinger

        You need to pay attention. Your socialist brainwashing is showing and it’s making you look silly. All you have to do is simply read what the framers of our nation wrote. It’s all spelled out in utter simplicity. Gun ownership WAS BURNED into the psyche of ALL of the early Americans because the KNEW that it was NECESSARY for 1) survival 2) self-protection (DUH) 3) a well-regulated militia (NOT A STANDING ARMY which they all feared and which they advised against). If you do your homework instead of just carrying your books to school, you’ll find that the matter is extremely simple and quite LOGICAL (a thing that liberals seem to have tossed into the ocean and forgot….the very reason they are called “the loony left” since they can’t connect the dots when there are only two of them).

        • Kathryn Hager

          Hey, Truth Slinger (not), since when have you been a member of a well-regulated militia? It’s an AMENDMENT. We have changed our constitution before, as we evolved as a society (slavery) and we can always do it again. The 2ND Amendment is not religious doctrine, although folks of the insane Right believe it is. We need to find realistic new ground on this issue. We are currently in free-fall with gun violence in this country and we have no need to further support the NRA and gun lobby at the expense of more lives. Shake yourself out of that paranoia about our gevernemtn coming to get your guns and control your life and join us in the real world.

        • Kathryn Hager

          Hey, Truth Slinger (not), since when have you been a member of a well-regulated militia? It’s an AMENDMENT. We have changed our constitution before, as we evolved as a society (slavery) and we can always do it again. The 2ND Amendment is not religious doctrine, although folks of the Insane Right believe it is. We need to find realistic new ground on this issue. We are currently in free-fall with gun violence in this country and we have no need to further support the NRA and gun lobby at the expense of more lives. Shake yourself out of that paranoia about our government coming to get your guns and control your life and join us in the real world.

          • Stacy Flit

            The Bill of Rights are the the first ten amendments to the Constitution but there were 14 to start and the intent was to put them in the Constitution, the debate you can read in The Federalist Papers. So in actuality they are part of The Constitution of the United States of America and ratified by the states. They did not “amend” but gave power of Rights to the People, 10 of them and that is all we have but it is enough. Government has power but it has no Rights. Government works very hard to take away Rights and that IS the real world. Nobody will protect you and your life, which is your inherent Right, but you. The NRA supports all our Rights and they promote safety and training which is the most logical thing to embrace especially for those that keep saying “common sense” but display none. Most who oppose our Rights have never touched a firearm and have an unhealthy fear that threatens us all. If they were to participate in training they would find as most do a certain relief and enjoyment that while dangerous and deadly, firearms can be fun. Above all the sense that one can defend themselves if necessary is comforting. But training is the key. Young children who learn vary rarely are injured or killed unlike those who are taught fear but have natural curiosity that leads to tragedy. from firearms use. A free society giving up the Right to own firearms is a mistake they can make only once. That IS the real world. You cannot guarantee what will happen to generations to come yet you want to take that chance for them? You do not have that Right nor can you see into the future. It is you that will be spending the lives you claim to hold sacred, sacred but stupid is basically what you are saying. You have not learned from the past but you want to control the future and decide for them even though you will not be there. I won’t gamble with those odds the past has taught. Laws do not stop the action or the intent by any means but only enable and justify a punishment. When a government starts making laws over citizens that have no Rights or power or the tools to control that government then punishments will be administered often and severely. That will be your real world if you fail to think it through and the real world for a long time after you are gone.

          • Trbig

            Kathryn, you are incorrect. On all points. The Federalist papers point out exactly what and who the “Militia” were. Not the standing armies, not the reserves, but we the people. An armed populace. The first 10 “Amendments” to the Constitution are our Bill of Rights. These aren’t rights granted to us by anyone, they are rights given to us by our creator, and as such, are not for amending by a 2/3 vote. Sorry to burst your hope bubble on that one. Also, the NRA isn’t some large behemoth corporation with an out of touch select few making the decisions. The NRA is millions of law abiding citizens, supporting the fight against the destruction of our rights by uneducated zealots like you.

            Lastly, we are not in a free-fall with gun violence. We’ve actually been dropping and since Obama came to office and the nation has been buying up firearms at record paces, gun violence has continued dropping. What has increased is the liberal reporting of every shooting to politicize something to try to take the Constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens. If you take out just 3 lib controlled cities like Detroit, Wash. D.C, and New York where gun control is highest (How’s that working for them?) then the U.S. is one of the lowest countries in the world for gun violence. Funny you speak of those on the “Insane Right” as you spew off ignorant, unintelligent, insane drivel you’ve obviously been too lazy to actually check the facts on.

            • jon Mark

              What a beat down you gave that Looney!! Your Fantastic, but please, you are arguing with an idiot.

            • Chester

              While I agree with a lot that the NRA does, it HAS become very much an out of touch corporate giant, just like GM and IBM. The “leadership” has all but abandoned the original aims of the group and has decided all nuts, loonies, and other problem personalities should be just as free to buy and sell guns and ammunition as the properly vetted and licensed firearms and explosives dealers.

            • john_willow

              Sorry, bud. The Constitution was made by people, and can be amended by people, as it already has been. All it takes is majority vote of the states. The NRA are shills for the gun industry. Shameless shills, at that. The federalist papers are not the Constitution. They are opinions by different delegates. The militias were trained white landowners. They were not the garden-variety paranoid, potentially dangerous gun heads we see today.

          • Icorps1970

            The militias were nationalized to form the National Guard which is NOT THE MILITIA. Its a Federal Reserve force. This was a HUGE mistake in the light of the NG being mobilized and deployed for long periods during the war on terror. This even the limited scope of their duties under the governors of the various states was lost. If you dig into enough laws you may find that you could STILL be called out if it came to it. So far as the gov’t. How about FEMA bringing in foreign troops if they need them for an “emergency”. Don’t tell me this is a “black helicopter paranoid dream” its detailed in the material studied for tests some federal employees take. Yeah, I have personally seen it direct from a Federal Agency. Personally I would take offense if foreign troops or police (you HAVE heard about the foreign police working in the US right?) patrolling my area to “protect me”. I do not require protection of this sort. Your problem is that you have forgotten or never knew, that one cannot plan for what someone’s INTENTIONS are, one must plan based on their CAPABILITY. I don’t worry about the Gov’t coming for the guns of the population in general. But individual groups are at risk and HAVE had their firearms take with nothing other than an order given. AND there WAS a blanket confiscation during Katrina that cost the owners thousands in some cases due to damage and neglect over the long period it took to get them restored (if they all were) to their owners. So your condescending statements about “paranoia” is based on lack of information or willful ignorance. ITS ALREADY HAPPENED.

            • john_willow

              Militias were used in colonial times to put down insurrections. Read your national history.

          • Icorps1970

            Actually violent crime and murder is WAY down in the US. But you need to look for the data, its from the FBI BTW, since its not going to be in the “news”. So you might want to cut the NRA some slack. Australia’s gun confiscation did not increase or decrease murders in the long run but they have had a massive increase in violent crime including rapes. Australian women are 3 times as likely to be raped compared to American women. Gun bans in various countries have resulted in no change in the murder rates. According to my readings. Though in the immediate aftermath there were significant increases (double in some cases) in murders lasting 1-2 years then the rate fell back to the preban levels. Look it up. Its all out there.

            • Mike Breen

              “”but they have had a massive increase in violent crime including rapes. Australian women are 3 times as likely to be raped compared to American women.””

              Absolute nonsense and a case, yet again, of not comparing like for like. Closer scrutiny will show you why it’s nonsense but I suspect the result would not suite you. It’s along the lines of claiming UK “violent crime” is through the roof and increased after the ban of 1997.

              The act of the matter is comparing FBI UCR figures and UK Home Office figures gives a bull droppings result because the FBI record only four categories of very serious and truly violent crimes, whereas the UK Home Office record playground squabbles between children with no injuries involved, offensive emails and texts.

              Of course, the face value result of just looking at headline figures may suite Gun Owners of America and the NRA nicely, but the claims they then make to the general public based on these comparisons are nothing more than lies and they know it.

              Google “Why is the rape rate in Australia so high?” and you will get the real reason why women are three times more likely to be raped, it’s about reporting and false conclusions by fools and those with an agenda using that reporting for there own means.

            • john_willow

              I’ve read the Australian crime statistics. You are peddling false information.

          • Responsible carrier

            The fact is, the government is restricting our rights, the amendments to the Constitution are inalienable unit abolished, therefore the government is using control tactics, and will continue until met with resistance ( not necessarily violent either)

          • Thomas Frey

            Gun violence is not in free fall and to say as much only proves you are not doing your homework. Gun related violence and crimes are only a small percentage of all crimes and violence. Gun control does nothing to stop criminals from having guns or stopping criminals from selling guns to other criminals. We have all the laws we need to prosecute violent perpetrators of crime. It has been proven over and over that gun control has no effect on preventing crime and only makes victims more appealing for a criminal knowing that the victim is likely unarmed. If you want to curtail violence then the two most obvious real issues are mental health care and education. Your suggestion that gun owners suffer from paranoia and are likely to be the next mass shooter is offensive and only affirms your lack of knowledge on the subject. I guess by your standards our founding fathers were paranoid gun loving crazies too. Btw, since you are so fond of gun control or banning guns maybe we should insist that all dumbacrats and retardicans have all their security details hand in their firearms. This would be a great show of faith in their belief that possession of a firearm is tantamount to a person likely to become a violent criminal.

            • Yokohl Yokel

              Since when were mass shooters not gun owners? Who else is likely to be the next mass shooter?

              • Thomas Frey

                So all gun owners are a mass shooter about to happen?
                By that logic you must be a serial killer about to happen?
                Or you are a drunk driver about to happen since you drink and have a licence to drive.

                Its called due process.

                • Yokohl Yokel

                  Before he pulled the trigger, Robert Dear was a law-abiding gun-owner.
                  Before they pulled the trigger, the husband and wife team were (perceived) law-abiding gun-owners
                  So why didn’t the FBI and other LE find it suspicious as these murderers armed themselves to the teeth and, in the case of our Muslim friends, bought legal supplies to manufacture bombs?
                  Because arming yourself to the teeth is business as usual in a culture of violence. Because we shrink at registration, and shriek that it’s the next step towards disarming our populace. Frankly, if you think a bunch of yahoos who watched one too many Rambo movies can stop the largest most sophisticated army in the world, just ask Iraqis or the Afghans how well that turned out.

                  • Thomas Frey

                    If you want to hold someone responsible for the situation then point the finger at your government and LE. It is there job to do good old fashion police and surveillance and develop information assets. Just because our government and LE have an intelligence void will never be justification for continuing to erode our rights.

                    Fact is that the Muslim community in this nation is a threat and has to be monitored. Anyone that is not willing to face that fact is the problem. Our government and LE can make the effort to do their job before they cry they need more gun control.

                    Also the men and women in our armed forces are our mothers, fathers, daughters and sons. Regardless of what the government promises, the majority of those will keep their oath and uphold the constitution. The same cannot be said of UN troops that are beginning to show a presence in our nation.

                    • DanD

                      You do realize there were more ideologically motivated violent crimes targeted at Muslims last year than there carried out by them. By an extremely significant margin?

                  • Frankly, if you think a bunch of yahoos who watched one too many Rambo
                    movies can stop the largest most sophisticated army in the world, just
                    ask Iraqis or the Afghans how well that turned out.

                    From the perspective of ISIS and the Taliban, it turned out pretty well, actually…

                  • john_willow

                    At the first sign of the SWAT team, these self-styled Rambos would come out with their hands up.

                • LostInUnderland

                  Mass shooters are a subset of gun owners just as drunk drivers are a subset of drivers.
                  People that do not own guns are not going to be mass shooters.
                  People that do not drive will not be drunk drivers. (or people that do not drink)
                  However, that does not mean that all drivers are going to drive drunk or that all gun owners are going to be mass shooters. The thing is, we cannot know which ones (of the relevant set) will and which ones will not. That is not an argument for banning guns, driving, or drinking. It is a call to be reasonable. Your hyperbole is dishonest.

                  • Thomas Frey

                    Your assumption that mass murder is only committed with a gun is out right not true. Only a fraction of all mass murder over the course of a year or time span of years involves a gun.

                    We also don’t know which police officer is going to kill an innocent person anymore than we know who the next murderer will be. Does that mean we should ban law enforcement?

                    Your concerns regarding gun violence are not more important than others desire to exercise their right to self-defense.

                    The continued idealog that guns only in the hands of LE or the government equals a safer society is false.

                    Maybe you should put more energy into asking our government leaders why they have failed to stop mass murder and terrorism in the USA. Isn’t that their job?

                    Don’t tread on us.

                    • LostInUnderland

                      How does the statement “Mass shooters are a subset of gun owners” lead you to assume that I believe all mass murder is committed with a gun? Also, why do you assume that I want to ban guns? Can you provide support for your statement that “Only a fraction of all mass murder over the course of year or time span of years involves a gun”? That may be true, but seems unlikely.
                      I do not have the answer to a less violent society, but I have never advocated banning guns. However, denying that there is a problem is less than helpful.

                      • Thomas Frey

                        Your right. I was thinking mass murder and not MASS SHOOTING. Mass shootings could be gang bangers going at it and as such not relevant to the gun debate. Mass shootings have little or nothing to do with mass murder stats even though Hillary C. would like us all to not make the distinction. Law abiding citizens don’t have mass shootings as often as criminals.

                        Read this document by the Federation of American Scientists report that is published by the Congressional Research Service.


                        Read it and then you can verify the stats yourself.

                        America being a free nation has always had a culture where people kill each other, just like all other societies. Ever heard of the Wild West? I think what makes us different is that our culture is more free than any nation ever has and with that freedom comes a price. That price is that people will do what people do, and as long as we are a free society, they will continue to do those things.

                        Our current situation only seems worse due to the number of people we have in the nation now and the obsessive less than accurate mass media coverage. As I understand crime rates, while we have had some ups and downs, when considering population numbers and densities, we are not really experiencing more crime. We are experiencing higher frequency due to the volume of people.

                        Problem or not, any ideas that more gun control or banning of guns will have a significant impact on crime is false and has been proven. Switzerland is a developed nation with almost every citizen owning a gun and crime rate is very low. France (EU) has some of the most excessive gun control in the developed nations and still terrorists managed to get real assault weapons and explosives. None of which could have possibly come from the USA unless it was military ordinance from the Baltic wars.

                        If you want to hold someone responsible for the situation then point the finger at your government and LE. It is there job to do good old fashion police and surveillance and develop information assets. Just because our government and LE have an intelligence void will never be justification for continuing to erode our rights.

                        The only problem I see are Americans that are uninformed and are too quick to give up rights because they don’t understand how important the Constitution and Bill Of Rights are to the continued existence of our free democratic republic. I am convinced this is the result of all the government cut backs to education. Uninformed people are easier to manipulate and control.

                      • john_willow

                        In the Wild West you had to leave your guns at the edge of town. Yet another American who knows nothing about his own history. And you don’t know anything about Switzerland. Guns are very highly regulated there, and designed to be used by the national militia. You likely couldn’t even get a gun there.

                      • Thomas Frey

                        LOL, not every town had that rule and for you to suggest as much only proves your lack of knowledge. The towns that did, didn’t do it for safety, they did it do that only certain people would have guns. You know Law Enforcement. Oh and not like all LE was above reproach in the old west either. Your utopian view of the wild west is misplaced at best.

                        Switzerland does not have a society that is a free as ours either.

                        Last I checked the only way anyone visiting a nation other than theirs could get a gun was illegally. Assuming you are visitor and not moving there. Even moving there highly unlikely especially in socialist areas like EU.

                        Btw, the gun debate is not a debate. See we have a guaranteed right to own a fire arm. The constant attacks by the anti-gun nut jobs in the face of undeniable facts is nothing less than sedition.

                        Facts like:
                        Violent Crime rate lowest it has been in 40 years.
                        More guns owned by Law Abiding citizens than ever before.
                        Most people in our nation than ever before.
                        Homicide / Mass Murder rates that make us the safest free nation on the planet.

                        Destroying the foundation of the constitution will only invite tyranny.

                        If you think there is a place to live where you can be free and safer than the USA, move there.


                    • john_willow

                      You are nuts, bud. You cannot commit mass murder with a knife. All the mass murders in the U.S. are being committed with guns. “Don’t tread on us”? Paranoid much?

                  • john_willow

                    You have far more mass shooters than any other Western country. Don’t delude yourself. No one outside of the military should be able to get their hands on automatic weaponry.

                    • Gray

                      Why? There have only been 3 legally owned automatic weapons used in crime in the last 80 years. One belonged to a rich doctor, one was the personal weapon of a cop and the third was a police department owned weapon, used by a member of that department who it was issued to.

            • john_willow

              There are plenty of stats to show how often guns are used to commit suicide, to inflict domestic violence, and in disputes that turn deadly. Everyone is a “responsible” gun owner. Until they’re not.

              • Thomas Frey

                We live in a free society, so nothing you can do, or laws you can pass, that will stop suicide. That is up to the people around that person, if there are any.

                Disputes with guns? So like two groups of gang bangers going at it?

                Domestic violence can be for allot of reasons that are social in nature, period.

                Your logic here is a complete fail. Just because some people cannot control themselves or choose to become a criminal, will never be a good reason or excuse to take rights away from law abiding citizens.

                How long before a similar argument is used to take away the 1st, 4th or 5ht?

                The 2nd amendment guarantees our freedom. That you fail to see this just means you are uneducated with respect to our constitution.

          • Peter Quinn

            In the “real world”, you are more likely
            to die by accidental drowning than by
            being shot and killed by a stranger.
            Those are the FACTS, are they are not
            in dispute. Stop buying into the media hype…

        • Manni

          What is your definition of freedom?

        • Chester

          Sounds a lot like you are describing the righteous right, the ones that only know one answer to any question, the preacher says its so.

        • john_willow

          I’m really glad you’re not a cop anymore (assuming you’re not lying). You are hostile and ignorant. You know nothing about your own country’s history of gun control, nor do you seem to understand the difference between a world of muskets and the world of modern weaponry. And you are an obsessive gun head. Dangerous combination.

          • Mick Price

            Notice that you call him “hostile and ignorant” while being far more hostile and not providing a single bit of information that contradicts him. As for the history of gun control in America, it’s a sad one of brutal racism and murder.

      • Truth Slinger

        Here; I’ve done some homework for you: Tench Coxe,
        a delegate to the Continental Congress from Pennsylvania, who wrote in 1789,
        “As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt
        to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to
        defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow
        citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and
        bear their private arms.” What the previous (at least) TWO administrations have done and what the current one is doing should be met with armed resistance so as to preserve our rule of law and right protected by (not given by) the Constitution and Bill of Rights. This isn’t even considering the fact that we have a natural RIGHT to protect ourselves from lunatics and criminals. I just don’t understand why liberals have such a suicidal attitude thinking that criminals will obey the law (an oxymoron if there ever was one) and why they think that someone else will protect them (e.g. “when seconds count, the police are only minutes away). I was a police officer. NONE of the 300 officers on our department ever saved anyone’s life that was lost by gun violence. We showed up, took a report, and called the coroner. Time to face the fact, liberals; you “logic” is illogical and it’s preventable with only a small amount of homework (eg Google).

        • jon Mark

          Thanks for the homework TS, but don’t you know that the liberal mind does not turn on evidence or reason, or common sense. While they fancy themselves educated, they actually have very little sense, common or otherwise. They stand at the window and proclaim to the see the world, not realizing that they only see what world is exposed through their little window. They are of the lot that will read some puffed up propaganda showing some country that by getting ride of guns, reduced gun violence, never mind that non-gun violence in general skyrocketed, and proclaim that this model if applied in America, would likewise reduce violence, (notice how they shift the debate from gun violence to violence hoping no one notices). And then they will hide any evidence that may show the lunacy of their claim. They also do not mention anything with regard to the second amendment, and it’s role in restraining tyrants.

          I for one would rather go up against another man with a gun, having a gun myself, than I would go up against someone with a baseball bat, I not having a bat.

          Liberals are capable of looking at violent criminal gun crimes and blame law abiding citizens for their access to guns notwithstanding that guns are already outlawed for criminals. They are the same people that say you can’t legislate morality. That if you deny something like alcohol, or drugs, it will only drive that market underground. But then think that you can make guns illegal, and those criminals who desire to gun, will not be able through the same blackmarket to get one. That liberals are stupid does not spell tell the whole story. Fact is they are dangerous

          • LostInUnderland

            The inability to legislate morality applies to gun ownership also. Just as some may want marijuana legalized and regulated, many want guns to stay legal, but be regulated. No one (that I know of; anecdotal) wants children to be free to buy marijuana. On the other hand, No one (same unconfirmed no one) wants guns to be completely banned. I believe most people want sensible regulation since we cannot count on the morality of our fellow citizens.

            Unrelated, but serious question: How CAN we make society more moral? You cannot force it or legislate it.. but how do you nudge it that way? The answer to that question would solve the entire gun debate as well as a few other cultural debates we struggle with as a nation.

          • john_willow

            Stupidity should be your middle name. The other Western countries have far lower levels of gun violence than the States. The stats are easy to find if you have anything resembling a brain. There is no magical black market. That is another delusion of yours. Criminals either steal guns from improperly secured houses or they get straw buyers. Both of those problems can be dealt with.

        • john_willow

          You don’t even know the difference between one delegate’s opinion and the actual policies of the original government, which I have described in another comment. You’re in no position to be trying to educate people. And you have NO evidence that vigilantes with guns are preventing gun violence. But nice try.

      • jon Mark

        Actually, Ducky you may want to do a little research on the subject of your statement “no constitutional right to drive a motor vehicle”. I think evidence may exist to show this is an actual constitution right or rather natural right. I will let you arrive at you own conclusion. Just wanted to make sure you are aware that there is another side to that argument.

        “The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to
        transport his property thereon, by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or
        automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited
        at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life,
        liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Under this constitutional guaranty
        one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination
        along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting
        himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor
        disturbing another’s rights, he will be protected, not only in his
        person, but in his safe conduct.”

        • Icorps1970

          Try doing it without a drivers lic. The license removes it from being a “right” and makes it s privilege granted by the state.

          • jon Mark

            I hear you. Tons of internet links say, “no license needed”, but nearly zero show evidence that anyone actually gets away with their advice.

        • Responsible carrier

          Driving is absolutely a privilege, only citation I need is the letter from Pennsylvania department of motor vehicles to my brother stating simply, your driving privileges have been revoked.

          • jon Mark

            May I ask why it is that you are desiring that you brothers driving privileges be revoked?

            • Responsible carrier